OK - what's the best crimping die for .44 Magnum?

[AJMD429]

I bought about 250 rounds of 44 Mag ammo as a kid, and reloaded those cases over and over for a Super Blackhawk and Marlin 1894. I used a Lee 'Classic Loader' (the kind you whack with a mallet), but got ammo that would shoot 3-4" at 100 yards every time.

From college until recently, I used factory ammunition, and just kept the empties, for 'someday'. I've reloaded some .38 special for handguns, and several 'rifle' rounds with bottleneck cartridges, mostly on a Lee Turret press plus a few on a Rockchucker. Most of the dies I used so far for the rifle loads have been Lee, including their collet-like 'factory crimp' die. I'm getting The rifle/bottleneck ones have all come out decently accurate, but I really didn't shoot much of the .38's from a rifle, or pay much attention to accuracy as they were just light plinking rounds I used for folks who hadn't shot before to get used to noise and mild recoil.

Now I'm starting into my big pile of .44 Mag brass.

I posted earlier about inconsistency (mine) with the first 50 I did, due to being distracted, not having my bench free of clutter, and trying like an idiot to save money by using pretty old primers. The 5-shot groups were running 6-8" at 50 yards, so I figured it was my bad.

Today I loaded 50 once-fired cases from the same box, carefully prepped, and was going to see whether my gun liked 20 grains or 21 grains of 2400 behind the Remington 240gr JSP better. CCI Magnum Pistol primers I bought last year were used. The powder is also only one year old, and all stored properly. All charges were individually weighed, bullets carefully seated, and crimped. Even the weather here was good, so out to the range we go.

The 21 grain loads were 'significantly' better - that is, at 50 yards they ran 4" vs. 8"

Three (of my now precious) factory loads followed, and the same gun grouped 3 of them nearly cloverleaf.

I think it is the CRIMP, but I'm not sure.

How much effect do you think the crimp would have on 44 Mags, and what TYPE (or BRAND) of crimp are you getting best results with...?

I know everyone will have their preferences, and dies they dislike, but I can't imagine ANY crimping die would be 'worse' than the little Lee Classic Loader that you hit with a MALLET to crimp the bullet, yet back in those days I got way better results!

There's no WAY I want to go back to 'mallet-crimping' for the major amount of brass I want to reload!

[mikld]

For my 44s I just use the Lee roll crimp die, with seating and crimping separate When using H110 or WC820 I use a heavy roll crimp. I have no COL issues with my Blackhawk or Puma so I just crimp in the groove when shooting 42944 or 429421 Lyman boolits from my molds. It's hard to say what exactly "heavy" is but I compare my crimp to a factory crimp and add a "little"

[AJMD429]

I just reloaded a few rounds using all the same steps but an RCBS crimp die (after separate seating, and I checked overall length and it was consistant). Results were worse - three shots in maybe ten inches at 50 yards.

This is getting annoying! I'm (almost) tempted to get out the old 'mallet' loader and try a few rounds.

Maybe my crimping is way too hard, or way too timid. I suppose I could 'pull' a few factory rounds and some reloads, and see how many taps of the inertia puller it takes, to get a 'feel' for what my crimp is like vs. factory rounds.

Geez - when I was a kid sitting cross-legged on the floor doing this with a Lee Kit, mallet, and watching the Andy Griffith show, I got way better results than now with hundreds of dollars of loading equipment. Go figure...

[J Miller]

You're using 2400 powder:

>Ditch the magnum pistol primers, you don't need them with 2400. I've read many times they cause inconsistent velocities.
>Check your neck tension. 2400 loves a good tight case to bullet fit. If you can see where the base of the bullet is, they're good.
>I've used the crimp ring in my seating dies: RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding, with good results. Here's a picture of my crimps:

Here is a couple pics of factory ammo with tight neck tension and very heavy crimps:


I thought I had a picture of my jacketed bullet crimps, but I can't find it. With jacketed bullets I load them with a tight neck tension then roll the case mouth in till they solidly contact the cannelure. I don't use the extra heavy crimps as seen in the pic above.

You might need to try other bullet / powder combos as well. Sometimes guns are just picky.

Joe

[AJMD429]

Joe, that was a really helpful post, and alot of information. THANKS! I wish it were easier to just 'measure' crimp strength, so I'd know where I'm starting. Maybe pulling a couple factory rounds would educate me.

Now I guess I'll load some up, and crimp five really lightly, five a half turn more, five a whole turn more, etc., and see what the deal is. I have never had this much of an issue with rifle (bottleneck) cartridges being so much worse than factory ammo; usually it is the other way around.

I guess I assumed that straight-wall rifle rounds would be easier than bottleneck, and I'm finding that's not necessarily the case.

I've used the crimp ring in my seating dies

This probably is a stupid question, but - what is a 'crimp ring'?

What gets me is that our family has I think a total of six .44 Mag rifles, and I've not shot all of them myself off the bench and all that, but we've shot each other's guns, and shared the same Winchester 240 gr JSP supply, and it shoots very well in ALL of those guns, as far as I know. I'd think that any individual gun 'finnikiness' wouldn't just show up with reloads vs. factory ammo. Hopefully, that means there is a 'recipe' that will in fact duplicate the factory performance and consistency from not just one, but all, of the guns.

I guess one lesson here is that no matter how much I think I know, I keep learning how little I know...

[meanc]

I'd start the charge at 19gr of 2400 under a 240gr JSP/JHP and work up from there.

I found that load to shoot clover leafs at 50yds out of 5 or 6 of my 44mags including Ruger SBH and Marlin 1894.

Not a real magnum thumper, but still powerful enough for deer past 100yds.

[TedH]

I doubt the only problem is the crimp. Bullet pull, or neck tension is more important than crimp. Just curling the lip firmly into the crimp groove is all you need. If you over crimp with a roll crimp die, you'll see a thin ring of the brass cut off the end. Back off a half turn or so.

You may need to try another powder/bullet combination. A classic load that has always shot well for me is 24.0 gr. of H110 or Win 296 under a 240 gr. Hornady XTP. FWIW, I use the same dies you're using and my loads with the Hornady bullet will shoot clover leaf groups @50 yards out of my Marlin.

[Lefty Dude]

For a consistant crimp of all rounds, the case's should all be trimmed to the same length. I also sort the cases by Mfgr.
44 mags do grow in length and vary in length by Mfgr. I prefer Remington brass for the 44 mag., it seems to be stronger and hold the crimp better than Winchester or Federal. Starline is also excellent brass.
If you are loading close to the top case length is very important, even with a straight case this is very important if you are using the rounds in a Rifle.

Just my .02 cents, for what its worth.

BTW; I am in the process of trimming 500 44 remington cases at this time of varying lengths.

[BigSky56]

If you use a Lee factory crimp die length of cases isnt an issue and neck tension is important neck diameter should be 3 or 4 thousands under bullet diameter especially with heavy recoiling cartridges . danny

[Leverdude]

I'v found the pistol LFC dies do alot better with same length cases. Its really just a fancy roll crimp except it wont squash cases. I usually trim 44's & use the crimper in my seating die, the LFC die also sizes the finished round, not always a good thing it can destroy neck tension when your brass springs back more than the bullet and even worse if you need a .431 bullet but it gets sized to a .429.
I use 2400 alot and find 19 grains a good load. I use Win primers & they only make one now but I'v used mag primers before with good results. I think crimp & neck tension are the keys to consistancy with 2400.

[J Miller]

Joe, that was a really helpful post, and alot of information. THANKS! I wish it were easier to just 'measure' crimp strength, so I'd know where I'm starting. Maybe pulling a couple factory rounds would educate me.

Now I guess I'll load some up, and crimp five really lightly, five a half turn more, five a whole turn more, etc., and see what the deal is. I have never had this much of an issue with rifle (bottleneck) cartridges being so much worse than factory ammo; usually it is the other way around.

I guess I assumed that straight-wall rifle rounds would be easier than bottleneck, and I'm finding that's not necessarily the case.

I've used the crimp ring in my seating dies

This probably is a stupid question, but - what is a 'crimp ring'?

What gets me is that our family has I think a total of six .44 Mag rifles, and I've not shot all of them myself off the bench and all that, but we've shot each other's guns, and shared the same Winchester 240 gr JSP supply, and it shoots very well in ALL of those guns, as far as I know. I'd think that any individual gun 'finnikiness' wouldn't just show up with reloads vs. factory ammo. Hopefully, that means there is a 'recipe' that will in fact duplicate the factory performance and consistency from not just one, but all, of the guns.

I guess one lesson here is that no matter how much I think I know, I keep learning how little I know...

The crimp ring is just a machined shoulder in the seating die. As far as I know all standard seating dies have them. Even the seating die in my Lee Deluxe 4 Die set has one.

I've posted this before, but here is a thread I started a while back over on Handloads.com about the Lee FCD. Has lots of pics of crimps and my overall opinion of it.
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... W=J+Miller

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

I use a roll crimp for all my Pistol caliber reloading, except for the 45ACP and my 40 S&W.
I do however use the LFCD for my 30-30 loading, and other rifle calibers where I shoot & relaod lead. I also use a LFCD for the 44-40's when I reload a 240 gr. SWC. With the thin neck of the 44-40 I like all the tension I can get. I double crimp, roll & then LFCD. This load, the 240 gr. SWC I use for long range CAS/SASS events out to 300 yards. My Son won a pot shoot with this round several years ago. The distance was 200 meters, he beat out several 44 mag. & 45 Colt shooter's. The pot was Cash, and he appreciated the Green. What sweetened the pot was he out- shot his first Cousin who was shooting my Brothers Marlin 94/45 24" Cowboy Limited. And by the way the 44-40 is a Rossi 92/44-40 with a 20" carbine barrel.

[AmBraCol]

I had an interesting chat with Mic McPherson this past summer. Amongst other things we talked about crimp. He maintains that you're best off relying on case/bullet tension. In other words, size your cases and seat the bullet with out belling the mouth more than absolutely necessary. The reason being, brass has some spring to it - lead does not. So when you crimp the mouth of the case the brass will spring back out a bit and thus you'll have a less tight case/bullet fit than before. Make sure you're crimping into the crimp groove and use only as much crimp as necessary to keep the bullet from being forced deeper into the case by the tubular magazine spring etc. In a revolver you'll get better results fighting bullet jump under recoil by using a tight resizer than you will using a heavy crimp. Make sure there's plenty of tension between the case and bullet.

Also, too much crimp will sometimes cause the brass immediately behind the crimp to actually pull away from the bullet. This decreases the bullet/case tension and is not good. Too much crimp will also cause the case mouth to scrape against the sides of the bullet as it pulls free. This is also not good - especially with a cast bullet.

[Buck Elliott]

Maybe.......

You were a better shooter in your younger days...

Or had better eyes.

'course it hasn't happened to any of the rest of us.

Even case length and a good ROLL crimp. I use RCBS & Hornady dies, and have no problem with either.

[Blaine]

I use 240 and 300 grain Aardvark cast boolits and varying amounts of BlueDot (11-14 grains) and a standard CCI primer. I use the Lee Factory Crimp. I've been working through a stash of PMC .44 mag brass, so the most any one of them has been loaded is prolly 4 times. No case damage so far and with the factory crimp die, haven't been paying much attention to brass trimming.

[1886]

For $29.00 and 2 dummy cases, Lee will make you a rifle type crimp die. IMO, the rifle type die is a superior design. Do not let the tech. staff tell you the die can not be made. Lee has made this die for the .44 mag. and the .45 Colt for me. The FCD for the .44-40 could probably be made to work. I think leverluver has used the .44-40 die with the .44 mag. God Bless, 1886.

[AJMD429]

Thanks for all the responses and ideas.

I do think the problem is the crimp, because the same gun (and ageing shooter ) shoots factory loads very well, the cases have been once-fired factory rounds, with primer pockets cleaned, length checked & 'trimmed' (none shaved any brass to speak of), and weighed charges (which I'd not ordinarily do for a handgun), new primers (see below), and the Remington bullets seem to be good quality (ones I weighed were very close). This leaves the crimping.

Further, the Lee 'Factory' crimper did make the groups half the size of the RCBS roll-crimper, suggesting that crimping is an issue, at least - if not the whole issue.

Since I didn't see much difference across the 'spectum' of 21, 20, 19, and 18 grain loads, that also makes me think CRIMP is the guilty party. Like someone mentioned, I'd assumed the 19 or 20 grain loads would be noticeably more accurate; I don't recall the charge I used in the good old days with the little Lee Kit (a 'dipper' full - probably not the one that throws 21.6 grains (I doubt Lee would have suggested that high-octane a load) and I think the next one down threw 17.6, so it was probably a pretty tame load (not to Bambi, though). I'll probably do my next experiment with all 18 or 19 grain loadings. I don't think powder selection should be dooming me, either, again since the 2400 was what I used back in those days and it shot well then.

As far as primers, I don't have any non-magnum large pistol ones on hand, but I will keep that option in mind. I think all my reloading manuals did suggest 'magnum' primers for .44 Mag loads, but it may be sort of an 'across-the-board' recommendation that didn't apply to 2400 powder. I just checked the Alliant site, and their load data all uses CCI 300's not 350's. So THAT could also be an issue...

I will next try to load some rounds with crimps ranging from 'just press fit' (I'll single-load all these test ones, although I'm using the rotary-magazine Ruger which should minimize any set-back potential), all the way to 'tight'- whatever that is.

I also appreciate the difference in Lee FCD's for 'rifle' (the ones with a 4-fingered 'collet') and 'pistol' (with the floating ring), and agree that I like the 'rifle' ones better; a custom one for .44 Mag is tempting, since it IS my favorite cartridge these days.

I'll update the post after that fun experiment. Thanks again, guys.

[alnitak]

Compared to the level of expertise found here on the forum, I am a rank amateur...however, I have had good results with the LFCD with about 3/4 turns of the post (after it touches the bullet) and 19.5 -20 grains of 2400 powder (for a 240 gr. LSWC). All of my loads have been extremely accurate in both my .44 mag Win Trapper and my Gary Reeder customized Super Blackhawk. I am a firm believer in the LFCD and a "solid" crimp for all of the calibers I reload.

[AJMD429]

Well, finally got some reloading and range time this AM, and loaded up some more .44 Mags, using different crimp settings, and using the large pistol primers (Rem 2-1/2) vs. the magnum ones I'd used years ago (CCI 350). I may repeat the tests with the magnum primers just to see how much difference they made (since I have more of them but not the regulars), but it looks like the best crimp is either "all or nothing" - the nice looking ones (sorry don't have pics of the rounds, but they 'looked' like factory ones in terms of a nice roll crimp into the cannelure) didn't shoot very well, just like the same loads with magnum primers. The 'zero crimp' ones just had the bullet seated (and not even that evenly) but no crimp applied (no problem since the test gun has a rotary box magazine). They did really well. Next, some pretty heavy crimps, that laid the brass into the cannelure pretty well - kind of like the way factory .223 or .308 often looks, with maybe a 1/32" part of the brass flattened into the cannelure. Those ones I realized as I loaded them were not all seated to the same depth (like the non-crimped ones above), but I finished them up anyway. The last ones I seated individually, resetting the seating die to it's longest setting and gradually re-stroking the press after 1/4 turns of the seater plug, and checking the round. I only forwarded them to the FCD crimping die after the end of the brass was even with the front of the cannelure, so the brass laid down nicely into the cannelure all the way. Those ones did extremely well and show promise for tweaking with different powder charges (I was using a relatively light load).

Here's the target:



Now, that leaves me wondering a few things:

1. Since the rounds with zero crimp did fairly well, why bother crimping at all? I suppose the only way to answer that is to do some shooting in a revolver to see if they jump forward, and a tubular rifle to see if they push in. Psychologically, I would rather put a bit of a crimp on them, even though putting a 'heavy' one makes me wonder how long the brass will put up with it (I can always keep reloading the same hundred cases and see).

2. Why is my seating die not seating them to uniform depth? I'll have to remove the plug and see how it fits the bullet nose, and set some bullets out nose-down, and see if the cannelures are the same distance from the tip. That should be a fairly easy fix, unless the bullets just aren't uniform (...maybe that's why they were less expensive than the other brand...).

3. I need to decide what to do with the 120 rounds I have left loaded up with CCI 350's; they shot poorly, but are a pain to pull with my little kinetic puller (maybe justify a collet puller but I don't know if they'd work on this bullet). One I pulled last week even threw out the lead and retained the jacket (now that's what I'd call a really firm crimp!). Some had pretty flattened primers, which does make me a bit nervous. My Redhawk is probably my strongest .44 Mag, or maybe my Ruger 77/44, so I could 'pull' them that way, but I need to read up on 2400 pressures with magnum vs. standard primers. I still have my Sierra reloading manual from back then, and it specified CCI 350's with 2400 from 19.5 to 23.3 grains, so I'd think my 'modern' loads with 18.0 to 21.0 grains wouldn't be excessive. (I'm using recent-production powder & primers though, now). I don't have a current Sierra manual to see what they list for primers (if anyone does, I'd appreciate knowing what Sierra says to use now with 2400 powder), but Alliant lists 21.0 grains (no range) for 2400 but using a CCI 300 (standard) primer. They also list the 300 for .480 Ruger, and .45 Colt, so it doesn't look like they are into 'magnum' primers for large pistol cases. SO - I assume that over the years, someone found the pressures too high, ignition unreliable, or perhaps the components have changed enough for it to be an issue.
I guess I shouldn't have assumed that what worked in 1975 would work in 2009, and bought all those large magnum pistol primers...maybe I can find some H-110 to go with them...or swap for standard CCI's. Grrr...

Anyway, a rambling post, but perhaps someone will find it interesting or of help for their current reloading project(s), or have some good advice for me. I think my next session will be to load up with the standard primers, and varying weights of 2400, carefully seating (hope I can get my other seater die to place the bullets more uniformly, or reshape my seater plug), and crimping firmly. Once I get a good load, I'll use up the few Remington 2-1/2's I have and go from there. Maybe look for some H-110 in the interim, since finding 5,000 CCI-300's or Remington 2-1/2's is not too likely these days.

[J Miller]

AJMD,

OK, without re-reading this entire thread I'll say that I believe we've covered everything up to and including neck tension.

However, how about your cases? Are they all the same: brand, load number, condition?

Over on TRF there is a former gunsmith that did a lot of testing with brass. His name is Iowegan. What he found out is that a new case was good for about four loadings then the velocities began to vary. Each succeeding load would show further variations in velocity.
What he determined was that the brass became work hardened and was no longer holding a tight neck tension or tight crimp.

This was just a thought, something else to check.

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

Unless you are really in love with 2400 powder. I would change powder. I use 296/H110 for the loading you are trying to accomplish.
I shoot alot of Alliant powder, but have never had much success with 2400. Just my personal opinion, you understand.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Like mikld ,I Use a Lee crimp die for the .44mag, .45 Colt and for the .357 .
I crimp as a separate operation and don`t like to mess with my die settings.

That said, You need to check on other things besides the crimp. Like Joe said the neck tension is very important also.

Good luck!

[AJMD429]

All brass was the same lot of once-fired Midway brass, all trimmed to length, etc. - the walls 'look' the same thickness, and seating the bullets seems to require about the same force with each case.

I really think what I'm finding out is that the crimp either has to be really FIRM or just use neck tension alone (as per the target I posted above). I finally got really decent results with the very FIRM crimp.

The other factor seems to be seating depth, and although I thought that using the separate die for seating vs. crimping would address that, I think the seating plug is not matching my bullet shape, or the bullets are not uniform. Note how the individually-seated loads were best. I hadn't suspected the seating depth would matter that much (and seating depth really didn't matter much when there was NO crimp...), but it does.

The other 'issue' is that I guess I'd better ditch the Magnum LP primers at this point, unless I go with H-110, which I've not seen on the shelves recently. I'll keep my eyes open for some though.

[AmBraCol]

Did you measure velocities? If so, what's the difference between no crimp and firm crimp?

[AJMD429]

Did you measure velocities? If so, what's the difference between no crimp and firm crimp?

No; the drizzly weather and time constraints didn't allow that. Hopefully after I get a batch loaded I will chance upon some good weather.

I plan to load 5-10 rounds each of 18, 19, 20, 21 grains of 2400 with the Rem 2-1/2 primers and carefully seated then firmly Lee-FCD-crimped 240gr JSP bullets, and see how they do. Once I find a 'recipe' I'll load as many as I have primers for (plenty for deer season, but probably only 200 or so). I have standard Large Pistol primers on "backorder" so I can load ALL my brass someday...

I'll either find a 'recipe' I like that uses the Large Magnum Pistol primers I have (a couple thousand I think) or I'll just hang on to those primers for 'trading' purposes.

I hope the post hasn't bored the experts but I'd not really tried to mass-produce reloads for accuracy in a levergun before, and it is much different than my experiences tuning a 6mm Rem bolt gun. All fun, though, since it involves going outside and SHOOTING....

[Leverdude]

For $29.00 and 2 dummy cases, Lee will make you a rifle type crimp die. IMO, the rifle type die is a superior design. Do not let the tech. staff tell you the die can not be made. Lee has made this die for the .44 mag. and the .45 Colt for me. The FCD for the .44-40 could probably be made to work. I think leverluver has used the .44-40 die with the .44 mag. God Bless, 1886.

I'v used my 44/40 LFC die many times for 44Mag without issue. Like I think I said, I very rarely, never really, use my pistol LFC dies anymore. I had a batch of 357's that the carbide ring sized the bullet so much I could spin the bullet with my fingers. As mentioned, brass springs back more than lead or even jacketed bullets.