Big 3 Primers - MV Differences?

[JohndeFresno]

Several of us have recently made purchases for primers that are not our regular brands, due to recent limitation of stock. My choice is CCI, but Winchester primers were more available. So, scientific or not, I am curious to see how the primer brands stack up within the confines of common levergun loads; and perhaps several others would like to know.

If I recall correctly, Joe Miller, KirkD and AJMD429, possibly among others, posted a few specific listings of their observations. One of the above showed regular vs. magnum primers with the same load. But I don't recall ever seeing a comparison of three of the same type primers in different brands.

Let's list the standard caveats to save time and repetition:
All primers react differently to a given load
Always start 10% below max listings when changing a component
No formula exists to show correlations between different primers
No two firearms are alike

Now, having acknowledged the above admonitions, does anybody have data that compares the performance of a SAME LOAD using two or three of the "Big 3" primers - CCI, Federal, and Winchester?

It would be interesting to see chronographed data, not necessarily top-end loads, for a good ol' .30-30 round, such as the one below, as an example:
#311041 Lyman FP-GC 173 gr., #2 Alloy, 25.0 gr. BL-C(2)
CCI 200 LR Primer: 1,710 fps (Hunting, but not a max load)
FED 210 LR Primer:
WIN WLR LR Primer:

Do we have any stats that are readily available out there? Thanks in advance.

[TedH]

I would like to see a comparison between brands as well, but I doubt there would be any more difference between brands of standard primers than the variation in two different rifles.

I have noted recently a signifcant improvement in accuracy and a 100 fps gain in velocity from a CCI magnum primer over the standard primer in a 22-250 load with H335. As noted in most load manuals that powder (and most ball powders for that matter) will perform better with a hotter primer.

[J Miller]

How about we add to that this load:

34.5grs Win 748, 150gr Speer SP.

Not all of us use the cast bullets or extruded powder. I'm very interested in your criteria, but also interested in my favorite load.
Oh, and lets add Remington 9 1/2 LR primers too.

Joe

[AJMD429]

One of the gun mags (Rifle? or Handloader?) had an article recently where they altered each component & step selectively and measured the effect. (Well, maybe not each one, but lots of them, anyway...)

It is in my 'old magazine' piles though, and odds of me finding it are slim. Maybe this weekend - if I do, I'll post something more detailed.

I think the cartridge was .308 Win.

It was about the time the article (maybe same magazine?) appeared that tested different brands of cases by reloading them until they cracked.

I will post any new news I find with the .44 Mag loads I'm messing with.

[Modoc ED]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

[Tycer]

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

[JohndeFresno]

How about we add to that this load:
34.5grs Win 748, 150gr Speer SP.
...Oh, and lets add Remington 9 1/2 LR primers too.
Joe

Joe,

I was using that as an example, only. I meant that any medium to medium-high pressure levergun load, with comparative primer results, would be of interest.

I have never used Remingtons, but that would be a good idea.

[JohndeFresno]

One of the gun mags (Rifle? or Handloader?) had an article recently where they altered each component & step selectively and measured the effect....I think the cartridge was .308 Win....I will post any new news I find with the .44 Mag loads I'm messing with.

That would do - anything that we could look at with consistency.

And, yes, if you chrono the .44's, that would be interesting.

I plan to keep copious notes and share them when I can get back outdoors again, although it looks like that won't be until next Spring, now.

[JohndeFresno]

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

Modoc Ed and Tycer,
I recall another article - somewhere online - that also showed the dramatic differences between how the primers ignite, with some accompanying text. But I don't recall that it compared several identical loads with different primers, which is the aim of this thread.

My ultimate goal is to see how much difference a primer makes in MV within medium to medium high pressure loads, not low end or top end loads, since I will now have to start up some new loads with my newly acquired differently branded primers. It might save some development time, as long as I start safely below any maximum loads.

[JohndeFresno]

One of the gun mags (Rifle? or Handloader?) had an article recently where they altered each component & step selectively and measured the effect...

Thanks for the reminder that it was an article about shooting until the brass petered out. The article that you are referring to:
December 2008 "Handloader" Magazine, Issue 257
"Developing an Accurate 308 Load" by Gary P. Sciuchetti

The article had lots of useful information and tables, but it did not compare primers side by side for velocity. It did show that switching primers resulted in different group sizes, varying as much as .313 inch among them all.

It does make outstanding reading, though, because it shows how case brand, primer, powder, and bullet variations come into play; even the different weights of the various brass products.

[cnjarvis]

I recall an earlier article, probably Handloader from around 2002 - '03 that did a pressure test on the various primers. IIRC, Winchester was the hottest and Federal/CCI were very similar and on the lower end.

I doubt I'll be able to dig that article up as all my paper magazines are in the attic.

ETA: LoadData.com has a "Primer Burn Rate Chart" that I can't access without paying the membership. Perhaps someone else who has a subscription can tell us if it's relevant and provide us with the info.

[JohndeFresno]

...Handloader from around 2002 - '03...pressure test on the various primers. IIRC, Winchester was the hottest and Federal/CCI were very similar and on the lower end.

ETA: LoadData.com has a "Primer Burn Rate Chart" that I can't access...

CN,

My earliest HandLoader is Jan 1007. I subscribe online and archive the mags as PDF documents, now.

LoadData has a powder burn rate chart (shows relative order, quickest to slowest, only) and a primer chart that matches descriptions to application (e.g. WIN WLR = Large Rifle primer), but no "Primer Burn Rate Chart" that I could find as a paid-up member.

But I keep running into articles that warn that the CCI Large Rifle primer is mild, while Winchester's WLR can really drive up pressures in some cases, or not make a significant difference in others.

It appears that the wisest thing to do is to start from scratch from a standard load that uses the Winchester primers, in my case. Nuts.

[Modoc ED]

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_test ... erence.htm

I have a good supply of primers on hand and therefore, haven't had to do any experimenting with primers I don't usually use.

I also have a good supply of powder on hand but I'm more likely to have to experiment with various powders down the line than primers.

Very good information and links in this thread though.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_test ... erence.htm

I have a good supply of primers on hand and therefore, haven't had to do any experimenting with primers I don't usually use.

I also have a good supply of powder on hand but I'm more likely to have to experiment with various powders down the line than primers.

Very good information and links in this thread though.

Great info in that first link ... I didn't realize the SR varied so much in construction. Nice to see the LR are more consistent in construction.

The second link didn't work for me though.

[JohndeFresno]

Great info in that first link ... I didn't realize the SR varied so much in construction. Nice to see the LR are more consistent in construction.

The second link didn't work for me though.

I had trouble with the second link, as well. Very good source, Ed - thank you.
I added both files to a .zip file for viewing (the website gets credit at the top of each document).

You can download the file, "Primers And Pressure.zip" at:
http://www.box.net/shared/vfb896k0vv

[Mike D.]

I haven't read any articles concerning the differences between primer manufacturers, but it really makes no difference to me what primer is at hand. Lately, I have been using WLRs because that is all that remains of my stock. I probably won't be buying many more until the price falls to where it should be, not the silly overinflated cost at this time. I don't shoot much these days, anyway. Components are too precious to waste away banging at paper.

[JohndeFresno]

Mike, I am hoping that with less than max loads that I can feel confident just substituting WLR for my pet loads as a startup and then adjusting them for accuracy.

Here is one example of the difference between primer types that I was able to find with an online search:

Source - The High Road website / Gear and Ammunition / Handloading and Reloading
“Winchester large rifle primers vs. CCI"
Posting #3 by SlamFire1 (member name) March 9, 2009, 8:45 AM
You can currently click on:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=433990

[EXCERPTED, Reformatted fm info – JdeF]
“Maybe a half a grain difference with AA2495. Which is Accurate Arms knockoff of IMR 4895.

“Even though the CCI#34 primer is sold as a magnum primer, the WLR provides a slightly higher velocity. I use WLR data with CCI #34's with no changes.”

30-06 26” Wilson Match Barrel / [5 May 2000 T=82°F]
[168 gr Sierra Match] [OAL 3.30”]

47.0 AA2495, R-P cases CCI 34
Avg Vel = 2720

47.5 AA2495, R-P cases CCI 34
Avg Vel = 2745
[showing MV progression – JdeF]

47.0 AA2495, F-C cases WLR
Avg Vel = 2765

[So – slight differences in cases notwithstanding, in this case, WLR creates +45 fps MV over CCI 34 (Mil Spec LR) primers – JdeF]

[JohndeFresno]

Hello - here are some 30-30 recipes for the more commonly available WIN WLR primers, using the more readily available (and inexpensive) Ramshot TAC powder. WLR's are found on the Winchester powder recipes, but good luck finding some WIN 748, for example.

TAC, a double based ball powder, meters well. That is a big plus. And I've found a few reloaders who seem to swear by this lesser known powder for the 30-30.

Ramshot load for 30-30 Winchester, per their free PDF (online) manual
Barrel: 24" Twist: 1-12" Primer: WIN WLR Bullet Diameter .308"

TAC, 125 Sierra HP FN, COL 2.410”
Start 32.3 gr. (2,363 fps)
Max 35.8 gr. (2,625 fps) Max 39,760 psi

TAC, 150 Hornady RN, COL 2.520”
Start 29.7 gr. (2,125 fps)
Max 33.0 gr. (2,361 fps) Max 39,610 psi

TAC, 170 Sierra HP FN, COL 2.515”
Start 27.5 gr. (1,962 fps)
Max 30.5 gr. (2,180 fps) Max 37,010 psi

Big Game, 125 Sierra HP FN, COL 2.435”
Start 34.9 gr. (2,179 fps)
Max 38.8 gr. (2,421 fps) Max 26,780 psi

Big Game, 150 Sierra HP FN, COL 2.530”
Start 33.5 gr. (2,070 fps)
Max 37.2 gr. (2,300 fps) Max 29,420 psi

Lead Bullets
TAC, 170 Oregon Trail TruShot RNFPGC, COL 2.520”
Start 25.1 gr. (1,859 fps)
Max 27.9 gr. (2,065 fps) Max 29,460 psi

Big Game, 170 Oregon Tail TruShot RNFPGC, COL 2.520”
Start 28.6 gr. (1,799 fps)
Max 31.8 gr. (1,999 fps) Max 22,600 psi

Lord willing, I'll load up some of my 170 gr. TruShot rounds with CCI 200 and WLR, possibly with a few borrowed Federal primers, and chronograph the results. I don't know of anybody nearby who has Remington 9 1/2's. I'm still recuperating from a short vacation in the hospital, so if anybody else wants to try it first, feel free! Given the fact that the WIN powder is the "hottest" standard LR powder among CCI, Federal, Remington and Winchester, I plan to run comparisons on a load using around 26 grains in my Marlin 336 - in about a month; doctor says no lifting right now.

[JohndeFresno]

It looks like somebody at CalGuns.net ran a test that I was looking for!
Click on:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... hp?t=95308

Now that I've given due credit (and you can see the more complete data), I'll briefly summarize "Jico's" findings:
Five large rifle primers were tested:
CCI 200, CCI BR2, WLR, FED 210, FED 210M
(A subsequent poster gave results for the Wolf LR primer, which is a bit milder)

5 rounds each, .308WIN, Rem 700PSS, 26" barrel;
Lake City 96 cases, 175.0 gr (exact) Sierra Match King
Reloder 15, 43.0 gr ("+/- .05"), COAL 2.82"
dispense by PACT electronic dispenser and scale
- OAL around 2.82"
- 100yds.

CCI#200 - MV: 2689fps, ES: 52, SD: 19.3
CCI#BR2 - MV: 2669fps, ES: 26, SD: 11.1
WLR - MV: 2695fps, ES: 21, SD: 8.1
FED210 - MV: 2688fps, ES: 43, SD: 16.7
FED210M - MV: 2701fps, ES: 19, SD: 7.2

"Some observations (from this experiment):
- CCI#200 and FED210 are similar in performance in terms of MV/ES/SD
- CCI#BR2 is better than CCI#200 in terms of ES/SD
- CCI#BR2 seems to be colder than CCI#200 in terms of MV
- FED210M is better than FED210 in terms of ES/SD
- FED210M seems to be hotter than FED210 in terms of MV
- WLR seems to be good for the money, peroformance similar to the premium FED210M and CCI#BR2
- FED210M performs the best"

- - - - -

As for Small Rifle primers, "RC" at Handloads.com ran a test in September 2009 and found that the WLR runs a higher velocity, matching the CCI450 Small Rifle Magnum primer. Click on:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... 24196&PN=1

His closing comment:
"What the limited data shows is that a winchester small rifle primer is about the same strength as a CCI small rifle magnum primer. It also shows some powders are more sensitive to primer changes than others and that even two lots of the same primer will yield slightly different ballistics. TAC gave more consistent results with all primers and 2230 showed the most consistent velocities with magnum primers."

- - - - -

I have avoided WLR primers until the "primer drought" forced me to purchase them. They are looking better all the time. "Jico's" test seems to support what I had suspected might be a "wive's tale;" no matter how the flame burns when the primers are ignited, or how the primers are constructed, WLR's are generally a little hotter in real world application than competing Large Rifle primers, and pretty much on a par with a magnum primer.

[cnjarvis]

Thanks for following up on this one John. The intricacies of reloading are fascinating.

I've almost exclusively gone to Winchester primers with the exception of a few Federals for established loads. Why? I've always had good luck with them, they're generally more available here than other brands and they're frequently cheaper than anything else on the shelf. Now that someone else has done all the testing, it appears that I may be able to substitute CCI #200's for my Federal 210's in a pinch.

[Charles]

I posted a reply on this thread a day or so ago, but hit the wrong button and the whole things went into cyberspace. I figured it was divine intervention and didn't do it again. Now is is late at night and I thought I would rehash it and see if lightning strikes twice.

I read the article on primers and found it wanting. It talks of primer power and brisance as if they are interchangable terms, which they are not.

Brisance is the speed at which an explosive compound releases it's maximum energy. Sometimes it is refered to as the shattering effect.

There are three ways to contrast primers.

1. Tempreture... What is the temp of the flame?
2. Power..What is the maximum energy released?
3. Brisance - What is the speed at which the maximum energy is released?

It cannot be assumed that a primer with a hot temp is the primers that is has the most brisance or has the most stored energy. In fact, the kinds of tests that handloaders do are meaningless.

Are primers different? Certainly they are. Will primers make a difference in your loads? Maybe so and maybe not. There are many variables, such as case capacity and shape, bullet weight, powder burning rate and charge and so forth and so forth.

BTW..The BIG three should be the BIG four. Don't exclude Remington from your thinking. They make fine primers.

[JohndeFresno]

...BTW..The BIG three should be the BIG four. Don't exclude Remington from your thinking. They make fine primers.

I'm sure you're right, Charles. I just don't use them, nor do my close circle of hunter / handloaders, as far as I know; so I must have underplayed the importance and popularity of Remingtons. I don't trust anything that categorizes its models in fractions!

As for the brisance / heat / flash / length of flame and so on, all of that information has, over the years, proven pretty worthless to me. My limited science training* does not allow me to make a qualified decision as to which primer is more effective - one that has a longer burning flame, a flame of greater length, or a flame of more intensity, or any combination. All I care about is the proof when you taste the pudding. (* I might add, however, that I learned how to do an impressive job of dissecting a frog.)

Since I don't use pressure testing equipment, I was merely trying to get a clue as to which primer is more efficient by the muzzle velocity it generates, and if I'm stepping into a serious danger zone by switching in WLR's for other primers for my loads. I double check known loads and then consult QuickLoad software, when the components are listed, as an added safety factor. But even QuickLoad cannot differentiate between primers.

What gets my goat is that the most scholarly treatises on primers and their differences - at least the ones that I have read - always end up by saying something like "there may be great pressure variations, or there may be minimal differences, depending upon the caliber, bullet, [you fill in the rest]."

So that leaves me with nuttin'! Why did I bother reading all of that blasted stuff?

Anyway, from what I've seen so far, the variances within the non-magnum .30 caliber rifles, at moderate loads, seem to point to three things:
1) WLR's are "hotter" in at least my terms, because the MV's are a bit higher
2) The variances are not so drastic that I would blow up my rifle if I use WLR for CCI, in a moderate load;
3) So I can use the WLR powder at a starting point of what I was using with moderate CCI Large Rifle primers, relatively safely, and then work up the more ambitious loads from there.

Item #3 was the actual intent of this exercise. Like Mike D said, "Lately, I have been using WLRs because that is all that remains of my stock." Except in my case, it was the only primer currently available, so I bought what I could before I ran out of supplies.

And now I'm a happy camper with the WLR's. But thanks for the additional information, Charles!

[Edited for typos and readability - JdeF]

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks for following up on this one John. The intricacies of reloading are fascinating.

I've almost exclusively gone to Winchester primers with the exception of a few Federals for established loads. Why? I've always had good luck with them, they're generally more available here than other brands and they're frequently cheaper than anything else on the shelf. Now that someone else has done all the testing, it appears that I may be able to substitute CCI #200's for my Federal 210's in a pinch.

That's what I'm getting out of it. Glad to be able to share the findings through this excellent site.

[Bogie35]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

In the immortal words of Paris Hilton, "Wow, that's hot."

Great link! Thanks for posting Ed.

bogie

[Charles]

John... The point of my post, is that most information available to handloaders is indeed useless and the testing done by handloaders tops the list of worthless information as you don't know what you are testing.

I shoot cast bullets in rifles to the exclusion of those dreaful little yellow thingies and my primerology is very simple.

1. Avoid Winchester LR Magnum primers like the plague.
2. When I can get them I use Remington 9.5.
3. I have 10 K Remington 9.5M and they are OK to use. I won't buy any more when they are gone.
4. If I am out of Remington 9.5 and 9.5 M use any other LR non magnum primer.

That is all there is too it. I have my reasons for the above, but they probably don't mean much to anybody but me.

When Winchester used number for their primers, they used fractions also. I still have one K Winchester 6 1/2 - 116 small rifle primers. They are the last of my Viet Nam war stash, bought in 1966. I tested some last year against some new CCI and they delivered a little better accuracy.

[JohndeFresno]

...
1. Avoid Winchester LR Magnum primers like the plague.
...That is all there is to it. I have my reasons for the above, but they probably don't mean much to anybody but me.

Charles,

Of course, I was kidding about the fraction thing; Rem's just aren't used by my circle of shootin' friends; but I'm sure that they are fine, like all Remington products. I wouldn't agree with your statement about handloaders, however - there are some loonies out there, but we can't discount the likes of Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Paco, and many other experimenters who showed the factories that they were missing the boat. And even my modest early experiments as a young deputy showed me that some exotic self defense rounds (like the now-defunct Velet exploding round) were not what they were cracked up to be for real-world use.

But, as for insisting on just the one primer (Rem 9 1/2) for LR applications:
I have always gone with the accepted primer for the powder, since that is what the factory worked with when they developed their various loads, but am just recently trying to find an acceptable primer for use with non-associated powders for logistics' sake (for the sake of being to get ANY one primer in bulk to save Hazmat and shipping costs over a larger order).

So -since we are among friends, and it's just you and me and a couple of hundred others listening in, ...what are your "reasons for the above" as to the inadvisability of anything other than the Rem 9 1/2?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I've been using Remington 9-1/2's with 3031 and have been able to get some really low extreme spreads when I take my time with the powder scale and use the FCD to crimp.

I'll probably try some loads with double based powders when it gets cooler this Fall. I'll probably try the hotter Winchester #8-1/2's when I build those loads. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try all of the LR primers at that time to see what I get.

I am curious about Charles' affinity for the Remingtons as well.