ON TOPIC!!!! Performance stories of Levergun Cartridges

[rjohns94]

As I was skimming the mornings readings here on the world's best sight, it was apparent we are in the summer duldrums of what to talk about with regards to leverguns. They are our favorite topic yet this morning, the front page of the website had 18 OTs alone. This certainly speaks to the family and friends we have all become, sharing our lives and other passion and cracking a joke. I personally love what this site represents.

I'm looking to start some on topic discussions of levergun cartridge performance by caliber. There are alot of viewers out there who come to us for information and we often have, in various threads, put our opinions in of what is good, bad or ugly about a particular cartridge, but often they are all mixed in with other stuff. I was thinking that perhaps we could consolidate the information by Cartridge. The information would all be on topic. We could have pictures (mandatory), range reports, pet loads, hunting performance, target performance, competition results, favorite stories or memories attached to the Cartridge. We could talk about the pros and cons of the various leverguns we use in that cartridge and why we like the shotgun butt or the crescent butt, the 26" inch barrel, over the 20" or 16", big loop, small loop, action work, take down or not, etc etc. The point is, a consolidated user/expert, on topic, thread per cartridge. What do you think? Good idea? lousy idea? The germinating seed for this is purely selfish. I recently picked up a rifle in the tried and true caliber of 30-30. I have had others before, but they were lacking in some feature or another, and I simply was not satisfied. But this new one is so very kewl. The first thing I wanted to do is to come on line and find out all about the 30-30 again. I read Paco's articles and book data, I looked in loading manuals, i flipped through old mag articles, old hunting books, and did a search on here for 30-30 . But it all wasn't consolidated and I have to admit, was a bit tedious. So, if you like the idea, then lets start with the vernerable 30-30 and see how this goes. We could start threads for the 32-20, 45-70, 22lr, 44-40, etc etc. This ought to give us lots of on topic time and could be really useful data for all of us. At least, thats the way I see it from where I sit.

[Pete44ru]

I, for one, think you have a good isea, Mike - I only wish the members here wouls remember to label their non-levergun threads as "OT", per forum rules & eyiquette. so members could sort the wheat from the chaff if they so desire.

.

[Grizz]

I'll play. I have a couple of them. Both Marlins. One's nice, the other is trade goods or a project. It's one caliber that I've not taken game with, although I shot quite a few deer with .308, which is a hopped up 30-30.

I prefer the straight grip for handling. It doesn't get shot much because of the stable mates it hangs with. In fact, I can't imagine I'd select it for hunting over the others it lives with.

0617100642-00.jpg

The 30-30 is the middle one in this family portrait.

Grizz

[COSteve]

Sounds like a good plan. I'll support it where I can be of help.

[86er]

I've got detailed data from most of our clients hunts that include cartridge, bullet, load, range, animal and size and reported effect, recovered bullet or not, etc. I'd be happy to summarize wherever appropriate. Plus there are only a handful of members here that have shot dangerous game including African and N. American with levergun cartridges so that info may be useful.

[2ndovc]

I've got detailed data from most of our clients hunts that include cartridge, bullet, load, range, animal and size and reported effect, recovered bullet or not, etc. I'd be happy to summarize wherever appropriate. Plus there are only a handful of members here that have shot dangerous game including African and N. American with levergun cartridges so that info may be useful.

Hey Joe,

Do you have any game data for the .33 WCF or .35 WCF?

jb

[Nath]

30/30, what a peach, shot pretty much everything over here with it. I do prefere a Winchester over the Marlin for what it's worth.

Makes me laugh when folks dismiss it as slow and how much further out their bolt gun will take game blah blah blah. I find the best way to shut them up is to ask what the average distance is that they have taken game with their rifle, great fun watching the cogs go around and around.

30/30, what a peach, wish they still did'm in a bolt.

Nath.

[Borregos]

What a great idea

[bdhold]

most of us are here to learn, so you guys who know....educate us.
great idea.

[rjohns94]

My experience has revolved around owning several but I have only shot 2 game animals with the cartridge. I have owned a winchester in 16, 20, 26 inch length, trapper, SRC, Carbine and now rifle. I have owned a marlin with a longer tubeof 26 also. The trapper was great and pointed nice. The src was kewl but I just couldn't see well the sights through that ladder rear. the carbine was handy and was known as Ugly Duck because it was done in a green military teflon color. It was the only 30-30 I used on game, taking a stubborn Texas ram and a quick shot on a blackbuck that dropped it in its tracks. The marlin was really close to what I like in a hunting rifle. Had the sights out there where I could see them, longer tube helps that for me. I also just like the looks of the longer barrel on a strictly hunting rifle. That brings me to the current rifle: a winchester 1894, made in 1903, void of safeties except my brain, 26 inch barrel, 8 + 1 shots, pristene barrel inside, nice bluing, honest wear on receiver, solid stock, unrefinished. When I hold it, I feel the history of a century of hunting. I note the smokeless steel barrel, its blue octagon shape lending character to the overall beauty and simplicity of the rifle. I purchased a period peep, aged as the rifle for it and when it arrives, I will post pictures. The tang sight will complete it for me, allowing me to still see the sight picture properly with these aging eyes. I hope to use it for whitetail deer, hogs, and other such game, even on ground hogs. It may even replace my '92 in .357 as my primary woods walking rifle. I love its balance and it shoots 150grain Federal ammo very well. I'm glad to have a 30-30 back in the fold and hope it will be there for a long time.

[J Miller]

I will sadly admit that even though I've owned a bunch of 30-30s I've never taken any game with any of them.
I hope to correct that some day.

In the mean time I'm going sit here and enjoy your reports. All I can report on is some range time and one bit honkin rock my friend and I shot off the wall of a wash in AZ.

86ER,
If you have the time could you post any data you might have developed about the 30-30? I would appreciate it.

Joe

[CarlsenHighway]

With a 1952 Winchester 94 in .30/30 I have shot red deer, hares, possums, feral goats, trout...I have missed a couple of fallow deer, never could close the deal with the .30/30 on one of them, too sneaky in thick bush those little deer.

The red deer stags can be big animals and died just as well as anything else and that was with 150 grain power points, of which I have a whole bunch. I am getting another Winchester 94 XTR with checkering shortly simply because, well, I want to.

I load the 150g with 34.5 grains of Varget, havnt chronied the load, but it never really gave me cause to wonder at its velocity since it was killing everything just fine.

It was as accurate as I could wish for...average group size is 1.5 - 2 inches depending on me. I put a lyman 66 receiver sight on it and threw the insert away (lol, not really, just never used it.)

The straight stock winchester 94 fits better than any bolt action rifle, is a pleasure to carry, comes up on target thoughtlessly, and is not only the fastest repeat shot, but more importantly its faster than any bolt action to get into action for snap shooting, when you carry it on half cock. You can also cock them absolutely silently for when you come across the deer before he has seen you....

Probably the best most efficient pure hunting rifle I have come across, and I have had a lot of different rifles. The one rifle I would put up against it for handling and performance would be a pre'81 BLR also with a straight stock, but the magazine gets in the way of carrying it as comfortably as the '94.
I dont mind the Marlins in principle, but they dont seem to handle as lively and elegant as a Winchester. Plus my old man might disown me.

Most of my hunting is stalking through bush, and nearly everything I do is offhand shooting at game, and you can't beat it. I have never put a scope on a WInchester before and never will.
THe rifle I am getting next I will leave with the factory rear sight on it, because in actual fact, I dont mind them either.

Have shot red deer with it from 12 yards out to 90 yards all offhand, and never wondered how it would perform. I am fully confident I am good for all I might need to do when I take the .30/30.

Now, if you interpret this as a ringing endorsement.....yup.

[Old Savage]

One shot stop here! And, the coveted Ysabel Kid Award.

[pokey]

One shot stop here! And, the coveted Ysabel Kid Award.

drt

[madman4570]

Great idea Mike!
We all can learn somthing!

[pokey]

good choice to start with. i've shot a couple elk, a few deer, coyotes, and a few
other odds and ends. no great numbers, but never once thought i did not have
enough gun. the old 30wcf has been my favorite for a long time, and i shoot it
quite a bit, so i know where that bullet is going to go. if there is any chance of
something going wrong i just pass, there will be another day. it's not survival yet,
i'll still eat today. get where you need to be to place your shot, and she won't
let you down.

another glowing testimonial.

or did you want range info[ accuracy, velocity, and such]?

[cshold]

One shot stop here! And, the coveted Ysabel Kid Award.

Well thanks to Old Savag it proves the forum Isn’t completely DOA since Lady J left the building

[rjohns94]

Yep, range info, loadings, bullets, casting, the whole shebang!!!. Here is but one of the articles on our website that Paco wrote on 30-30 varmit loads: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

and from Jim T: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... 4_3030.htm

and: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... grange.htm

and from 30WCF: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

and from Peter Held: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/peter_held.htm

and some casting how to: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxe ... points.htm

[rjohns94]

Old savage, that looks like a .22lr kill in a 30-30 topic!!

[Old Savage]

Ah rj, just read the subject and posted without reading the initial entry.

[86er]

Here's the 30-30 data gathered from our clients. Most animals were WTD and black bear with a good sprinkling of hogs and exotics. Overall 82 animals were killed with 100 shots. 9 were wounded and recovered after being shot a second time. 4 were a total loss, never recovered. 4 more were recovered a day or two later and were damaged by scavengers so they couldn't be eaten or mounted. 11 showed no visible sign of a hit whatsoever. Around 60% ran an average of 70 yards. Shoulder shots or head shots went 20 yds or less while shots noted as lungs, behind the shoulder, rib cage or elsewhere further back than the shoulder shows animals went an average of 60 yards. Most ammo was 150 gr and 170 gr as could be expected but there was 110 gr, 125 gr, 130 gr, 180 gr and 190 grain bullets noted (one incident with each but three with 110 gr - two by me). Overall, the animals hit with 150 gr went half as far as the one's hit with 170 grain. With 150 grain, fully one half went down very close to the place they were shot. With the 170 grain only 25% went down immediately or very close to the place they were shot. The 150's accounted for more animals with little visible sign at the place of the shot but it seems after a dozen yards or so there was sign. The 170's had the most instances of poor sign. The most common ammo was noted as Winchester with Remington a close second. There were Federal and Nosler Partition represented. Cast bullets, Barnes X, Grizzly Cartridge, Speer Hot Core and Hornady were represented including the LeverEvolution. The LeverEvolution was used on 5 animals, all WTD and ranged at 100 yards each. It was the most inconsistent performance of all ammo noted. One deer was hit through the lungs, ran and was hit again in the rear. Another was hit just behind the shoulder and ran. A third was hit in the middle of the ribs quartering away, angling the bullet toward the off shoulder. These animals went 170 yards, 190 yards and 457 yards respectively. They were all found the next day with the use of deer recovery dogs and none were salvagable thanks to coyotes, buzzards and the outside temperature. Two days later the same rifle that accounted for two of the aforementioned deer was used to shoot two deer at 100 yards each. These shots were intentionally forward into the shoulder. Both deer dropped in their tracks. Go figure. RJohns94 shot a large goat close to 250 pounds from 25 yards or so. The 150 gr Federal deflected around the scapular and travelled under the skin exiting a non-lethal wound. Another shot a few hours later ended that. Lindsay shot a blackbuck with a 110 grain SP loaded to 2000 fps. The shot was too far back and it resulted in a wound. Shortly after, a regular 150 grain was fired and killed the blackbuck instantly. I shot a ram with those 110 gr loads as it ran out from some brush about 50 yards out. I kept shooting until it went down, 5 shots in all. The bullets made it to the middle of the chest cavity and were expanded and crumbled. I shot an axis deer at 75 yards with the 110's and it just stood there. I shot it again and it started walking in little circles. A third shot put it down. All the shots were behind the leg on top of one another. I wont load or use the 110's any more. Lindsay shot a ram with Grizzly 170 grain hardcast at 1900 fps on a 50 yd shot. She hit it between the eyes and it died instantly. However, the bullet never exited the head! A client shot a red stag at around 180 yards shooting downhill toward a water hole. The noise just about ended and I was about to say "you missed" when the animal dropped it's head and rolled forward. That was a 170 grain Rem Core Lokt. When I isolate black bear I see that they travelled and average of 85 yards. Keep in mind these are all under 40 yard shots from an elevated stand and the bears are from 150-300 pounds. There was no measurable difference between 150 and 170 grain as far as bear recovered or how far they went. It does seem from the notes that the 170's tended to exit while the 150 more often than not didn't. Here's another tid bit of info. My friend Albert had to cull 40 axis does. He used a 30-30 Marlin with a scope. This was controlled shooting from the truck and all shots were under 100 yards. He did not keep notes but he told me in general his observations. He used several kinds of ammo, whatever he could get since he needed a bunch to sight in and cull. He said the Rem Core Lokt and Win Silver box ammo was the same as far as performance and he couldn't tell any difference in accuracy or lethality. He only used a few 170 grainers but said they didn't seem any different than the 150's. What he did report that is interesting is that when he started using a box of Winchester Supreme with the black coated bullet and white plastic tip the results were noticably better than the other ammo. He said that Supreme would put 'em down in their tracks and 10 and of 13 axis deer he shot with it dropped where they stood regardless of lung or shoulder shots. When I compare the 30-30 to other cartridges that have accounted for at least 50 animals it is average for the # of shots needed, below average for wounded and recovered with another shot, above average on the distance animals ran after being hit and is the leader in # of animals lost entirely (although coincidentally all those were with Hornady LeverEvolution ammo). It was used within reasonable parameters as the furtherst shot noted is 220 yards. It was one of the least varieties of ammo (bullets) in a cartridge. It was the highest # of open sighted rifles. There was one incident of a 30-30 used in a bolt gun and one used in a handgun.

[Old Savage]

Yes, but I travel to where Lady J is .... electronically of course

[rjohns94]

OS< no problem my friend.

[cshold]

O S you are indeed one of the lever brothers
that has brought some life to this forum over the years

[J Miller]

86er,

Thanks for that 30-30 performance break down. I'm going to have to read it several times to really understand it.

One more question; what was the most used barrel length? I suspect I know, but I just have to ask.

Joe

[86er]

There is little mention of barrel length in my notes. Based on the guns/models and memory I'd say 20" was most common.

[shooter]

30/30, what a peach, wish they still did'm in a bolt.

Nath.

I have an old Savage bolt 30-30. It is in near new condition, and it is all my granddad ever hunted deer with. He only shot 1 or 2 rounds a year, and they were only at deer or pigs.

I love the 30-30. My Win. 94 is my "go to" gun. If I had to pick one gun to grab while walking out the door for general purpose shooting/hunting, that would be it. I don't think I would ever feel undergunned with it, short of maybe being attacked by a grizz, then I'd want my 45/70.

[KWK]

86er, thanks for taking the time to put that report together.

[tman]

What a great idea

+2!

[Old Time Hunter]

Well, since we are discussing the venerable .30-30, I'll continue on that theme. Oh yea, thanks a bunch 86er for the details. Based on personal use and close proximity to the use of a .30-30 I can relate the following real life experiences. Personally I have only harvested WTD and one Bull Moose with a .30-30, 'course I'd wager that some fifteen to twenty WTD have been felled by me with a .30-30 in either a Glenfield 30A or a Winchester '94 motiff. Primarily in heavy wooded areas such as this:


this:

and some times out of something like this:


The longest shot I ever took was probably not over a couple of hundred yards, and that was done down the path in the first picture. The fork buck never made it across the path, maybe took a step and a half then keeled over. It was crossing right to left and could not see me laying down behind a log from where the picture was taken. Since the estimated distance was close to two hundred yards and there was a fairly brisk wind hitting me in the face, primarily on the left side, I put my POA with about a 12" hold over above his back, just behind his head. The 170 grain Core-lokt impacted just below the left shoulder, taking part of the lung, all of the heart, before exiting the right side. The majority of the WTD though probably were well under a hundred yards and only a few traveled any distance to talk about. Now, in my hunting party, we had an invited guest that took a WTD doe at over 500 yards, shooting ridge to ridge over a swamp. He was using a Winchester '94 with a 3X9 optical enhancer on it(blasphemy!) and used a POA of 6'+ over the doe. Again he used 170 grain Remington Core-lokt. Granted it was a lucky shot, has the doe was head shot. The gent also was banned for life from my property as he was warned not to shoot ridge to ridge as I had another hunter posted on the other side of the farther ridge. On another note, I have a cousin that bought a Montgomery Ward .30-30 back in '69 or '70 when he got back from 'Nam and wondered off to be a hermit, guide, and trapper in the Rockies. Over the last 40 years or so he has taken almost every kind of critter in North America from Southern New Mexico, through the lower 48, up through Canada, all the way up to the Northern Slopes of Alaska. Didn't matter if it was a Grizz, Elk, Moose, or whatever...he has never needed anything more than that broken wristed ( a mortally wounded Elk fell on it snapping the wrist, my cousin fixed it with screws, glue, and duct tape...it's been that way for over twenty years), Monkey Ward levergun with an epoxied home made peep sight on the top of the receiver.

Speaking of Moose, I have harvested one Moose in Quebec with a 30-30. The Moose crashed out of a fir tangle about 85 yards from me and started walking straight towrds me. I shot him dead nuts straight in the chest. He just kept on walking, until thirty yards from me, he fell down on his front knees and fell over. I would've shot him again, but my Glenfield jammed the next round...first ever failure on that one.

[Griff]

The .30-30... my favorite cartridge. Along with my SAA .45, the two most carried outdoor cartridges I have. The two freshest hunts in my memory took place over the seasons of 2005 & 2006. I took a total of 4 TX whitetails with a couple of my .30-30s. The longest shot was lasered at 238 yards and the shortest was guessed at about 40. All were thru & thru shots, no slugs recovered. The 238 yd deer was shot just behind the shoulder and it cut one artery leading from the heart. The deer jumped and ran about 20 yards and collapsed.

The 40 yard doe, well suffice it to say she just keeled over and didn't even take a step. The other two were also does, and were between 80 & 100 yards. They took a step or two and collapsed. The three does were all shot thru both lungs, but no shot hit their shoulders. The 40 yard shot did hit an off-side rib and that did a bunch of damage.

All my deer hunting with the .30-30 has been done with Federal "Powr-Shok" ammo. Mainly because, in developing loads for my target shooting days, I was given a BUNCH of once fired brass... included were about 20 boxes of Federals. I found that they were the most consistent cases among that brass, including Winchester (several headstamps) and Remington. So, as I bought new ammo to shoot, it became Federal.

I have also hunted coyotes in CA a LOT. I was given access to ranch land in southern California and spent many a day with a call and my .30-30s. I have killed probably 50-75 coyotes with .30-30s over the 15 years I hunted those canyons. My load preferred load for the coy-dog is Sierra's 125 HP over 31 grains of Reloder 7 and WLR primers in Federal cases. This is about a 2475fps load! Within 150 yards this load is deadly on 'em. They are often quartering shots, and sometimes dead on frontal. I've yet to have one fail. The last coyote I shot was in my side yard here in TX where he was stealing my plums! It was about a 15 yard shot... it was one of few profile shots I've had at a coyote and I was worried about it just passing thru given the range, so I aimed at the front shoulder. Well, it did it's job and took both... stopping just inside the skin. The jacket was still attached and the bullet weighed, as I recall in the neighborhood of 85 grains. The last two animals I shot with this load were two feral pitbulls chasing my then yearly colt. Both were taken at around 70 yards.

The venerable .30-30 is just that, for very good reason. It flat works.