Chaparral 76 range report and new outfit

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 2:11 pm

Thanks Pete, the groups all shot to the right, i flipped the target over in the middle of the shoot.
I bumped the front sight to the left a hair so should be close now.
I`d think that load should be plenty for deer don`t ya think.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 2:25 pm

Whoops, all shooting was at 50 yards off a sand bag.
I like the powder it burns real clean with no unburned powder anywhere.
A few of the cases had soot on them about a half inch down but most were clean.
Is that from loading with 45-70 dies and they are full length sized too much or because it`s a mild load.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 17, 2012 2:55 pm

30 gr. goes with the 40% rule. I still use CCI250s with mine, just simplifies things as I experiment. I had to raise my front sight by way of modifications (which I suppose I should publish) to get my SRC to shoot to the sights.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu May 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Pitchy wrote:A few of the cases had soot on them about a half inch down but most were clean.
Is that from loading with 45-70 dies and they are full length sized too much or because it`s a mild load.

That would be because it was a mild load and the pressure was not quite high enough to seal the case mouth against the chamber walls.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 8:46 pm

KirkD wrote:
Pitchy wrote:A few of the cases had soot on them about a half inch down but most were clean.
Is that from loading with 45-70 dies and they are full length sized too much or because it`s a mild load.
That would be because it was a mild load and the pressure was not quite high enough to seal the case mouth against the chamber walls.

Kinda what i figured, no harm no foul.
Thanks buddy.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:42 pm

IMO the reason the hot loads didn`t group is that the bullets i`m using are 457 and the bore is just the same size.
I think the lead bullets were skidding down the bore, it did show some signs of leading.
It is a mute problem because the lighter load works fine.
Thoughts?

Post by **Hobie** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:03 pm

The lighter loads are more in line with the cartridge and gun as designed.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:51 pm

Hobie wrote:The lighter loads are more in line with the cartridge and gun as designed.

Oh i agree, i have a 86, Sharps , Marlin Cowboy and a guide gun in 45-70 for heavy loads.
I was just experimenting along with Mike , i see he was using a jacked bullet which would make a difference also.
I`m happy with the 30 grain load and it will kill a deer next season.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:04 am

Lenn, those higher end loads where way too much for a soft cast plain base bullet, evidenced by shots going all over the place. Your bore would be well-leaded by the time you stepped down to the milder loads. Did you clean the lead out of the bore before stepping down to 30 grains? I would think it will need a severe cleaning. Use turpentine and extra fine steel wool.

Maybe you did get all the lead out before trying those milder loads but, even then, I think 1,400 fps and 30 grains is still too much. The original velocity for the '76 45-60 was 1,300 fps. That is what I use and I get sub 2" groups (five shot) at 100 yards, albeit with a gas check. It might be worth making sure that bore is scrubbed clean with extra fine steel wool, and then load up five rounds with 27 grains of IMR 4198. See what happens.

I don't see a problem with .457 bullets if they are soft cast. I have used .427 bullets all the time in my 45-60 and 45-70's and get very good accuracy with soft cast bullets.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:29 am

Yep i cleaned the bore before the 30 grain load, last group i shot.
My bullets are cast from wheel weights so may be a little hard also.
The Lyman 49th issue shows a load of 29 grains at 3100 fps, i tried that but got a better group at 30 grains.
I`m done messing with it now and am happy with the load it will be plenty good for deer here.
Thanks for everyones help.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri May 18, 2012 2:28 pm

That 30 grain load does seem to be a good one. I'm betting that with practice, it will tighten up even more once you get used to those new sights. You have a '76 made from modern steels, so it should be able to handle 1,400 fps without a problem. Mine is original, so I stay down around 1,300 fps.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Thu May 24, 2012 3:20 pm

Mike D. wrote:Pitchy, I tried 3031 in my Chaparall 45-75 carbine and did not like the results. 45 grains under a 300 grain Laser Cast LFN gave only 1366 FPS with absolutely abysmal results. The cases were badly sooted and the bullets were all over the place. Next I went with IMR 4198. MUCH better. 40 grains, same bullet, gave 1773 FPS average and was VERY accurate. Clean cases and very easy ejection. I'm gonna do the same load only with 250 Barnes TSX. That ought'ta make a A No 1 pig banger.

So there are no errors Mike is talking about a 45-75 not a 45-60 as he states here.
Do not try those loads in a 45-60.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat May 26, 2012 9:23 am

Here`s a load i just tried out using a 405 grain FN bullet over 26 grains of 4198.
Mild shooting and fills the case right up too the bullet, if a good set of eyes would of shot that would of been a tight group.
As i have this mold i may stick with it, should be a dandy deer load.

This was at 50 yards, should be right close at 100.
Copy any loads in this thread at your own risk.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:30 pm

In my own case, vertical spread like that is due to a blurry top of the rear sight, making it difficult to see exactly where to put the top of my front sight. If that is the case, you have yourself a super accurate load. Did you shoot that on a cloudy day or in bright sunlight? I find I shoot much more accurately in bright sunlight due to my pupil stopping way down to a pinhole, which sharpens everything up real nice.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun May 27, 2012 10:00 pm

It seems to me that the repro sights are much less sharp than the originals and this affects how well I can use the sights. It does look like a good load!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 6:33 am

It was sunny but i was in kind of a hurry to test fire the load , that and the fuzzy sight picture.
I made up another 50 cases yesterday so i`m going to load up some at that load and see how they fly.
Will update tomorrow.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Mon May 28, 2012 8:34 am

Pitchy wrote:It was sunny but i was in kind of a hurry to test fire the load , that and the fuzzy sight picture.
I made up another 50 cases yesterday so i`m going to load up some at that load and see how they fly.
Will update tomorrow.

Looking forward to the update

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 1:12 pm

Got out to shoot today, good as these eyes are going to shoot.
2 1/2 in at 50 yards, good enough for deer.

26 grains of 4198 -405 grain bullet

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 1:34 pm

Dropped the charge to 25 grains, bingo, and a little more mild shooting.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 2:09 pm

Side note, i neck sized thos last cases with a Lyman 310 tool and chamber fired them. When i reloaded them with the 45-70 dies the scraped bad on the lower part of the case.
Soooooo i recon i`ll have to buy some 45-60 dies or full length resize with the 45-70 dies.
Correct?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon May 28, 2012 3:00 pm

Pitchy, that 25 grain load is the cat's meow. I'm betting that if the blurry sights could be factored out, you would get 2" groups at 100 yards, maybe even better. I'd say you have your load!

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Mon May 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks Kirk, yep i`m pretty happy with that.
I have 50 loaded with 300 grainers and 50 with the 405`s, ready and steady.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:14 am

Pitchy wrote:Side note, i neck sized thos last cases with a Lyman 310 tool and chamber fired them. When i reloaded them with the 45-70 dies the scraped bad on the lower part of the case.
Soooooo i recon i`ll have to buy some 45-60 dies or full length resize with the 45-70 dies.
Correct?

Anyone have some ideas about this, do the 45-60 dies size the case more bottle neck than the 45-70 dies?
Does it hurt anything to resize with the 45-70 dies and have the case expand to the 45-60 specs then resize back to 45-70 specs.
If it doesn`t matter i`ll full length size them using the 45-70 dies and save some money.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:35 am

I`ll take a stab at this myself, i put the calipers to a fired 45-70 case and a fired 45-60 case and they came out the same. So it`s apparent that the 45-70 dies will work just fine if i full length size them.
That should of been a simple question for those in the know here

Post by **Hobie** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:11 am

Let's see Pitchy, you allowed 21 minutes for a response...

cd4570government.jpg

That's for the .45-70 but I can't find a dimensional drawing for the .45-60. However, if you're already loading using the .45-70 dies I guess you'll do just fine.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:24 am

Let's see Pitchy, you allowed 21 minutes for a response...

Actually i asked earlier, see in my quote.
It really isn`t a matter of the time, but why some of those that know this stuff don`t reply.
I shouldn`t of said anything but i get the feeling it`s because of the OT thing, that some don`t reply to some people because they post OT stuff.
Prob just my imagination.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:30 am

Pitchy, I have not used 45-70 dies for sizing 45-60 brass, so I have no experience there to share, but I wondered if the bottom end of the die is larger than the top end and if the 45-60 does not go in as far as the 45-70 it might not get sized enough. I don't know. Maybe it goes in far enough to grip the bullet.

One thing I do know is that before I got 45-60 dies from Lyman, I didn't do any case sizing at all. I just inserted the bullet and then crimped it in. The bullets would be awful loose before crimping, but if I just squeezed a bit on the neck to make it very slightly oval, it held the bullet good enough until I got it crimped in.

Larryo-1 · Post by **Larryo-1** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:50 am

For what it is worth---A relative of mine has an original 45-60 Model 76 and did not have any dies for it. I had an old set of Herters 45-70 dies that I put in the lathe and turned down the length of the dies till they made his 45-60 cases out of 45-70 cases. They work just fine and he has not lost a single case since then. End of story.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 10:58 am

Thanks, yep ya gotta take a little off the bottom of the crimp seat 45-70 die in order to get it to crimp the 45-60.
What i`m getting at is the isse about neck sizing only, i thought there was a problem with the size of the 45-60 case after it had been fired going into the seating 45-70 die. But the 45-70 case if only neck sized would rub at the bottom too so it`s a mute issue.
I`ll prob. just stick with the 45-70 dies and full length size the cases.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:15 am

Can't answer your most recent question but am enjoying reading your and other experiances

Keep up the good work bro

Nath.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue May 29, 2012 12:37 pm

Pitch,
45-70 dies will work fine. Get away from the .457 cast bullets. If thats the diameter of your bore and with the perfect smooth condition of the bore, you are not creating enough build up pressure. Go to a .459 diameter bullet and shove 11 grains of Unique in the case. Get rid of the junky sight and install a good tang sight with a flat black bead or flattop sight for us old heads.

After you shoot an expected 1-2" group at 50 yards or a 3" max at 100, go to 5744 as 4198 will give you large extreme spreads (with light loads) , especially in cold weather when you decide to hunt. 4198 works great if you have the proper conditions for a pressure build up, but with light loads in cold weather, its worthless. You might get 15 in a row that are fine and then when you pull the trigger on the 14 point, you might get a hangfire---with the light loads, mind you.

Unique will give you all you will ever need or want. (12-1300) and will get perfect ignition without any stupid case fillers. A 300 grain bullet will travel (at 1300) through anything in North America at 100+ yards which is about all you and I can see. 5744 is the next best, if not the best powder for the big cases as it has a high nitro content. I only use about 10-12 pounds a year so I hope I got it right--------------------------------------------Sixgun

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 1:43 pm

All so much to decide about, i thought the 4198 was the ticket and i like the 405 bullet.
Heck it`s gotta be just as reliable as my muzzle loader that goes off most the time.

Thanks for the info and sorry for getting impatient Hobie.

Also this gun came with a brass blade front sight that glares and is hard to see sometimes so i blackened it and seems better.
Will try a few 100 yard shots.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue May 29, 2012 6:22 pm

Sixgun wrote:Yoooouuuurrrrrrrr so vain, you probably think this post is about you! You handsome bugger. Neat coat dude, you would be roasting in it here in S.E.Pa. (btw, I still have my original fringe coat from 1970 during my "hippie daze" )

The '76 is doing great. Don't forget aout the all time load using Unique at sub-sonic speeds. In the 45-60, 11 grains will push it about 1100 with a 400 cast---loose in the case.---------------Sixgun

Sixgun i see in this reply you mentioned using a 400 grain bullet, maybe i`ll try a few of my 405`s and see how they shoot.
Unique would be a good powder and get a little better milage per can.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed May 30, 2012 8:39 am

Pitch,
Unique is an excellent cast bullet powder for low velocities. Its usually not recommended because of the danger of double charging a case. Just throw it in loose in the case with no stupid time consumming fillers. About 11 or 12 grains for the 45-60 with either a 300 or 400 grain bullet. A pistol primer will be fine.

Lets see a pic of those teeth!

I know your eating ice cream and scrambled eggs--it will be that way for awhile

---------------Sixgun

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:02 am

Like i said these bullets weigh in at 405 grain, i just loaded five at 11 grains and will shortly go shoot them and see what they do.
Thanks.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:29 am

Pitchy, IMR 4198 is one of my favourite powders, but I think Sixgun may be right about spreads. That being said, I am planning to experiment with dacron filler in my 45-60 using IMR 4198 and 5744 later this summer. Dacron filler will greatly reduce extreme spreads with IMR 4198. I also know that IMR 4198 plus filler is a favorite with Sherman Bell. With the kind of shooting you are doing, you might really enjoy a Chrony. It will tell you a lot about what is happening. As for now, looks like you are right on the money with load.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:33 am

Thanks Kirk, i`ll go shoot these five with Unique in a minute and see how they feel, i am pretty happy with the 25 grain load with the 405 and the 30 grain load with the 300 grain bullet.
Results within the hour.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:14 am

Sorry Sixgun but no go with the Unique, maybe because of the bullet diameter.

The 25 grainload of 4198 and 405 bullet shot a decent three shot group high at 100 yards, the middle hole just skimmed over the cardboard as it was folded over on the top.
Lowered the sight one notch and shot two more at 100 yards, not bad.
One at 50 yards.

I think i`ll stick with the 4198 for now, thanks for the help guys.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:42 am

Wow! I'm impressed with those two 100 yard groups. That 3-shot group looks like it might be 2 & 1/2" and the 2-shot group looks like 1 & 1/2". Not too shabby at all! In fact, I would call that excellent.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:45 am

Whoops sorry, the top three in group measures two in. and the other measures 1 1/4.

smokenrust · Post by **smokenrust** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:08 am

Pitchy, yar lookin good at a handret yards...Goin to do a test report at 150, 175 an two hundret yard? See whare her trajectory ark are...?

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:27 am

smokenrust wrote:Pitchy, yar lookin good at a handret yards...Goin to do a test report at 150, 175 an two hundret yard? See whare her trajectory ark are...?

Sorry but probably not, i very seldom shoot over 100 yards at anything, deer are generaly in the 50-75 range.
My guess would be if i set the sight back up one notch it would hit right on at 175 yards, which is how far i can get away from that target.
I may take a shoot at it at that distance for the heck of it one of these days, if i do i`ll post outcome.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed May 30, 2012 12:11 pm

Your smokin' now Pitch!

To fully appreciate an excellent load and to have confidence in it, there should be a minimun of 10 shots fired---nice and slow...5 shots is childs play.........15 or 20 will really show the load's capabilities. 50 yards tells very little with rifle loads. I can't begin to remember how many loads I have had that shot great at 50, but were dismal at 100.

Keep shootin'....keep shootin'..........---------Sixgun

smokenrust · Post by **smokenrust** » Thu May 31, 2012 10:08 am

" i very seldom shoot over 100 yards at anything, deer are generaly in the 50-75 range."
Pitchy, at 50 yards you dang near have them stumbling over your feet... You must treat them like pets... The few around here I think must have spies... If I go out to the field, they are only half way across it, but if I bring the gun with, then they are across the forty... LOL
But at night they come up to the yard and tease the dog... an munch in the garden...that is when we have one.

I'll be waiting for that max limit paper printing pictures

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Thu May 31, 2012 12:37 pm

Looks like you found your load for her, good going
I ordered long starline brass & a new mold for that old 38-55
then back to starting all over again, but then thats half the fun

ollogger

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Here ya go, 175 yards off a sandbag, sight raised one notch.
I`m pretty happy with that, if that high one would of been with the others it would of been a four inch group.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:55 pm

That 175 yard group is very good. With some practice, I'm betting it would be even tighter, although velocity spread may begin to be a factor. Regardless, any deer at 175 yards is in deep trouble if it gets in your sights.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:26 pm

Thanks Kirk, i`ve never shot at a deer over 100 yards, most under 50 so i`m in good shape.

smokenrust · Post by **smokenrust** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:40 pm

That 175 yard target didn't stand a chance with your eagle eye and that 76.

Sure looks good from here.
Now you know that 175 yards isn't out of the question now.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:57 pm

thats pretty darn good Pitchy, that there rabbit gun is taking shape. Now get that three wheeler fuelled n' get over 'ere

N