OT - . 44 Pistol Home Defense Loading

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:29 pm

JohndeFresno

I think you're on exactly the right track. I think you might like doing some water jug penetration tests. I'm pretty sure if a bullet can't overpenetrate water, it won't overpenetrate a criminal either. But you can test for this by shooting known loads, like the 125g .357 or the 200gr .44 gold dots, or .45 ACP. Adjust mv to get the results you want. And then post the results please.

Regards,

Grizz

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:37 pm

Yes,
My friend John has extracted a promise from me that upon my demise that one goes to him.
John will give it a good home, I am pleased with that.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:13 pm

mescalero1, since you brought them up, aren't the Speer Gold Dots just as good, if not better, than the "older model" flying ashtrays? I think I read somewhere they are, or is that just advertizing hype? jd45

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:34 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Yes,
My friend John has extracted a promise from me that upon my demise that one goes to him.
John will give it a good home, I am pleased with that.

er...you mean JohndeFresno - right?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:42 pm

Grizz wrote:JohndeFresno

I think you're on exactly the right track. I think you might like doing some water jug penetration tests. I'm pretty sure if a bullet can't overpenetrate water, it won't overpenetrate a criminal either. But you can test for this by shooting known loads, like the 125g .357 or the 200gr .44 gold dots, or .45 ACP. Adjust mv to get the results you want. And then post the results please.

Regards,

Grizz

Good idea, Grizz.

As a matter of fact, I believe that I have all of the above already loaded, including some commercial loadings of each. I have been stuck in town with family matters for the last several months, but now that some loved ones are healing nicely, I hope to be able to head out for some shootin' time, soon. I'll load up my 6 grain Bullseye/250 gr. Keith loads, get a bunch of bleach bottles or similar, and run the tests as soon as I can. 86er has been good at sharing his efforts, so I'll pitch in a little when the dust settles around here.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:39 pm

Big slow bullet.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:41 pm

No, not John DeFresno,
No have not tried the Speers, thanks for the tip.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:09 pm

along the big, slow bullet idea my .44 405g departs the redhawk muzzle around 947 fps and that penetrates like a 45/70. Not much more recoil than .44 spcl. I wouldn't want to use it for social purposes if I had an alternative. I imagine that thing would overpenetrate at 300 fps.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:13 pm

I think you are correct in your assertions!

SPROCKET · Post by **SPROCKET** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:29 am

I may be telling you what you already know. But, Speer makes a .44 Special specific Gold Dot; #4427. Supposed to give more reliable expansion at .44 Special velocities.

I use those, driven by a warmish load of Unique in my HD gun.

cecil · Post by **cecil** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:41 am

11.0 grains unique, Fed 150 primer, 44 mag case and hard LFC under a Rem or hdy 180 jhp gives 1250 fps from 4 in 629 (chrono'd). Excellent accuracy, controllable and likely significantly less penetration than a heavier slower load.

9.1 grains 231 , Fed 150 primer, 44 mag case and hard LFC under a Speer 200 gdhp gets about 1070 fps from 4 incher, and again excellent accuracy.

The accuracy of these loads seems dependent on having cylinder throat diameters of .430 or less.

aka zeke

shdwlkr · Post by **shdwlkr** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:12 pm

In my 44 special I like 255 grain lead on top of 6.5-7.5 grains of Unique( I think) from a 6.5 inch barreled pistol and in my 45 auto I like 230 hp or solid can't remember the powder charge but they fly at about 830 fps

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:57 pm

Cecil,
Your first load is pretty close to what I was first considering (see first post of the thread), and I have fired a similar loading in the past and liked it - 9.4 gr. Unique for 1188 fps. It didn't seem to have a lot of flash, was very easy to handle, but harder on the ears than a "big, slow bullet," as Old Savage calls it.

I have also like the 200 gr. Gold Dots at various speeds, and they expand well; Sprocket has it right about the 200 gr .44 Special Gold Dot (instead of the heavier Mag bullet).

But - Zounds! After taking stock of all of the milk I'd have to drink to gather enough bottles for the test (and the wet newspaper thing is a bit messy and involved to get the media into proper calibration) - Grizz, I decided to see what other testers have done, and then add a simple test of my Keith bullet .44 caliber loads to the mix.

Since claims are most frequently made that 10% gelatin solution is pretty close to live target tissue, the following stats use that medium. To translate it back into distances that the same bullet would travel in water, you use the multiplier of 2 to 1, more or less. One source says that 2.25 is more accurate; and another source says that you should use 1.8 with stacked milk cartons because of the cardboard in between each segment (the milk container packaging material).

Any way, we can simply say that if this chart shows 13 inch penetration using the gel material, it would equate to 26 inches of water.

SOURCES: Sanow tables; other tables
This is a partial listing, showing only loads used in 4 or 5 inch test handguns, in a limited set of pistol calibers, and excluding the whizz-bang loads like Glasers and other fragmenting loads. Sorry, I just don't go there.

The loads that I like, and as mentioned by Grizz, are in bold print. I added the Sanow "One Shot Stop" percentage info just as a reference. Even though this information is contested to various degrees, it is interesting to note that all the high power rounds shown here - 94% and above - penetrate 13 inches in the gel, which is also about the ideal amount of penetration per FBI requirements, if I remember correctly.

And that is what I am trying to accomplish, 12 to 13 inches penetration (24-26 in. in water).

You will notice that the proposed 250 gr. .44 Caliber Keith SWC medium lead load is not shown on this chart. That is because I have not yet tested it. If anybody has worked up the 250 grainer Keith .44 load to penetrate within that range, please feel free to post and I'll start testing the loads with either Bullseye or Unique at the velocity that you are using! I ain't lazy - I just like to be efficient and pool resources.

Shdwlkr, for primary carry, I also prefer the 230 grain HP's (Federal HST) in my .45 ACP. That works out to something that is as near to perfection as there is for a hand held defense piece, in my opinion.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:05 pm

good table of data, thanks for posting. here's some visual information with what looks to be very similar results, are they the same source?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Gel%20Testing.html

Grizz

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:43 pm

Grizz wrote:good table of data, thanks for posting. here's some visual information with what looks to be very similar results, are they the same source?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Gel%20Testing.html

Grizz

Grizz,

Brassfetcher is a good site, and I added one or two from that site this evening. Most of the others are from Sanow statistics and are also reported by Chuck Hawks on his website. One is an entirely different source that I no longer remember.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:25 pm

OK - bumped to the top again with updated stuff:

Here is the latest research. I'm still unable to get to the range due to family needs at this time.

I found some interesting information espoused by Veral Smith, noted bullet caster and author and proprietor of LBT Bullet Molds, regarding penetration.

He came up with a formula that reportedly predicts penetration for flatpoint, non-expanding cast bullets. If his formula is correct, then I would have to get my 250 grainer down to around 500 fps ( ! ) in order to keep it from penetrating past 13 inches. I guess that would allow me to fire, reload the cylinder, and be ready to fire again by the time the bullets hit the target!

This means that the case would hold a very limited amount of Bullseye or Unique powder; I like to fill a case to at least 50% if at all possible, for more consistency in loads, regardless of a firearm's position.

* * * * *
Veral Smith's Penetration Formula for Flatpoint, Non-expanding cast pistol bullets:
Penetration (in.) = (Bullet wt. in pounds x Impact velocity / diameter of Meplat in inches) / 5
* * * * *

I cannot remember if Unique is position sensitive to a point that the 50% rule does not matter; but if this projected load would only fill the case about 36.8%, per the information I have available:
Unique 5.0 gr., 250 gr. .430 SWC Keith Bullet --> 718 fps approx.

Although there is apparently no exact information on using IMR Trail Boss for this light of a load in the .44 Magnum shell, I correlated some .45 Colt, .44 Special and .44 Russian listings to arrive at this approximate load:
Trail Boss 6.0 gr., 250 gr. .430 SWC Keith Bullet --> 828 fps approx. (Trail Boss is much more bulky)

QuickLoad has NO Trail Boss data in its workings, so it can provide me with no clues as to how to load it up; so I will need to make a visual inspection as to how much a case is filled up. But I am pretty sure that it will be over 50% with this bulky stuff.

You see, I purchased a sizable amount of these somewhat soft 250 grain bullets for loading into a .44 Special Bulldog. All along, I have thought that it would have been an ideal low velocity defense round for that handgun; but then I never bought that little snubby, opting instead for a great deal on a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Mag silhouette (10.5 in. bbl.) sixgun. And I want to load the bullets into my 44 magnum brass before our ever-so-helpful gubmint bans the use and storage of lead in our garages. If this takes place, California will do it first, you can bet your life on it!

Okay - so if Mr. Smith's formula is correct, and using the measurement of .280 in. for the meplat of a standard Keith SWC .44 bullet, here are the workups in my spreadsheet for loading a bullet that does not (in my estimation) overpenetrate in a home defense situation. As you can see, unless I switch to Trail Boss, I am using too little powder with the conventional offerings to fill the case properly. 5.0 gr. Unique would apparently be way too much; and Bullseye is similar in dosage.

For those of you who are totally geeked out on 'puters like me, I show the formula used in the spreadsheet - at the top. It allows you to run your computation without a "Division by 0" error, if you have not entered all of the information. Basically, the result of multiplying the elements must equal more than 0, or your final cell shows a blank space. If none of this makes sense, just skip over this paragraph.

I am eager to try this out, but I'll need a full day to set up the water bags or gather the milk cartons or whatever to test this.

Perhaps 86er would want to test a heavy cast load like this one his dummy! (hint hint)

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:52 pm

This is very interesting and just winging it, I don't think 500 fps is that far off to get the penetration you want. How many water jugs is 26"? I guess it varies with manufacturer.

Makes me wonder about the comparison of 9mm 147g flat nose fmj to doubletap 124g speer gold dots. I need to fill some jugs and put a fresh battery in the chrono.

At least with pistols you don't need a dozen jugs with every bang.

Grizz

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:19 pm

Since there is some resistance difference between the jugs or bags depending upon the thickness of the jugs, bags, milk cartons or whatever, I'll need to test at least two loads - a "known" as shown above as a control and at least one loading of the proposed heavy lead SWC (250 gr. Keith) load, since the divisor for the water figure will be somewhere between 1.80 and 2.25, depending upon the thickness of the walls of the containers.

But I'll work it out, Griff!

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:35 pm

I think you are on the right track. Light hollowpoints are best for defense, heavier bullets are better for hunting, where you need complete penetration though through animals with thicker hides than humans have. Also, higher velocities give more expansion which translates to less penetration, something you want in a caliber like .44 Mag, for defense anyway.

I have made my defense load for my 5" 629. It is the 180 XTP over 10.0 gr of Titegroup for 1350 fps. Recoil is noticeable but not bad. I have one I shot into milk jugs that is fully expanded and then some. Probably would make some sense to back this down a bit, but of course firing into water always shows more expansion than into a body (if I'm not mistaken). I'm pretty sure it would do the job.

Titegroup is very clean burning and it not at all "powder position sensitive".

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:04 am

PaulB wrote:I think you are on the right track. Light hollowpoints are best for defense, heavier bullets are better for hunting, where you need complete penetration though through animals with thicker hides than humans have. Also, higher velocities give more expansion which translates to less penetration, something you want in a caliber like .44 Mag, for defense anyway.

I have made my defense load for my 5" 629. It is the 180 XTP over 10.0 gr of Titegroup for 1350 fps. Recoil is noticeable but not bad. I have one I shot into milk jugs that is fully expanded and then some. Probably would make some sense to back this down a bit, but of course firing into water always shows more expansion than into a body (if I'm not mistaken). I'm pretty sure it would do the job.

Titegroup is very clean burning and it not at all "powder position sensitive".

Paul - do you remember how far that load traveled? Or do you recall how many jugs were penetrated? Where these the one gallon plastic jugs - or what? This is close to one of the loads that I started this merry-go-round with. If the slug made it through, say, 26 inches, then it would roughly be the equivalent of 13 inches in 10% gel or human tissue (2:1) - as an approximation, of course.

After spending a few hours workin', readin', researchin', scratching my noggin and computin', I am coming to the conclusion that big and slow is great, but 250 grains worth of lead in a .44 Mag case for URBAN (spell that c-i-t-y) home defense is way too big, even at Wham-o speeds - unless I play with Trail Boss.

I'm beginning to think that the FBI, Sanow and Mitchell, and 4,000 Police Rangemasters might have a clue (

) when they gave the nod to the 200 grain Gold Dot and its cousins at around 900-1000 fps; and that the fine folks at Cor-Bon just might know what they are doing with their 1200 fps 180 grain .44 load (

) - I think they use XTP's, too.

If so, then I'll relegate the heavier loads for hog and woods type use and go back to eyeing my 180 semi jackets as originally intended; or at least moving down a bit in bullet weight.

I'm going to pick a relatively s-l-o-w load to test the big lead globs as soon as I can get away and I'll publish the grand results.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:32 am

Paul - do you remember how far that load traveled?

No, I was not organized enough to write that down. Some day I'll try again to get that info.

I read someone doesn't drink enough milk to have enough cartons around. I have the opposite problem. My wife was nagging me because my garage is filling up with plastic 1 gal milk jugs, just waiting to be shot. I do chug that milk down...

Maybe one way to do it is just start with my load, shoot some jugs, and just back down the powder until you get the penetration you want?

Somehow this seems academic to me. .44 is going to do the job no matter what. So the real aim should be limiting penetration (since the .44 probably has too much, usually) and limiting recoil so shot recovery is reasonable.

Maybe that's not academic after all, heh.

One good way to limit recoil is go to the lightest possible bullets...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:31 am

One good way to limit recoil is go to the lightest possible bullets...

Depends on velocity. A 9mm+P pushes a 124g gold dot around 1300 fps and recoils more than a 45 acp pushing a 230g bullet at 835 fps.

Another example, a 405g hard cast delivered from a 5-1/2" redhawk at 942 fps recoils MUCH LESS than a 355g bullet departing at supersonic velocities. And that 405 penetrates firewood like a 45/70.

Another example, a 525g hard cast exiting a guide gun at 1475 recoils MUCH LESS than a 425g bullet exiting the same rifle at 1963 fps. And that 525g load goes through about TWICE as many water jugs as the 425g.

Next inquiry is to determine if the 147g fmj fp 9mm outpenetrates the standard 9mm ball round and the jhps. It should, the question being by how much.....

In my experience, increasing bullet weight and decreasing muzzle velocity increases penetration and decreases recoil.

cpt Dan Blodgett · Post by **cpt Dan Blodgett** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:18 pm

The late great skeeter skelton swore by the 44 spec with 240 SWC loaded to 1000 fps.
Hobies comments about using full length 44mag case have merit.
Think any way you slice it 240 grains at 900 - 1000 fps will change a miscreants outlook rather quickly and renders same quite harmless. Floors could require some elbow grease to clean up after everyone has finished investigating, but ya should still be around to supply said elbow grease.

Also they are easy on the hands out of a ruger blackhawk, bisley black hawk or om vaquero with 7.5 inch barrel

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:50 am

OK - my update: The 200-240 grainers have been recommended repeatedly for a low-penetration, powerful defense round, or else a 180 grainer not much past 1200 fps - all of which show up in commercial self-defense loads for the .44 Magnum/Special. However, with 300 rounds of the 250 grain variety (which were initially intended for a .44 Bulldog load), this frugal soul is determined to put them to use with a very slow launch speed - around 700-800 fps. I recognize that it is a good idea to have a fairly stout load for general use and for law enforcement, in which one faces a variety of situations. However, my focus (once again) is for an urban load. Quite bluntly, I want it to punch a big deep hole reliably. But after doing so, I want to try to prevent the bullet from penetrating my house and the neighbor's house and keep traveling through my neighbor!

I have tentatively ended up with an intended load that is the equivalent of the old .44 Russian load (246 grain lead bullet in .429 caliber, propelled by 23 grains of blackpowder for 750 fps). This was originally an 1870's loading that Russian military attache General Alexander Gorloff loved, having successfully used it for hog hunts in America. In fact, it resulted in a lucrative contract for Smith & Wesson, who tooled that caliber into their Nr. 3 revolver and sold the pistols to arm the Imperial Russian Army.

Ideally, the load should fill the case, as did the old blackpowder loading, to insure consistent ignition, regardless of how the revolver is held. Along these lines, Hodgdon's 2008 Manual carries an article by Charles E. Petty, starting on Pg. 61, "Cowboy Gunpowder."

The author's tests verify that Bullseye, WW-231, and Unique are position sensitive, at least with reduced loads of the type that we are considering. He writes, "Cases that aren't at least half full are almost certain to show a loss of velocity." I note that low velocity loads with Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot and others fill less than 40% of the usable case capacity (minus the space occupied by the seated bullet). The article shows that a load of 6.5 grains of Unique behind a 255 LSWC bullet can vary by 185 fps, which is significant when the desired velocity is only 721 fps.

Titegroup, Petty states, is "position tolerant." The article shows that 5.5 grains launches a 255 LSWC bullet at 726 fps with the powder forward, while the bullet travels at 753 fps if the powder is back against the primer - a difference of only 27 fps. But even this shows that it is not * entirely * position insensitive.

A better solution appears to be found with Trail Boss. It has close to the same burn rate as Titegroup, but it occupies three times the space, according to Petty's article.

A 6.0 grain load of Trail Boss should produce something like 750-800 fps with the medium soft lead 250 grain Keith bullet, based upon my extrapolation of existing data with similar loads; no QuickLoad data is available as stated earlier. A visual examination shows that this load fills up approximately 80% of the usable cartridge space (minus the room needed for the seated bullet). This is just about ideal, eliminating the powder position problem, and I suspect that I have found optimum limited penetration load for these relatively heavy cast bullets. Now it is time to test the hypothesis.

I am commandeering jugs from my neighbors, friends, and family in preparation for the test. More later.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:03 am

I just loaded 200 .44 Special rounds with 7.5 gr. Unique under a 250 gr. Keith bullet. I have "a few" .44 Mags loaded with 9 gr. Unique under a 240 gr. swaged HP. I would not hesitate to use these in my house. I know for a fact that they will not leave the house except through a window.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:21 am

Hobie wrote:I just loaded 200 .44 Special rounds with 7.5 gr. Unique under a 250 gr. Keith bullet. I have "a few" .44 Mags loaded with 9 gr. Unique under a 240 gr. swaged HP. I would not hesitate to use these in my house. I know for a fact that they will not leave the house except through a window.

What are the velocities? The reason I ask is that .45 230g ball penetrates something like five or six jugs of water. Are you sure a thru and thru can't get thru a wall?

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:25 am

Big bullet.... moving slow = knockdown power

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:23 am

Grizz wrote:
Hobie wrote:I just loaded 200 .44 Special rounds with 7.5 gr. Unique under a 250 gr. Keith bullet. I have "a few" .44 Mags loaded with 9 gr. Unique under a 240 gr. swaged HP. I would not hesitate to use these in my house. I know for a fact that they will not leave the house except through a window.
What are the velocities? The reason I ask is that .45 230g ball penetrates something like five or six jugs of water. Are you sure a thru and thru can't get thru a wall?

[*]About 900 fps. Yes, I'm sure. It has been tested... BTW, mine are brick walls, built in 1926 using mortar of that period. These loads won't penetrate the window frames either. Got to be glass... Sometimes, it is the vagaries of life, the odd twists and turns that show us truth.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:55 pm

Hobie wrote:I just loaded 200 .44 Special rounds with 7.5 gr. Unique under a 250 gr. Keith bullet. I have "a few" .44 Mags loaded with 9 gr. Unique under a 240 gr. swaged HP. I would not hesitate to use these in my house. I know for a fact that they will not leave the house except through a window.

2 very good loads. I've used both extensively for over 30 years to take many deer and not just a few bear. Chances are, bad guys would have trouble surviving them too

22

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:14 pm

I'm loading up the .44 Mag rounds today at 5.6 gr. and 6.0 gr. Trail Boss, respectively, 6 each.

After the test, I won't use Trail Boss for pistol loads, because I prefer to use a progressive press to crank those rounds out. This powder must be watched v-e-r-y carefully. Maybe the scoop method might need to be employed, or else a turret press with the Lee AutoDisk. But I'm not sure that will be as reliable, either.

I am quite disappointed, because Trail Boss fills the cases perfectly, and is not that much more expensive than Bullseye when purchased in larger jugs. And... I remember posts from more than one contributor here and elsewhere stating that the large grained Trail Boss does NOT get jammed up in a powder measure like the RCBS Uniflow. Well, not true - at least, not for me.

My uniflow is only a few years old (purchased new), in perfect condition, and the only other powder it cannot handle reliably (so far) is that super flaky Red Dot stuff.

I follow all the standard procedures - consistent stroke, tapping three times with each load, and so on. But, in testing the powder application before I started loading, I found that it would still occasionally throw a light load and then a heavy load for the next batch. It's true that one cannot double the charge with the loads that I'm using, but we should still expect consistent loads. I'm talking about a whole grain variance, and possibly more with a few that I didn't measure.

So - maybe your powder measure is different than mine, for some reason; but I would caution you against loading Trail Boss with a progressive press, which is harder to check for each round. I'll just have to go back to Unique or Bullseye, with their much smaller volume, or else single-stage load every Trail Boss round. Ya can't have it all.

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:25 pm

Mike Rintoul's bullet are ready! They are on the way to me. I've been told they expand after passing through a down jacket and sweatshirt into test medium. The expanded diameter has been reported to be up to 1"! They expand from 670 fps to 1150 fps without losing petal. I can't wait to try them and report!

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:25 pm

86er wrote:Mike Rintoul's bullet are ready!

I didn't think that he'd get tooled up that quickly. Wow! If he's selling the component bullets, I especially want to get some. Keep us posted! Let me know, please, if and when he is taking smaller orders (e.g. 200 bullets to start).

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:20 pm

My experience with Titegroup is that, in the warm loads I use, it is VERY insensitive to powder position, both for velocity and impact point on the target. Don't know if that continues to apply for 750fps loads. The bad thing about this powder is that it takes very small charges, so you cannot tell if you have a double charged case. I compensate by filling the case and seating the bullet immediately. I also weigh charges because I just never got around to buying a powder measure, and I don't shoot vast volumes so the extra time does not bother me.

As to recoil, obviously the best combination for low recoil is light bullets at low velocities. I think it would be worth trying the 180 jhp's into milk jugs at 800fps or 900fps.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:45 pm

Paul, it might be toughing finding a powder with reliable ignition that will handle such a light 180 gr. bullet at such a slow speed, unless I use Trail Boss or switch to .44 Spcl cases. I have run across several excellent 44 Spcl. loads that would work well for what I want, but one of the parameters of this experiment is to use the Mag cases in my .44 Magnum (for purposes of consistency, dealing with only one type of brass, and possibly saving wear on the cylinder and forcing cone). And I'm still scrambling to get enough jugs of a consistent size from friends, relatives and neighbors to run the experiment - so far it doesn't look like I'll be able to test a whole lot of rounds unless I wait another month and tell everybody to drink more milk!

My focus is to use cast bullets for home defense, readily available and relatively easy to produce in the event of a breakdown of the supply chain - oh, yeah - it's already happened! But it's now more of an intellectual exercise, since I've gone ahead and purchased several Silvertip 200 grainers for the .44 Mag, and have quite a few rounds for the .45 ACP (Federal HST 230 grainers).

Mike Rintoul may have found the answer with a new type of bullet he is manufacturing or having manufactured, as noted above. Of course, it's not a cast bullet, but in all practicality it may be the best solution for the .44 Mag as a backup defense gun in an urban setting.

Interestingly enough, I noted that the standard 1.610" or 1.620" overall length is almost always quoted on the various sites, such as LoadData.Com, for the big Keiths. Well, when I loaded them up this evening, that pushed the bullet down to the top groove (almost flush with the shoulder).

I checked my Speer 13th Edition Manual which quotes 1.710" for the Keith 250 grainer, not 1.610" as with most other sources. That puts the crimp where it belongs, in the topmost crimp groove. Since I loaded the bullets both ways, I'll run some chrono's on them to note the difference. It should be noted that the longer bullet (1.710") is only usable in a revolver - it is too long for rifles / carbines, per Speer.

I hope to be able to shoot before this week ends (we've had lots of family emergencies around here).

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:54 pm

PaulB wrote:My experience with Titegroup is that, in the warm loads I use, it is VERY insensitive to powder position, both for velocity and impact point on the target...

I looked up some comparative loads for 44 Mag at lower velocities, and it appears that TiteGroup is about the same in dosage as Bullseye and Red Dot.

I already have 16 powders on my shelf, but maybe I should look into adding TiteGroup just for these cast loads. I've heard a lot of other folks praise it, too.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:56 am

If you get Trail Boss to shoot consistant velocity loads I will be surprised. It is the most difficult powder to work with.

I use two powders for the 44 spec & 44 mag. Unique & 296/H110.

Over the past 30 years, I have used many different powder for the 44's. I always go back to the two above.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:26 am

Unique, Bullseye and then 296 were my first three powders - covering .38 through .44 Mag and .45 ACP loads. They are always on the shelf. I agree - they are quite versatile.

I was pretty excited about Trail Boss, but with my loading experience today I'll move back to Bullseye, unless another powder (like Titegroup) proves to be more consistent. My test with be with some Trail Boss loads and a Bullseye load.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:52 am

I have to interject something here.

First, I agree on powders. Unique, W296/H110 and MAYBE 2400 are the powders for the .44 Spec/Mag and .45 Colt. I prefer Unique over 2400 because it uses less mass and a pound goes further. It is a known quantity, too.

Second, Titegroup is still on our shelves at the gun shop. There's a reason. Oh, it might be a great powder BUT it isn't popular. I haven't sold a single pound since the 1st of December. I haven't sold any Bullseye either!

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:38 pm

Tightgroup is a temperature sensitive powder. Cold effects it's burn rate. And it is a dirty powder, kinda like the old Unique only more so.

Me no like that stuff.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:44 pm

Hobie wrote:... I haven't sold any Bullseye either!

When I started reloading for the .45 ACP a few years ago, Bullseye was very popular for target and plinking here; and I use it for two of my three loads for target loads in that caliber. Don't you Easterners use it for that? If not, what has supplanted it, besides Unique (my third of three loads)?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:46 pm

Lefty Dude wrote:Tightgroup is a temperature sensitive powder. Cold effects it's burn rate. And it is a dirty powder, kinda like the old Unique only more so.

Me no like that stuff.

Good to know, but that would probably not be a factor in a house load, Lefty. How cold are you talking about?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:53 am

I finally was able to gather enough plastic bottles and get away for a test.

My conclusion:
A .44 Magnum 250 grain medium cast bullet, even with light loads, is definitely NOT the way to go for urban home defense. The 200 grain variety makes a lot more sense in a .44 caliber.

There were some apparent anomalies that presented themselves during the test, especially with the previously mentioned "Cast Bullet Penetration Formula" (to coin a phrase) by Veral Smith et al. It appears that the numbers don't accurately predict what a big, long 250 grain Keith .44 bullet will do - it severely underestimates the Keith's penetration.

It would have been nice to run several tests, but the two Keith loads ate up 10 6" wide water bottles each, so many more bottles were needed for repeat testing. I will present what I have.

Interestingly, the first three bottles split with all loads. With the cast bullets, the projectile then proceeded through 7 more bottles making only a neat little hole.

- - - - - - - -
Firearm: Taurus Model 44 Stainless, .44 Magnum, 6.5 inch barrel
Control Bullet: .44 caliber Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point, 200 gr. (factory)
Cast Bullets: .44 caliber (.430) cast bullet, BHN 11, 250 grains
Mt. Baldy Keith SWC (Lyman #429421)
Meplat .320 inch
- - - - - - - -

RESULTS (Fired 20 ft. from bottles):

CONTROL - Gel / Flesh penetration Vs. Water
The Winchester Western .44 Special 200 gr. Silvertip is listed in the Sanow / Mitchell tables as:
Muzzle Velocity: 819 fps Penetration 10.4 inches
It SHOULD have penetrated my water bottles about 15 inches, given the 1.5" of water to 1" of gel, a formula that takes into consideration the plastic walls of each container.

It did. The WW Silvertip penetrated 15 inches, as accurately as I could tell by marking where the bullet fell inside the third water bottle, at about 750 fps.
Penetration 15" water (equivalent to 10 inches in gelatin media)
Diameter: .674 Inch
Weight: 198.4 gr.

KEITH LOADS
Load #0111 -
250 Keith cast bullet, BHN 11 (described above); Trail Boss (IMR) 6 gr., CCI 300 Primer
COAL 1.710 in. 646 fps
Penetration 54" water (equivalent to 36 inches in gelatin media)
Diameter: Virtually unchanged
Weight: Virtually unchanged

Load #0112 -
250 Keith cast bullet, BHN 11 (described above); Bullseye 6 gr., CCI 300 Primer
COAL 1.710 in. 780 fps
Penetration 57" water (equivalent to 38 inches in gelatin media)
Diameter: Virtually unchanged
Weight: Virtually unchanged

As you can see, it would be difficult if not impossible to create a load with a low enough velocity to bring down the penetration to around 13 inches in flesh, (19.5 inches in the water bottle media used for this test). Such a low velocity would present the possibility of rounds sticking in the barrel, I believe.

So - this bullet seems to belie the calculations offered by the Veral Smith penetration formula given earlier, and a lighter bullet, probably 200 grains, seems to be the best choice for the limited penetration that I am looking for in a .44 Magnum.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:29 am

Neat!

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:54 am

Great report!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:33 am

JohndeFresno ,

That's a great comparison test. Thanks for that. The 200 is my house load for my redhawk.

It's the meplat that makes the keith penetrate like that, not just the weight.

I had a fjm fp 147g 9mm load that I launched at 4 water jugs. Similar to your results, it blew the bottom out of the first two and drilled the last two. That's a subsonic 9mm with a meplat rather than a round nose or hollow point. I plan to do a test of those three with adequate jugs to measure the results like you did.

Thanks for posting that.

Grizz

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:05 am

I have spent countless hours reading about, listening to and trying "home defense load testing" and you can argue all day long over caliber, bullet weight, factory vs reload etc. When it all settles out, the answer is:

.40 or larger caliber
200 to 240 grain bullet
designed to expand
and driven at 800 to 1,000 fps

Also, accurate is important, but manageable recoil for faster follow up shots is more important
powder should be selected based on barrel length for reduced muzzle flash and reduced blast rather than wringing out the last few fps possible

And finally even understanding all that I still enjoy a good discussion of what works best.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:02 pm

Awesome test....thanks for posting that. I keep my Super Blackhawk stoked with the 200 gr. Federal 44 Special LHP(very accurate and it is lead vs. the aluminum Jacket of Win. version) but when out in the woods where bears or pitt bulls can be a concern, I load up with the .431 Keith 250 from Mt. Baldy.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:38 pm

Thanks for comments, hints and suggestions, all.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:28 am

kimwcook wrote:I don't know if Glaser makes a round for the 44 special, but I'd take a look at them. The problem with most hollow points is that the first wall of sheetrock they go through they're now solids and they just keep on going.

Yep, and .45 Colt, too.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:34 am

Grizz wrote:I think Hobie has the right idea and I think 1300 fps is way more velocity than you need. My redhawk gets store bought 44 spcl loads in the house and I think they're under 1000 fps. Whatever, no recoil and NO ONE is gonna get past 200gr silvertips!

However, I have no experience with the bullets you asked about. I think if you keep them in the 38 spcl +P snubby velocity range you've got a winner.

I agree with your use of the mag cases for all loads, same thing here. I guess I'll tag the spcl loads with a rattlecan to keep the obvious obvious.

+1 on that! I don't bother marking my hot .45 Colt loads as such, because I'll only have OM Rugers in .45 Colt around, but as for .45 acp and .38, I have some "less than top end" guns in those calibers, so I won't load anything hot in those calibers, unless I clearly label it, and intend to use it up immediately. If they're hot enough to blow up cheaper guns, I even label the cases with a sharpie, or mark the case heads with a big red X. Having a .38 around is why I don't use any of the .357 loads using a .38 case.