OT- SxS 45/70 (86er your input especially appreciated)

[GANJIRO]

As a kid after reading African safari books by Ruark, Bell, and Taylor one of my dream guns was a SxS big bore rifle. Of course they have always been out of my price range. After hearing for years first from EAA, then Spartan Arms about their introduction of the Baikal (Russia) made SxS 45/70 rifle seems like Remington finally delivered with their model SPR22. I've owned a Baikal made 12 gauge SxS which was as tough and reliable as a T-34 Tank, not purdy like a H&H or a... PURDY but was beautiful in it's own rugged way. I like the feature of adjustable regulation of the barrels, and the factory 28,000 CUP pressure limit (same suggested by Marlin for their 1895 45/70 for liability reasons) is no problem for me since a 500 grain lead slug at 1400 FPS IMHO is more than enough oomph both for my shoulder and the game at the receiving end. I was really wanting a Browning 1886 45/70 (no higher than $1000.00) but that well seems to have dried up. These SxS 45/70 can be found NIB for the average price of $900.00. I am in line for a very small inheritance that should cover this cost (if I skip a couple months of medical insurance too). I know the fit and finish of a Browning versus a Baikal is no contest but that is apples to oranges here anyways. What do you guys think of this SxS 45/70 at this price? Thanks for the input.

[2ndovc]

I think that's pretty darned cool!
Might just have to get one of those!


jb

[86er]

I like these guns and won't discourage you from getting one. The only shortcoming right now is the barrel regulation. I've had one with the Baikal name on it and a client brought me his Remington SP22 because he couldn't regulate it. I got it but it took 5 hours on day one and 3 more hours on day two. You have to have realistic expectations. Double rifles regulate with ONE LOAD. Just because the regulation is user adjustable does not mean it can be adjusted for one cartridge to another. Only one barrel moves BTW. It will still regulate with one loading, and if you get the point of impacts within 2 1/2 inches of point of aim you did good. Understand, that is a 5 inch spread between each barrels point of impact at 50 yards. What some folks are doing is setting the rear sight for the right barrel point of impact and just holding appropriately for the left barrel to hit the target. That's not really the right way to do it but on the other hand if your first shot is reliably true to aim the left barrel is sort of an afterthought. The regulating takes time, skill and precision. I have made three double rifles in 45-70, one hammergun and two hammerless. The fastest I have ever been able to regulate was about 3 days worth of slowly spaced shooting, wiring and adjustment. One of the reasons the Remington is affordable is that this time consuming, skilled adjustment is left to the purchaser. We had the Baikal regulated with 300 gr bullets at 1850 fps and the best adj was the right hitting one inch left and one inch low of aim with the left barrel hitting 3 inches left and two inches high. No amount of adjustment or changing or loads would do better. The Remington I just regulated fired 405 gr Remington bullets at 1330 fps with no cross over at 40 yards and both point of impacts within 2 1/2 inches of point of aim. Go slow, be careful and adjust very slowly. Do not rest the gun, shoot offhand to regulate it. Don't shoot right and left consecutively. I shot two on the right, and waited 3 minutes. Then fired two on the left. Adjusted if necessary while waiting the three minutes. If you are an accuracy nut you will never be satisfied. If you need more power, you will also be disappointed. We loaded 405 grs in 100 fps lots of 8 rounds starting at 1100 fps up through 1800 fps. At 1600 fps the cases would not extract properly and the regulation was extremely eradic. Like I said, the 1300 fps loading, once chronographed out of the Remington actually were 1330 average and regulated properly. The 28,000 psi doesn't mean much overall. You load a double rifle to regulation, as opposed to regulating to a certain load. Much over 28,000 psi will cause bad extraction and poor groups anyway. I think this type of rifle would be great for close range hogs and black bears, and for a follow-up rifle where you need to go in after medium game that was hit and may get up again. You can get two quick shots if for example, the wounded deer gets up and tries to run again. Just like swinging a shotgun. If you can get Punch , Nosler Solid or Barnes Banded Solid to hit close to point of aim, with a 400 or 450 grain loading it would be adequate for real close range bison, water buffalo and such so long as a PH or your buddy was there with a rifle as well. Let us know if you decide to get one and how it goes. If you need verbal assistance in regulating, give me a call and I'll gladly walk you through it.

[TedH]

86'er gave you some very good information. If you want more to read, go over to the double rifle section at the Accurate Reloading Forum. There are several guys over there with the Remington doubles. There was one guy that was getting some darn fine groups with his, after some tinkering.

[GANJIRO]

86'er gave you some very good information. If you want more to read, go over to the double rifle section at the Accurate Reloading Forum. There are several guys over there with the Remington doubles. There was one guy that was getting some darn fine groups with his, after some tinkering.

Just don't mention there that you plan on using it on Cape Buffs or somebody is bound to get their panties into a bunch.
I will check the site out, I actually enjoy the place, thanks.

[GANJIRO]

I like these guns and won't discourage you from getting one. The only shortcoming right now is the barrel regulation. I've had one with the Baikal name on it and a client brought me his Remington SP22 because he couldn't regulate it. I got it but it took 5 hours on day one and 3 more hours on day two. You have to have realistic expectations. Double rifles regulate with ONE LOAD. (snip) If you can get Punch , Nosler Solid or Barnes Banded Solid to hit close to point of aim, with a 400 or 450 grain loading it would be adequate for real close range bison, water buffalo and such so long as a PH or your buddy was there with a rifle as well. Let us know if you decide to get one and how it goes. If you need verbal assistance in regulating, give me a call and I'll gladly walk you through it.

Aloha Joe, Thank you very much for the quick and very detailed response, if I decide to purchase this piece I shall certainly call you for barrel regulating instructions. My dream safari (on my budget) is to hunt wild Vancouver Bulls in the Big Island of Hawaii using a 45/70 either "Smelly Nelly" or better yet a SxS, and this would definitely be a one load only gun at below 28,000 cup. I have a question though. If you have an action with adequate receiver strength (barrel OD) and and lock-up why would a $900.00 gun have sticky extraction and not a $9000.00 or $90,000 dollar gun? Would polishing the chamber helps any? Please excuse me if this sounds like a silly question.

[86er]

It's a matter of time, care and cost. The chambers have to be concentric, polished and within precise measurements. The metallurgy must provide a rigid barrel that has minimal flex, vibration and variance with temperature and pressure. The extractor is a 1/2 rim, which actually grips less than 1/2 on the Rem and is a drop in part. A high dollar rig will have a serious extractor or ejector that grips slightly more than 1/2 and it will be fit to that gun precisely with a powerful spring (ejector) or a powerful extrator rod pushed by the drop. Additionally, the more powerful cartridges are no prone to brass expanding as much within their respective standard operating pressures.

[GANJIRO]

Thank you Joe, I guess you get what you pay for, if I decide to purchase the rifle I'm hoping it's a good value and I get more than what I pay. Thanks again.