Shooting Elmer Keith's Old #80 Powder

[Sixgun]

Fellow Shootists.
My good friend and fellow Leverguns.Com board member, w30wcf, graciously turned me on to about 700 grains of #80 powder. Most likely, it is from the 1920's or 1930's at the latest. Elmer liked 12 grains in his 44 Special handguns so I just had to see what it did.

I loaded 12 rounds of 44 Spl with 12 grains of this powder behind a 245 gr. Keith bullet, sized .431. Instead of shooting them in the below pictured Triplelock, I chose a S&W mod. 29 with a 10 and 5/8ths in. barrel. (Did not know what would happen )

Anyway, 6 rounds chronographed between 951 and 1031 fps with an average of 988. Its about equal to 8-8.5 of Unique, a potent load in his time, but a joke today. The powder had a funny smell when going off, something I have never smelled before. Don't know if it was the make-up or the age. Now that I know its safe, I'm gonna load the rest up and blast some steel.--------Sixgun

[J Miller]

Fellow Shootists.
My good friend and fellow Leverguns.Com board member, w30wcf, graciously turned me on to about 700 grains of #80 powder. Most likely, it is from the 1920's or 1930's at the latest. Elmer liked 12 grains in his 44 Special handguns so I just had to see what it did.

I loaded 12 rounds of 44 Spl with 12 grains of this powder behind a 245 gr. Keith bullet, sized .431. Instead of shooting them in the below pictured Triplelock, I chose a S&W mod. 29 with a 10 and 5/8ths in. barrel. (Did not know what would happen )

Anyway, 6 rounds chronographed between 951 and 1031 fps with an average of 988. Its about equal to 8-8.5 of Unique, a potent load in his time, but a joke today. The powder had a funny smell when going off, something I have never smelled before. Don't know if it was the make-up or the age. Now that I know its safe, I'm gonna load the rest up and blast some steel.--------Sixgun

Boy would I love to get my hands on that. I've got data for it for the .45 Colt. I think that would be a thrill.
But I have to totally disagree with you on one thing: A 245gr bullet at close to 1000 fps is NO joke. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Love that old Triple Lock.

Joe

[salvo]

Thats cool! Never seen yellow powder before.

[Don McDowell]

[Jay Bird]

Funny smell???? Everytime I'm around you, I get a funny smell.

p.s I see you got my(Jeep) loan ready.

[Sixgun]

Don,
Does the powder look the same in your can?

Sixgun jr.----You better look at the treasury note again---Its yo pappa!!!!!!!!------------------------Yo Pappa

[2ndovc]

Hey Jack. You really don't want to keep that tripple lock. It's really not up to your
exceptional standards.

You might as well put it up for sale. I'm sure I can get you a couple dollars for it!



jb

[mav]

Hey Sixgun,
based on Mr. McDowell's load data and my calculations you can load enough 32-20's (with 100 grain lead bullets) for the state cowboy shoot and have 5 extra to warm up with.

[KirkD]

Nice photo, Sixgun, except for that note with Obama's face on it. Being a Canadian, I'm a bit out of the know on what that is. Is it the new currency?

Don, that chart on the back should tell us what #80 is equivalent to by comparing our loads with other powders. It looks like it is a bit faster than 2400.

[Don McDowell]

Unfortunately all the #80 from that can was shot up long,long ago. The can was reused to contain a part of the surplus 4895 purchased in the early 1950's.

[JohndeFresno]

Very interesting!

For us chemistry-challenged types, and in simple language, what is it that makes this #80 powder brown instead of black or gray? I thought that all gunpowder consisted of some type of charcoal or other oxidized cellulose material, and a touch of graphite.

[John in MS]

You may want to VERY carefully consider whether you should use that powder or not.
I have seen yellow gunpowder before -- pulled from modern .223 ammunition that was
heated several times in a computer-controlled, experimental oven to 125 degrees F. while testing the temperature's effect on pressure and velocity.

There have been instances of modern 5.56mm ammo exploding when fired (catastrophic
firearms failure) due to having been stored in non-climate controlled conditions in Iraq and
Afghanistan (such as in a hot Conex, for example.) The powder's being heated/cooled
can change its ballistics even over one session of an hour or more, if heat reaches temps over 125-135 degrees (from memory). Several exposures to high heat (particularly over an hour per time) can cause it to become dangerous. From what I've been told by a researcher studying the subject, the deterioration always results in increased pressure, not lowered pressure.

In the absence of knowing whether original #80 was yellow or not -- and also due to not knowing the powder's storage history over the last many decades, -- and given the relative lack of knowledge when it was made re: stabilizing smokeless powder for LONG term storage -- I personally wouldn't risk it, myself.

Hope this helps,
John

[Sixgun]

John, Thanks! I'll take your advice as I don't know the history of this particular lot. I wish w30wcf would chime in as he is the expert on this old powder------------Sixgun

[Don McDowell]

I have a hunch the older powders were "white" powders.
John sent me some samples of some of the early factory powder used by Winchester in the 30wcf, and it looks alot like the 80 pictured here.

[John in MS]

It may be that the use of dark deterrent coatings came after these powders were in use. It may be perfectly fine, but is something of an unknown, for now. Hope W30WCF does chime in, as I've always enjoyed and learned from his posts!

John

[w30wcf]

According to Philip Sharpe in his book “Complete Guide To Handloading” , which contains a treasure trove of information regarding the early smokeless powders, SR80 (Sporting Rifle 80) is a BUFF COLORED powder (as Sixgun‘s pic shows) that was first introduced in 1913 by DuPont.

It was used in a variety of factory loaded cartridges whose pressures did not exceed 22,000 psi. Thus it was also used very successfully in mid range rifle loads with cast bullets and revolver cartridges. It was discontinued in 1939 and replaced by 4759, a slower burning powder.

Being a granulated powder, it flows very well through a powder measure. I have used it mostly in the .30-30 for short range and mid range loads where it has performed very well. One of the very best groups I ever fired with my .44-40 was produced with .44-40 cartridges loaded with SR80.

Colonel Townsend Whelen used SR80 in his target shooting and varmint hunting with the old time cartridges.

Regarding the smell…..Frank Marshall called it the “Perfume Powder”. To me, when fired, it smells more like a cross between perfume and a barnyard.

It is pretty neat to step back in time and use an early smokeless powder that was used both by the factories and our handloading pioneers………………..

Sixgun, glad to see that you are reliving a bit of history.

w30wcf

[KirkD]

w30wcf, when I look at the ballistics on that can of #80, it shows that 13.7 grains of #80 moves a 200 grain lead bullet at 1,300 fps. When I compare it with my own chronographed load data for 2400, I get 16 grains of 2400 moving a 200 grain lead bullet at 1,300 fps. It looks like #80 is even faster than 2400. I've not used faster powders like, say, Blue Dot, but it is looking comparable, which suggests that #80 has a very similar pressure to Black Powder when loaded for the same bullet and same muzzle velocity. What are your thoughts on this?

[JustaJeepGuy]

How much of the reason for the discontinuance of #80 is due to Elmer's replacing it with 2400 for his heavy .44 Spl loads?

[Hobie]

This sort of thing is pretty cool. I read Keith's stuff and it is neat to see the powder.

[Don McDowell]

How much of the reason for the discontinuance of #80 is due to Elmer's replacing it with 2400 for his heavy .44 Spl loads?

Probably not much.
My Guess is 2400,and 4759 ,came about and did a better job at this sort of thing than 80 did and so they dropped 80.

[CJM]

Of the old, original smokeless powders, only Bullseye and Unique are still around, both were part of Dupont spinning off the Hercules powder company under one of the first anti-monopoly lawsuits by the government. The other old powders like Hercules Hi-Vel pistol series and their Lightning and Sharpshooter rifle powders or Duponts #5 and #6 pistol powders, #80 which Dupont considered a rifle powder along with their IMR series - thats IMR-14, 15 and 17 - are long gone. IMR-15 and IMR17 had tin added to the formula just after WWI, and became the "half" series, IMR 15 1/2 and IMR 17 1/2. Then the four number series was begun, with powders like 1147, 1185 and 1204. It wasn't until the early 1930's that powders still available like IMR 4227 and IMR 3031 started to appear and replace the older four number IMR powders.

FYI - Nitro-cellulose is white to tan in color, depending on the base cellulose stock it's made from; saw dust, newspaper pulp, cotton etc. It's the graphite coating that most powders have that turns them dark gray.

[JohndeFresno]

[snip]
FYI - Nitro-cellulose is white to tan in color, depending on the base cellulose stock it's made from; saw dust, newspaper pulp, cotton etc. It's the graphite coating that most powders have that turns them dark gray.

Thank you, CJM. That certainly answers my question.

[w30wcf]

w30wcf, when I look at the ballistics on that can of #80, it shows that 13.7 grains of #80 moves a 200 grain lead bullet at 1,300 fps. When I compare it with my own chronographed load data for 2400, I get 16 grains of 2400 moving a 200 grain lead bullet at 1,300 fps. It looks like #80 is even faster than 2400. I've not used faster powders like, say, Blue Dot, but it is looking comparable, which suggests that #80 has a very similar pressure to Black Powder when loaded for the same bullet and same muzzle velocity. What are your thoughts on this?

Kirk,
I have tested SR80 and Sharpshooter in the .44-40 along with other modern propellants. Based on my testing, my lot of SR80 is a tick slower than Blue Dot. My 2 lots of Sharpshooter burn a tick or 2 faster than 2400. Both Sharpshooter, SR 80 and earlier, DuPont No. 2 smokeless were used in factory loadings. Since '73 Winchesters were designed to use b.p. and the earliest .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 smokeless cartridges circa 1895 were designed to be used in both the '73 and '92, pressures could not exceed those generated by b.p. Based on that, yes, SR80, along with Sharpshooter and DuPont No. 2 would produce b.p. velocities at pressures equal to or less than b.p. The same is true today of Blue Dot, 2400, 4227 and 4759.

CJM,
Very good synopsis. The earliest bulk smokeless rifle powders, DuPont No. 1 and No. 2 were close to off white in color. Interestingly Dupont #75, the predecessor to SR80 was a light gray in color. Discontinued HiVel#2 had a similar burning rate to #3031 and older HiVel#3 and RL7 are almost identical ballistically as some testing that I did 2 years ago indicated.
Smokeless powder history sure is interesting........

w30wcf

[KirkD]

Thanks, w30wcf. Very interesting info.