In praise of the .45-60

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In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

Several years ago, I received my first Winchester Model 1876 in .45-60 caliber. I developed a good load for it, using a cast 300 grain bullet, but eventually traded the old rifle for an original Winchester 1886 in .45-70. This was my second original 1886, the previous being in .45-90, which I also developed a variety of loads for and then sold. The problem with smokeless loads in the .45-90 was that it had such a large case capacity, that a fellow either needed to use a real slow powder to fill the case as best as he could, or if he uses a faster powders like IMR 4198 or IMR 3031, toilet paper filler really helps to get consistent burning. The .45-70 is a lot easier to load with smokeless powders, due to its smaller case capacity, which brings me to the big advantage of the .45-60. All three cartridge cases are virtually identical in dimensions, except for length. With the .45-60, a fellow can use powders like 5744 (my favourite for this cartridge) and IMR 4198 without any filler at all. As is so often the case when you don't know what you got until it's gone, I began to sorely miss that '76 in 45-60. This spring, I had the good fortune to acquire another original Winchester 1876 in .45-60 that is a real tack driver. I don't see myself ever being without a .45-60 from now on.

The original black powder cartridges for the .45-60 put a 300 grain bullet out the barrel at 1,271 fps, according to a copy of an 1896 Winchester catalogue. In my own experience, using 60 grains of Goex FFg under a 318 cast bullet, I got 1,307 fps. I figure that a 300 grain bullet moving at 1,300 fps is going to be good for any North American game except for the Grizzly and Polar Bear and maybe the Bison. Of course, with proper shot placement, and given that you are far enough away when you place the shot so that the bear will die before it gets to you, the .45-60 could even be used for the big bears. Given some recent results I've received for the use of 44-40 on Moose, I would expect complete side-to-side penetration with the .45-60 on Moose and Elk and anything smaller, including Black Bear. Actual field results for the .45-60 are a little scanty at this point, but over the next several years, I plan to get some. Thus far, the only thing I've killed with a .45-60 is a Woodchuck at 55 yards. It is definitely 'enough gun' for Woodchucks, not to mention the shattered rock behind it.

For those of you who just can't control yourself and are addicted to seeing how much you can beef up the ballistics, I believe the .45-60 actually has some room to work with in the modern 1876's with their advertised stronger steels. There are two forces to reckon with when developing a load that is more powerful than original BP ballistics, axial thrust against the bolt, and hoop stresses in the chamber due to pressure. The .45-60 can handle more pressure than its bigger brothers, the .45-75 and the .50-90 due to its thicker chamber walls. The same catalogue lists the .45-75 as firing a 350 grain bullet at 1,343 and the .50-95 fired a 300 grain bullet at 1,493 fps. Mike Venturino found that 70 grains of FFg in the .45-75 resulted in 1,442 fps with a 324 grain cast bullet. When you consider that the same linkage was used for these cartridges as for the .45-60, and the .45-60 has significantly thicker chamber walls, it begins to become clear that the .45-60 was not limited in power by pressure or bolt thrust, but by how much black power could be crammed into the case. That limitation disappears with the right kind of smokeless powder. What this means is that the .45-60 can be safely loaded up to equal the bolt thrust and chamber pressure of the .45-75, which of the three cartridges, probably has the highest pressure due to its bottleneck shape (the US military at the time, in their tests, found that the bottle neck shape substantially increased chamber pressure with only a small gain in velocity). So if we developed a smokeless load that delivered the same recoil as the .45-75 or the .50-95, we would still be on safe ground with the .45-60. We would also have to keep chamber pressures below those of the .45-75, which was likely to have developed even higher chamber pressures than the .50-95 for obvious reasons. If I get my calculator out and start using formulas which I won't take the time to bore you with here, my calculations suggest the following:

1. Keeping pressures less than the .45-75, one should be able to send a 300 grain bullet out of a .45-60 at 1,550 fps.

2. Keeping axial thrust equal to the .45-75, one should be able to send a 300 grain bullet out of the .45-60 at 1,567 fps

Modern Uberti-made '76's with their advertised stronger steels, should be able to handle the above loads without any problem. As a matter of interest, while developing a load for my original .45-60, using IMR 4227, I found a huge difference in velocity between powder forward (which is what I was using when developing the load) and powder back (which I used when I got to the range). The powder back position gave velocities over 200 fps higher. I fired a total of three of these over my chronograph during testing and got 1,565 fps, 1,517 fps, and 1,566 fps. There was no detectable change in headspace due to these rounds. In the powder forward position I averaged 1,291 fps. Needless to say, I will no longer use IMR 4227 in my .45-60 without filler (which solves the powder position problem). Nevertheless, any reloader who wants to 'see what the .45-60 will do', had jolly well be aware of the effect of powder position if he doesn't want to blow his fool head off.

So, before anyone runs out to load some of these steamy loads up, there are a few things you need to know. First, axial thrust is a tricky thing. At pressures that seal the case against the chamber walls, axial thrust is actually very low. If the case does not seal (evidence for which is sooty cases), axial thrust can become very high, much higher than for proper loads. What this means, is that you should not use too slow of powder. When I develop a load, I like to find a load that a) gives original BP velocities and no sooty cases, and with powders slower than Blue Dot. Why slower than Blue Dot you ask? Because powders with a burn rate in the neighbourhood of Blue Dot-2400 give pressure spikes and curves almost identical to BP. Smokeless powders faster than that will give higher pressure spikes for the same ballistics and slower powders will give lower pressures than BP, but may not give enough pressure to bump up the bullet or seal the case. So there is actually a narrow band of burn rates that I use for original BP guns. A real slow powder may give significantly lower pressures than original BP loads, but they may also provide drastically higher thrust against the bolt if the case does not seal against the chamber walls. All this to say that you had durn-tootin' better understand powder burn rates and their relationship to ballistics before you stray off of published loads and start 'loading up' the .45-60, not to mention the effect of powder position.

Am I going to try this? Short answer ..... no. If you want to put a 300 grain bullet out the barrel at 1,550 fps, then get a .45-70. I think it can be done, and done safely, but I don't trust theoretical calculations without testing to verify them, and I'm perfectly happy with original BP velocities. As I stated at the outset, a 300 grain cast bullet at 1,300 fps is good for most North American game and good enough to give complete, side-to-side penetration. Part of the reason to shoot vintage style leverguns, even if they are a modern repro, is also to shoot vintage style ballistics. I don't see the need for loads that are steamier than original Winchester loads (although for the nickel steel barrels, I'm fine with approaching original Winchester H.V. loads).

So what I'm saying is that unless a fellow is hunting some of the largest North American game, or unless he requires shots exceeding 200 yards, the .45-60 is plenty adequate for most of us on this forum. It has the added enjoyment of being a vintage, obsolete cartridge of the Old West. Perhaps its largest disadvantage is that it is usually chambered in a 10 pound Model 1876. My original 1876 rifle is 48 & 3/4" long, which some might find awkward in heavy brush. However, since I've stumbled upon the beautiful Uberti-made, 9-pound 1876 SRC with the 22" barrel, sold by Cimarron ( http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Repeat ... arbine.htm ), I think we have a very nice platform for the serious resurrection of the .45-60 cartridge. Now some of you may think that even a 9-pound rifle is too heavy to carry hunting. All I can say is, 'come-on guys, if you can't haul a 9 or 10 pound rifle around all day, you are getting soft!' (I'll make allowances for you fellows who hunt the mountains with a lot of climbing involved). I've happily hunted with my 10-pound 1876 rifle all day long, switching it from arm to arm, and loved every minute of it. Hunting is not just about how light your gun is. For me, it includes the greatly added pleasure of hunting with vintage leverguns, even if they are heavy. We are not going into a firefight boys, we're hunting! Besides, think of it as good exercise that tones the biceps.

My dies are made by Lyman, are very reasonable in price, and work just fine. New, properly headstamped Chaparral brass can be ordered from http://www.marstar.ca/ammo-etc/new-brass.shtm for $Cdn 48.95 (ship anywhere in the world), and 300 grain bullet moulds are plentiful. I know that the Cimarron 1876 SRC is going to set you back a bit, but I also know that a lot of you have several guns laying around that you hardly ever shoot. Sell a few and get yourself a .45-60 SRC. If you are like me, it is a cartridge that will grow on you and soon become one of your top favourites.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Old Savage »

Kirk, I would think with the scope it is going to be considerably heavier. :D :lol:
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

It sounds like a neat caliber for shooting and some hunting and is probably easy on the shoulder like my 43 Mauser. However, that bullet weight won't do the very long range work I personally like to do. Nice post, Kirk D.!

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

Old Savage wrote:Kirk, I would think with the scope it is going to be considerably heavier. :D :lol:
WASH YER MOUTH OUT WITH SOAP! :D
Tutt: I've shot mine out to 200 yards, but anything further than that the bullet starts dropping like a stone. It is a sub-200 yard cartridge for hunting. For target shooting, where 'sighters' are permitted, it should be good for more. I think the .45-60 really comes into its own for hunting where one is most likely to be dropping game at 150 yards or less. At those ranges, I really like the .45-60.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Buck Elliott »

Ballistically, the .45-60 doesn't turn many heads. It's the joy of lugging around a '76 and shooting the old girl that does it for me...

If I want lots of OOMPH in a light .45-caliber rifle, I can get all I need in a .45 Colt, '92. Better yet, my dear, departed .454 Casull rifle.

In .45 Colt, you can push 300-gr. cast bullets to over 1700 fps with monotonous regularity. The same bullets will go 2100 fps from the 24" .454.

Nope -- it's the love of fine, old designs that draws me to the '76 -- and the .45-60.
Last edited by Buck Elliott on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

Buck Elliott wrote:Nope -- it's the love of fine, old designs that draws me to the '76 -- and the .45-60.
Well, I think you've summed it up. Ballistically, as far as the 45 Cals, go, the 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott or the 460 Weatherby Magnum will trump both the 45 Colt and the .45-60 hands down. When I was young, it was all about ballistics, the more powerful and faster, the better. Then I began to think, 'what for?'. Now it is all about the old guns and cartridges ..... the deer seem to drop just as fast and shooting is a whole lot more enjoyable.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by rjohns94 »

another excellent post!!!! Thank you. Write ups like that would go really well with your calender pictures!!!
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

Great post, great info,... and leads me to two questions. :D You say the 45/60 is just a shorter case, HOW SHORT, if I may ask? And second, have you ever considered experimenting with the bulky low pressure powder Trail Boss?


thanks in advance!
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

76/444 wrote: You say the 45/60 is just a shorter case, HOW SHORT, if I may ask? And second, have you ever considered experimenting with the bulky low pressure powder Trail Boss?
Measuring cases for both calibers I get:

.45-60 1.88 inches
.45-70 2.09 inches

So the .45-60 is almost 1/4" shorter than the .45-70.

Regarding Trail Boss. It is bulky, but it has a very fast burn rate. To get original BP velocities with Trail Boss, the pressure spike will be obscene, if you can get enough Trail Boss in the case to give you original BP velocities. The burn rate of Trail Boss is in the neighbourhood of Bullseye. I would not use it in an original gun.

Shown below is a photo showing the relative sizes of the .45-90, the .45-70, and the .45-60

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Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Leverluver »

Thanks for that Kirk. Low pressure Trail Boss is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. One of these days somebody is going to get hurt with that stuff. That is one thing about the gene pool, it can always use a good scrubbing.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Kansas Ed »

Once again Kirk, a thoughtful and well researched post. Great information on that caliber. Now I'm wanting one, and before I had always gravitated toward the 40-60...now I'm interested in the 45..dang the finances....

Ed
76/444

Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

Thank you sir,.... much appreciated!!!

I always thought the low pressure claims for TB were do to the fact that most cases properly loaded can't hold enough for a high pressure results?


KirkD wrote:
76/444 wrote: You say the 45/60 is just a shorter case, HOW SHORT, if I may ask? And second, have you ever considered experimenting with the bulky low pressure powder Trail Boss?
Measuring cases for both calibers I get:

.45-60 1.88 inches
.45-70 2.09 inches

So the .45-60 is almost 1/4" shorter than the .45-70.

Regarding Trail Boss. It is bulky, but it has a very fast burn rate. To get original BP velocities with Trail Boss, the pressure spike will be obscene, if you can get enough Trail Boss in the case to give you original BP velocities. The burn rate of Trail Boss is in the neighbourhood of Bullseye. I would not use it in an original gun.

Shown below is a photo showing the relative sizes of the .45-90, the .45-70, and the .45-60

Image
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Buck Elliott »

There are numerous sources for loads in the .45-70 using TrailBoss powder. While it is a relatively quick powder, its intentional BULK provides a pretty good safety margin. If you can't get enough of it easily into a .45 Colt case to cause problems, I think the same applies to the .45-60 case.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

You are probably right, Buck. It seems that for some cartridges anyway, the case is filled up before you get near original BP velocities. I don't like going over 1,300 fps, but I don't like going under either.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by buckeyeshooter »

thanks for taking the time to write this out for those of us who enjoy learning from history and others.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by kimwcook »

Thanks, Kirk. Good food for thought.

I'm going to have to get off the pot and buy the '73 in 38-40 or I'm going to end up buying a '76 in 45-60. These two rifles are driving me crazy. I can only buy one and I feel like Brett Favre in that new commercial about waffling on buying a TV.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Kirk -

Excellent, well-written, and extremely informative post. Thank you very much! :D

Question for you. I'm assuming that Chaparral Arms reproductions also advertize the use of modern steels, for, after all, they are modern reproductions. Have you heard anything about the quality of the metal used by Chaparral Arms?

You mention Blue Dot and 2400 being the upper end on burn speed. What smokeless pwder do you consider the lower end (the slowest you'd use)?

I agree with you 110% - I just can't see any reason to push the .45-60 WCF - in either an original or reproduction - beyond the factory loading. The 1886 in .45-70 is all one would need to take shooting to the next level - in a gun more than adequate to handle the increased pressure.

I was in complete agreement until you suggested selling a few guns! Perish the thought!!! That's almost as bad as putting a scope on a 1876!!! :shock: :lol:

Thanks Kirk!
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

Kirk, one of the Shootists works for Hodgdon Powders and Mic McPherson has told me that he does not recommend Trail Boss in large empty cases so I think your original thought on that powder was correct. I'm surprised no one mentioned 5744 which was designed as a smokeless BP substitute and it does very well in these cases.

The problem with slow burning powders in a large case is you run the risk of detonation. I know this idea has been a controversial subject, but Mic has seen a recipe that does it every time. I forget what it is and would have to ask him again, but Mic is like Terry Murbach in that he has been a participant in many lab experiments with powder companies and the data that came out of it.

I trust him, and so does Paco Kelly. That's good enough for me.

I've shot Buck Elliot's departed 454 rifle, and his velocities sound exactly right to me. My 20" 454 Puma with its 1/10th longer action and cartridge will do 2100 fps if I push it.

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

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Ysabel Kid wrote:You mention Blue Dot and 2400 being the upper end on burn speed. What smokeless pwder do you consider the lower end (the slowest you'd use)?
The lower end (slowest powders) is reached when you start getting soot on the outside of the case and the muzzle velocity is at original BP velocities. The soot is telling you that the powder is putting the bullet out the barrel at the proper velocity, but at such a low pressure that the case walls are not sealing against the chamber walls. Since you don't want to go faster than original BP velocities, the only solution is to use a bit faster burning powder load that will give you the same BP velocity, but at a high enough pressure to seal the case against the chamber walls. For the BP cartridges that I load for, that pretty well limits the powders to between Blue Dot and IMR 4198. Of course, the cartridge will determine how slow of powder you can use. For the 45 Schofield, I found that a capacity load of IMR 4198 gave enough pressure to seal the case while giving original BP velocities. In general, I find that 5744, IMR SR4759, 2400 all seem to be in the range of powders and burn rates that will work well in BP cartridges.

Tutt, 5744 is one of my favourites for duplicating BP velocities and pressures slightly lower than BP pressures, but still high enough to seal the case. Regarding detonation and slow powders, I think if a fellow keeps the pressure high enough to seal the case, he will have to stay away from powders that are too slow. With regard to Trail Boss, the large capacity cases may have enough room in them to get enough Trail Boss in to get some bad peak pressures. I've just stayed away from Trail Boss altogether because of very fast burn rate. If you want bulk, try the slower SR4759. It has a hole down the middle of each grain, which makes it a bit bulkier than other powders that do not.
Last edited by KirkD on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 86er »

I appreciate your great, comprehensive report!
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

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Kirk, as you said, Trail Boss is a very fast burning powder. We need something just as bulky but with a slower burn rate. I've seen recipies for 50 BMG powders in even my 43 Mauser cases. Most of the powder proceeds unburned down the barrel in those that have actually tried this combination. This is also what the computer program Quickload has predicted in efficiency as measured in a percentage of powder burned (about 50%). Been there, done that with my 43 Mauser using the program. The soot you mention is a classic sign. With some powders, detonation of a slow burning powder in a case less than 90% filled is a real concern.

I'm really impressed with what you have figured out with this stuff!

-Tutt
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

CowboyTutt wrote:Kirk, one of the Shootists works for Hodgdon Powders and Mic McPherson has told me that he does not recommend Trail Boss in large empty cases so I think your original thought on that powder was correct. I'm surprised no one mentioned 5744 which was designed as a smokeless BP substitute and it does very well in these cases.

The problem with slow burning powders in a large case is you run the risk of detonation. I know this idea has been a controversial subject, but Mic has seen a recipe that does it every time. I forget what it is and would have to ask him again, but Mic is like Terry Murbach in that he has been a participant in many lab experiments with powder companies and the data that came out of it.

I trust him, and so does Paco Kelly. That's good enough for me.

I've shot Buck Elliot's departed 454 rifle, and his velocities sound exactly right to me. My 20" 454 Puma with its 1/10th longer action and cartridge will do 2100 fps if I push it.

-Tutt

I haven't hand rolled in years and reading all the great info from everyone is slowly bringing me back up to speed.

But, I have never heard or read the phrase Trail Boss "in large empty cases".

I don't understand. Does this mean a powder charge with a lot of empty case space left over?
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

That is a goofy phrase, isn't it? :lol:

I guess what I mean is that even TB can't fill some of the very large BP cases without the pressure being too high because of its fast burn rate. We could really use a powder with a similar grain structure but slower burn rate which would allow more case filling and a little more velocity too. -Tutt
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

CowboyTutt wrote:That is a goofy phrase, isn't it? :lol:

I guess what I mean is that even TB can't fill some of the very large BP cases without the pressure being too high because of its fast burn rate. We could really use a powder with a similar grain structure but slower burn rate which would allow more case filling and a little more velocity too. -Tutt

Well,.... from what I have researched, filling large cases with low pressure results is exactly what Trail Boss was developed to do. After talking with a Hogdgon tech a few months back, I came to the understanding that due to TB's bulkyness, double charges in any caliber is not possible. Which leads me to believe that "BY VOLUME" no case can be filled with Trail Boss to match any other powder's HIGH pressure loading.

Now, that is what I gleaned from my conversation with him, but, of course, as with everything, there are exceptions to every rule and RELOADING is not one of the situations I want to find the exceptions in!! :D

Bottom line, I was told Trail Boss was created for the individual loading mass amounts of cowboy loads for comp shooting. I have a budd who ranked in the top ten across the nation for mounted shooting. Being a German machinist, he created an auto reloader that knocked out thousands of rounds a day and he uses TB exclusively without a fault. Trail Boss was fluffed up to a volume that (theoretically) can not possible be double charged. Hence, the impossibility of reaching explosive pressures in any caliber "IF PROPERLY LOADED"!! And of course, phone conversations can lead to false understandings, and maybe I should make that call again and double check before making such statements. But i feel I got a good grasp of what he said or I wouldn't be posting this.

Leaving ANY SPACE BETWEEN TB POWDER AND BULLET will result in pressure problems,.... per, Hogdgon phone tech. Fillers and wads are recommended for such loadings, but I never liked them. I don't know why, I just never did.
76/444

Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

CowboyTutt wrote:That is a goofy phrase, isn't it? :lol:

I guess what I mean is that even TB can't fill some of the very large BP cases without the pressure being too high because of its fast burn rate. We could really use a powder with a similar grain structure but slower burn rate which would allow more case filling and a little more velocity too. -Tutt

I went through some of the notes I copied and pasted off the internet and thought this may be a good quote at this time. I assume by "double charge of tail boss" he is talking about a compressed load. Which I was cautioned about by Hogdgon phone tech.


"Mike Venturino reported in GUNS magazine that even with a double charge Trail Boss won’t reach proof load pressures. That may well make this the safest powder available. With most other powders, especially spherical powders, double or even triple loads will fit inside the case without spilling over. "
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

Leaving ANY SPACE BETWEEN TB POWDER AND BULLET will result in pressure problems,.... per, Hogdgon phone tech.
I think this sentence pretty much says it all. I also would not want to fill a 43 Mauser case to the base of the bullet with TB and put it into my old 71/84 Mauser with its single rear locking lug. It may not be a "proof load" but probably more pressure than the gun was designed to handle. I'm not trying to bash on the powder, its very useful for its intended purpose of filling the case and attaining reduced velocities for CAS. Its just not useful to me in what I do.

Thanks for sharing your research on this.

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76/444

Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

CowboyTutt wrote:
Leaving ANY SPACE BETWEEN TB POWDER AND BULLET will result in pressure problems,.... per, Hogdgon phone tech.
I think this sentence pretty much says it all. I also would not want to fill a 43 Mauser case to the base of the bullet with TB and put it into my old 71/84 Mauser with its single rear locking lug. It may not be a "proof load" but probably more pressure than the gun was designed to handle. I'm not trying to bash on the powder, its very useful for its intended purpose of filling the case and attaining reduced velocities for CAS. Its just not useful to me in what I do.

Thanks for sharing your research on this.

-Tutt


Pretty much says what? ALL powders have individual loading features and precautions. Trail Boss is no different.

another quote from the gun rag writer above pretty much explains the true being of Trail boss in my opinion.

Guns Magazine; 10/1/2005; Venturino, Mike

"That's because I think the new IMR Trail Boss smokeless propellant is the first truly significant improvement in smokeless handgun powders in about a century. It is that radical. Also, I will go out on a limb here and predict Trail Boss will make all other fast burning smokeless powders obsolete for use in large capacity cartridges originally designed for black powder. It will also be the best smokeless propellant for reduced loads in large capacity magnum handgun cartridges like .357, .41, and .44 Magnums."

Now, before the opinions fly, let me state that I don't believe there are more than a handfull of rag writers who do much other than sit behind a desk, so there articles should been taken with the proper skepticism, But I also believe that most rag writers don't publish anything without it being submitted to the manufacturer for fact proofing and approval.

As to my repeating the phone techs remark about spaced loads,.... here is another quote from this writer that disqualifies the spaced charge .


quote;...
"Now we get back to Trail Boss powder. It's fluffy, I said that. With great big cases such as the .44-40 and .45 Colt it will fill up 50 to 75 percent of the case capacity considering the proper weight of bullet is seated correctly. That's right. With most cases, if a double charge of Trail Boss is inadvertently dumped in, the powder will spill over. Even if two charges are put in a case and fired IMR's press releases say that pressures won't reach proof load limits."

I highly doubt Hogdgon let this statement about 50 to 75 % case loads go to publication if the phone tech was absolute in his knowledge. but who knows!!! That is why long and in depth discussions, HOPEFULLY with people who have been doing loads with Trail Boss are so important when seeking true FACTS.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Buck Elliott »

The "no space between powder & bullet" rule applies to BLACK POWDER, AND TO SOME BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES.

Using "smokeless" proplellants, it is common -- indeed NECESSARY, in many cases -- to leave "space" between the powder charge and the base of the bullet.

FWIW, I'm a firm believer in "loading density." I get best results when I can load to fill the available space to at least 95% of its capacity. That was one of the reasons I went to H-4198 for the .45 Colt cartridge, in Colt and replica revolvers, and in my '73 rifle. Slower-burning powder; longer, lower pressure curve, and superior consistency.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by 76/444 »

Buck Elliott wrote:The "no space between powder & bullet" rule applies to BLACK POWDER, AND TO SOME BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES.

Using "smokeless" proplellants, it is common -- indeed NECESSARY, in many cases -- to leave "space" between the powder charge and the base of the bullet.

FWIW, I'm a firm believer in "loading density." I get best results when I can load to fill the available space to at least 95% of its capacity. That was one of the reasons I went to H-4198 for the .45 Colt cartridge, in Colt and replica revolvers, and in my '73 rifle. Slower-burning powder; longer, lower pressure curve, and superior consistency.

In all the time I have been investigating the recommended powders for the Marlin444,... 4198 has been testified to me as the most consistent and accurate powder available,... BAR NONE!!!

I just wish there was a way to measure it by volume rather than weight,.. which is why I am trying to get some data on Trail Boss. If I could find out the paper or chronograph speed of a load of 4198 to just off the bottom of a medium cast 300 grain slug, in a 444 case, set deep enough for reliable cycling and to meet a groove for a heavy crimp,.... I would get me a keg of 4198 and be done with all this. :D
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

76/444 wrote: Guns Magazine; 10/1/2005; Venturino, Mike

"That's because I think the new IMR Trail Boss smokeless propellant is the first truly significant improvement in smokeless handgun powders in about a century.
Note that he said 'handgun'. Other key words that come up when talking about Trail Boss are 'reduced loads', 'CASS'. Larger capacity rifle cartridges are what I was talking about. I know of one fellow who tried Trail Boss in his .45-70 (can't recall what bullet weight he was using). The gun fired, but the pressure was high enough to lock up the action. Also keep in mind I am talking about original Winchester Model 1876's, where pressure spikes carry a lot more weight than guns built with modern steels. Now it may be the case that I couldn't get enough Trail Boss into a .45-60 case to reach original BP velocities. If that is the case, Trail Boss still fails in my books. I need a powder that will satisfy all (not just some) of the following conditions:
1. Fills most of the case
2. Achieves original black powder velocities
3. Peak pressure lower than original BP pressures, or equal to, for the same original velocity
4. Peak pressure high enough to seal the case against the chamber walls

There may be plenty of safe loads for Trail Boss, but assuming you can get enough of it into a .45-60 case to achieve original BP velocity, the peak pressure will be a lot higher than for BP. Think of it this way ...... two powders each are loaded to give the same muzzle velocity. One burns extremely fast, another burns at a moderate speed. The higher speed powder will give a narrower, higher pressure spike. Trail Boss may well be an excellent powder for pistol or handgun cartridges where one wants reduced loads. It is not the powder to use in antique rifles where one does not want a reduced load.

IMR 4198 is one of my favourite powders for old BP rifle cartridges, such as the .45-70. I've not tried it in my .45-60, but I really ought to. I've had some rifles, however, including my previous 1876 .45-60, that gave poor results with IMR 4198, but good results with the slightly faster 5744. The reason was that it needed a little extra pressure to obturate the bullet, and IMR 4198 would not do that for the same velocity. Nevertheless, IMR 4198 is one of my mainstay powders.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Hobie »

I think it was our own Scott Tschirhart who tried Trail Boss in Big Nose Kate (a .45-70 Shiloh Sharps) and found evidence of pressure spiking under certain conditions. He went back to black. I don't feel comfortable using Trail Boss in my 1876 repro SRC .45-75. I feel much better using SR4759 or even H4198. Do I have lab data to back this up? No. It is the feeling old reloaders get where something doesn't quite feel right. If you don't pay attention to that feeling you ALWAYS regret it.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Mike D. »

I am blissfully ignorant of pressure spikes and bolt thrust, but do know when a load doesn't "feel" right. Like Hobie, I completely trust my instincts when loading BP caliber cartridges with smokeless. I also like the way IMR 4198 works for the older type ammunition. I have not tried 5744, either, and don't much care for 3031. In my experience, it is a very dirty burning powder, leaving much residue in the bore. :)
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

I just made a phone call to my Shootist friend Jim Williamson to be sure I got my facts straight. We (Mic McPherson, Jim Williamson and myself) were considering TB for our 43 Mausers. As a side-bar, we settled on Blue Dot and a LP primer that worked extremely well with the new 485 grain bullet. This is my load and bullet for ultra long range shooting. Anyhow, we consulted with Mike Daily at Hodgedon who is another Shootist. I was introduced to Mike at the SHOTSHOW a few years back. Mike told us, "It wouldn't work". Now, we don't know WHY it wouldn't work. We didn't ask. It may have been it would not be possible to get original BP velocities without excessive pressure. I'll see if I can get a hold of him tomorrow but he travels the country a lot as part of his job. As I said, I think TB is a great powder, but its not really a smokeless powder replacement for BP like 5744 which was expressely designed to be just that.

Scott Tschirhart is also a member of the Shootists, by the way. Aweful good people, and very talented.

I would agree that IMR4198 also works good but its a little position sensitive. If I tip the barrel up every time with my 43 Mauser then slowly lower it, the loads chronograph extremely well!

-Tutt
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by win40-82 »

These 2 white tail does were taken at 100 and 110 yards with an orginal 1886 (mgf 1887) with a soft lead 350 gr gas check with 26.5gr of 5744 at 1350fps in 45-90. Bang flop, bang flop. Nothing more than that is needed.

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

Win40-82, thanks for posting that photo and the details. Your ballistics would be very close to the .45-60, just a bit heavier bullet. The load I'm using right now is a 318 grain cast GC bullet over 26 grains of 5744 which gives a velocity of 1,369 fps. That is a little faster than traditional velocities, so my next round of reloading will likely go down to 25.5 grains of 5744. Anyway, your experience shows that these old traditional cartridges and loads are plenty for Whitetail Deer. It just does my heart good to see reports like yours where game is taken with these old classics.

Tutt, I use IMR 4198 in my .45-70, but use a bit of toilet paper to remove position sensitivity and give me velocities with a low E.S. My other .45-70 is a Springfield Model 1888, but there I use IMR 3031 with cream of wheat filler. That combination yields superb accuracy and consistency.

I suppose this is as good a place as any to stick in a photo of the Model 1876 I currently own (shipped in 1886), along with a bunch of .45-60 ammo that I loaded up.

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

Win 40-82, I'm with Kirk. There is no better way to use such a fine old rifle!

Kirk, I'm sure I'll try the TP thing with 4198 someday. Right now I use my Mauser in single-shot mode so its no trouble to tip her up as I load her. Very natural action. I'm thinking its about time to use her in "repeater mode" though and it would be great to have a bit more accuracy for that and the TP thing would do it. Were going to make a Blue Dot load for the lighter 385 grain bullets soon though, and it won't really be an issue at that point.

Your '76 rifle has me droolin' big time.... :mrgreen:

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by win40-82 »

This year I plan on using my Model 1876 (mgf 1879) using the same bullet. Only have one tag this year though. Picture below is of my 76. If anybody is in need of an orginal Winchester mid range sight marked "76" the one on the rifle is available along with proper screws for $750 plus shipping and insurance.

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by w30wcf »

Kirk,
Excellent, interesting post. Regarding Trail Boss and how it compares to b.p. and 4759, this chart is very informative.
Trail Boss develops more pressure and less velocity than b.p. and 4759. Note the slower pressure rise with 4759. It would have been better if the 4759 data was taken with the heavier 500 gr. bullet but it is relative.
The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows 23/4759/1,237 f.p.s. / 15,400CUP under a heavier 464 gr. bullet.

Image
Thank you to "Duckbill" who posts on another forum for this data.

As for reaching 1,550 f.p.s. in a .45-60 at safe pressures in a '76 Winchester, RL7 may just be the powder to do it if the .45-70 data in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is correct. Under a 322 gr. cast bullet they show 47 grs. /1,687 f.p.s./13,100 CUP and 51 grs. / RL7 giving 1,813 f.p.s. at 15,800 CUP. That was their lot of RL7 back in 1980 so today the results could be different. By comparison they show 32/4198/1,480/ at a higher pressure - 17,000 CUP.

300+ f.p.s. faster for RL7 at less pressure than 4198. It seems too good to be true.

Both the 47/RL7 and 32/4198 recipies show that they used a 1/2 gr.Dacron wad over the powder. Not so with the 51/RL7.

I have found that a capacity load of RL7 in the .44-40 exceeds b.p. velocity (1,367 f.p.s.) under a 427098 bullet (215 grs.) at only 12,000-13,000 CUP according to Alliant. Accuracy is excellent!

UPDATE: Current Alliant data shows 47/RL7/2,001 for a 300 gr. jacketed bulllet in the .45-70. No pressure is given. Definitely faster burning than the lot used by Lyman almost 30 years ago.

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

John, that is an excellent post and highly informative! The more I learn about SR4759, the more impressed I am. It's got bulk, due to the hollow core, and it burns at a rate that is in the rough ballpark of BP.

Win40-82: I'm glad to see you are planning to use your '76 for deer this fall. I have been sorely tempted to use mine this fall as well, but I am writing a couple articles on the Winchester Model 53 and want to gain some actual deer hunting experience for my article, using my Model 53 in 44 WCF. Next fall, however, my 1876 is at the head of the line for Whitetail deer. If your hunt is successful, please post an update on this forum as well as on the Winchester shooting and hunting forum at http://www.winchestercollector.org/foru ... um.php?f=5
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

Somebody better call Mike Venturino! :o :P :lol:

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case filling DUPONT NO. 1 Bulk smokeless

Post by w30wcf »

Kirk,
Yes 4759 is a great powder. Too bad the early bulk smokeless powder DUPONT NO. 1 is no longer around.
It had a burning rate similar to 4198.

28 grs. was the factory load for the 400 gr. .45-70 and filled all of the case volume, thus the term "bulk".
It would be terrific if a new powder that performed the same would be introduced in the near future.

Here is a pic of the 28 gr. load of DUPONT NO. 1 Bulk smokeless in a .45-70 case.
Image

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by KirkD »

Very interesting info, John ...... and a bit frustrating. It's frustrating, because one would think that at least one powder company today would come up with a bulky, medium speed powder that would fill the old BP cartridges and have a burn rate somewhere between 2400 and IMR 4198. IMR SR4198 is a good step in the right direction, it just needs a bit more bulk.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Bill in Oregon »

An old, wonderfully informative thread on the .45-60, started by Kirk. It certainly deserves resurrection! 8)
Kirk, any additional field results to report?
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Shasta »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:10 pm An old, wonderfully informative thread on the .45-60, started by Kirk. It certainly deserves resurrection! 8)
Kirk, any additional field results to report?
This is what Leverguns is all about.
Agreed! I love to see these significant old threads brought back around. Kirk is indeed responsible for a good many of them. He got me interested in the .45-60 and I have enjoyed mine very much over the years. I shot a 29/40 AAA Class score with it at the July 2022 lever action silhouette match at Hat Creek Rifle & Pistol Club in Burney, CA.

I also enjoy reading the great comments left by those knowledgeable old lever gunners who have passed on, especially the great John Kort.

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Hobie wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:53 pm I think it was our own Scott Tschirhart who tried Trail Boss in Big Nose Kate (a .45-70 Shiloh Sharps) and found evidence of pressure spiking under certain conditions. He went back to black. I don't feel comfortable using Trail Boss in my 1876 repro SRC .45-75. I feel much better using SR4759 or even H4198. Do I have lab data to back this up? No. It is the feeling old reloaders get where something doesn't quite feel right. If you don't pay attention to that feeling you ALWAYS regret it.
I remember trying Trail Boss in Big Nose Kate. However, I don't remember why I quit it. Probably because I was getting great results with Goex black powder.

The .45-60 and the 1876 rifle have always fascinated me. Seems like this would be a very useful hunting combination. What can stand up to a 300 gr cast bullet at 1200 fps? Big Nose Kate was throwing a 520 gr Government bullet at around 1100.

I'm having fun with my Winchester 66 and moderate .45 Colt rounds these days, but I can live vicariously through you guys. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Ysabel Kid »

It was a long shot... and didn't pan out. I tried the link in Kirk's post from 2009 to see if they still had brass, and nada. So, does anyone know of a source for properly marked .45-60 WCF brass?
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by CowboyTutt »

There online ordering system is down so you will need to call to see if they actually have it. You are not going to like the price.

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/produ ... ctid=17154

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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Ysabel Kid »

CowboyTutt wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:43 pm There online ordering system is down so you will need to call to see if they actually have it. You are not going to like the price.

https://www.huntingtons.com/store/produ ... ctid=17154

-Tutt
:shock: But they have some. I haven't liked prices for almost anything for a long time. :(

Thanks Andy!
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by barbarossa »

A few years ago I was lucky enough to take this buck with my Uberti 76 carbine in 45/60
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Re: In praise of the .45-60

Post by Streetstar »

Great post - and one that makes me want an 1876 (im easily swayed when it comes to leverguns)

I forget which movie , but i thought an 1876 was featured prominently in one of the Tom Selleck westerns -- either Crossfire Trail or Monte Walsh , but its been 15 years since i have seen either of those
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