need info. on Williams (sight co.) FP-71 and SM-71

[rjroberts]

I need to know from someone who has had these in their hands or has a good diagram how many screws are used to mount them.

These are for a Winchester model 95 (Winchester, not Miroku). I have been trying to get an idea on mounting a better receiver sight such as the FP 71 peep sight or even the SM 71 which is a side-mount scope mount. Since it's an original Winchester I'm trying to avoid tapping more holes in the receiver. Right now, I have a Lyman 21 which uses the forward screw in the receiver, I believe it's called the "finger lever pin stop screw" which is original factory and another hole which is just above the hammer screw, not sure if it is factory or not. So, if the FP 71 sight uses that rear screw and possibly some surface bracing on the receiver or, if the SM 71 uses the forward screw as above with some positioning cams (similar to the mounts for an M1 Garand), I could use them. Again, I'm trying to avoid drilling more holes. I suppose my only other alternative would be a scout type scope mount in the dovetail on the barrel but I really don't like that idea.

Any ideas would be appreciated. My worst case fallback would be to stick with the Lyman in which case I need a new forward screw - the one now is chewed up (from before I got it). Winchester Bob doesn't seem to have any so I'd appreciate recommendations. I believe it's an 11 x something or other (an obsolete size).

[Pete44ru]

IIRC, the FP71 that I mounted on a Miroku M86 had the standardized two 6-48 screws/holes about 1/2" apart on the upper rear of the left receiver sidewall.

I believe the Williams SM-71 is engineered to use any factory-prep or gunsmithed peep sight holes, located as above, and the lever pin stop screw hole - but I've been wrong B 4.

.

[rjroberts]

Pete,

Thanks, but that seems to be one of the differences between mine and a Miroku. There's only one screw at the upper rear. But, you probably have answered the question regarding the FP-71: it sounds as if they are expecting two holes at the rear. My only remaining hope is the issue of the forward screw and the SM-71. Does a Miroku have one or three screws at the FORWARD part of the receiver? The small diagram on the Williams site shows three screws on the mount. They have another side mount, forgot the number, that indeed uses that forward screw and a rear one, but I don't know about he location of the expected rear one. They specify the 71 for those in which one is using an FP as well - not able to access the rear holes. However, the additional problem is that is specified for a model 94. All one needs is to be a 16th of an inch or a millimeter off and the whole thing is out the window - which seems to be the story of my life when it comes to guns, construction/repair projects on home or car, etc. Interestingly, every photo I can find in any advertisement only shows the right hand side of the 95: I guess it looks better (actually seems to) pointing to the right.

The problem results from my not wanting to drill more holes in my receiver. An additional hitch is that the existing holes are not on a line parallel to the bore - in a line with each other. If they were, it would be a simple matter to install a basic Picatinny rail, drilling any holes needed for spacing in the new rail itself. But, nothing is ever that easy.

The whole thing came about because my long range use is limited and I have been sort of condensing down my collection of stuff. I think my most useful rifle is my Marlin 1895 in .357. But, I did want something that would have the capability of going beyond 150-200 yards. The .30-06 certainly will do that as a caliber; I just need to have the sights for it. Also, making use of this would allow me to move my AR-30 along to a new home as I really won't need it if I can make the 95 work.

[Hobie]

Sir,

I have an FP-71 mounted on my Browning 1886. I have the Lyman 38 copy in hand (not yet mounted ) for my Browning 1895. In no way does the mounting hole position for these two sights coincide. Also, screw size and thread count are different for the two sights.

It seems to me that you don't really understand HOW the sights are mounted on the guns. The Williams FP and 5D sight series is usually mounted on the side of the receiver. Right or left, it uses two 6-48 screws placed about 1/2" apart horizontally (i.e. parallel to the bore center line). OJ has a Williams FP on his 95.


The climbin' Lymans use the lever pin screw forward and another screw hole must be drilled and tapped at the rear for lock lever.

A slightly clearer photo.


For those interested, the later Browning 71s and Winchester 95s and 1886s were D&T for the FP-71. None of them have been D&T for the Lyman 21 or 38 sights (or reproductions).

If you need a new forward screw for the Lyman sight you can likely order one from:

Providence Tool Company
PO Box 291
Plymouth, WI 53073

Phone/Fax: 920-893-9675
DPCD67@YAHOO.COM

They are also producing a copy of Model 21 sight and that is why they have the screws.

[Pete44ru]

You weren't very clear as to exactly what rifle you're trying to mount a peep sight on - since IMO your opening statement seemed to be about the sight and not the rifle.

If you're rifle is Winchester Model 95 (M1895) , then I don't recall any "no gunsmithing" mounts or peeps for it - as one way or another at least one/two holes will be need to be D/T'd into the receiver.

You also didn't mention the age of the rifle, which brings up another question in my mind - late "Winchester 95's" were actually made by Miroku, since Winchester hasn't actually made a Model 1895 since they original was discontinued seventy-some (?) years ago.
Some Miroku's were factory prepped on the side for a peep, while others were not.
The one I had was not prepped, so I chose to mount an XS peep sight atop the bolt (which also req'd D/T).





YMMV, of course.

.

[Hobie]

Pete,

Thanks for that. All the Winchester Miroku 1895s I had seen were D&T for the FP-71. The Brownings weren't and I suppose the early Winchesters weren't either. The carbines I've seen in the flesh were. It can get confusing, can't it?

[rjroberts]

Thanks Pete and Hobie for the helpful information. Obviously, I didn't pose my questions well.

I have a 95 from about 1924 or so with a Lyman 21. I didn't care for the Lyman and wanted to try something else. Naturally, the peep sight such as the Williams or another Lyman product come to mind. I did not know how many screws they used - now I do, thanks to the photos. A funny coincidence. I looked my eyes out over the last couple of days for a photo of the left side of the receiver. Hobie posted one this morning and by coincidence I found one on a sale listing on gunsinternational.com while looking for some other info related to the Lyman. It clearly shows the two screws on the later 95s and none for an earlier. Pete also answered the question related to the FP by telling me two screws. Of course I have only one from the d/t for the Lyman 21.

I had noticed the SM scope mount and asked about that because it would be interesting to have a scope to use, though I recognize the issues of a side mount. A single screw mount for an sm is not at all that far fetched. You'll have those on some Garands, M-14/M1A and of course the Ruger Mini-14. They all use one screw and index the mount or brace it from twisting by merely pressing against a curved surface on the receiver or on a dimple in a side plate. Bottom line is it's do-able with the right machining on the mount. Trouble is, my machining skills certainly aren't up to it and likely a commercial manufacturer wouldn't want to invest the labor.

So, I have two screw holes because it already has the Lyman and Hobie's final suggestion is already in progress: buying a forward screw from Providence; already exchanged e-mails with Tom. At least I'll have a better looking plan B (the 21). I may at some point get a cheapo aluminum rail and try to match the screw offset of the existing rear hole. But, that's down the road.

Thanks again for the help and info.