Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

Hi, again, from a 2-day-old newbie. I just got you folks to straighten me out on chamberings and cartridges for the Rossi M92 (another thread), and I thought I knew what I was doing.

BUT, looking at GunBroker for .44 Mag lever guns, I hit the following mess. Maybe someone can straighten me out, again?

Sure enough, I found what I thought I would find:
Rossi M92 Lever Action Rifle .44 Mag 20" R9255011 Price: ~ $420
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =155063165

But then I found what looks to be the same thing (for now, not worried about hex vs round barrel, blued vs stainless) going for about twice the money:
Puma Howa .44 MAG 20" Round BBL Lever Act PCH55203 Price: ~ $825
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =154643830

And, to top off my confusion, I found a rifle with parts of BOTH NAMES (admittedly in different caliber, from different seller) going for a middling price:
Howa : Product ID: 36845 : MFG# PUM68002 : Puma M92 Lever Action Rifle - 454 Casull, 20" barrel Price: ~$538
http://www.thegunsource.com/item/36845_ ... ver_C.aspx

By incidental reading, I picked up (I think) that the Rossi is made in Brazil and the Howa is made in Japan. But, then again, sometimes it appears Rossi is made in Spain.

Is it worth trying to sort this out? Maybe the various listing sellers are just naming these rifles however they want? In which case, who can know what's what? BUT, when one rifle costs twice as much as another, I want some explanation. Most importantly, what is different and is it worth the extra money?

Sorry to once again cast myself at your generous feet, seeking help! I hope there is an easy explanation....
User avatar
Warhawk
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Warhawk »

Howa and the Rossi 92's have nothing in common except the importer, LSI (Legacy Sports Inc)

This should clear up the rest for you
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 35#p303035

That $420 price at Gander Mtn must be a clearance price?

A couple of good online places to buy from:

http://www.budsgunshop.com
http://www.sportingarms.com
Last edited by Warhawk on Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16688
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Old Savage »

Question here is what do I buy? What do you want?
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
Nate Kiowa Jones
Site Sponsor
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:05 pm
Location: Lampasas, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

This comes up regular so I saved this.
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Hankster wrote:What is the major difference between the LS Puma.. and the "Braztech' Rossi's??? Is the metallurgy better??? Fit and finish??? Better barrel?? What?? One cost near twice the other...
Up until about a year ago the LSI Puma and the Braztech Rossi were the same guns, just Rossi 92's. Early last year it was announced that Taurus was acquiring Rossi and the 92's would be imported to the USA through/By Braztech. About the same time LSI announced they would no longer import the Rossi 92 but would be importing the Chiappa Armi Sport 92. Because LSI owns the Puma name the Chiappa 92's are now LSI's Puma. The Fit and finish of the Armi Sport 92 is definitely better than the Rossi but Rossi still has the edge for functionality.
I do think the Chiappa folks will eventually get their guns to work as good as the Rossi's. I have been consulting with them and suggested some changes some of which they have incorporated
.
Just to clarify, the Rossi's are made in Brazil and the Chiappa's AKA Armi Sport are made in Italy. To confuse the issue even more the Winchester 92's are made in Japan by Miroku.
The current importers for the Rossi are Braztech and you will also find the EMF imported Rossi 92's under they model as the Hartford. They are an upgraded Rossi, better sights better wood generally.

The Chiappa 92's are imported by LSI/Howa, by Taylor's and by Cimarron.

hope this helps.
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765

Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550


http://www.stevesgunz.com

Email; steve@stevesgunz.com

Tel: 512-564-1015

Image
User avatar
Ysabel Kid
Moderator
Posts: 27790
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
Location: South Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Ysabel Kid »

The "master" (NKJ) has spoken. He is our resident expert! :D Nothing to add, but, "welcome to the fire"! :D
Last edited by Ysabel Kid on Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
Hagler
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:52 am
Location: Leverland, U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Hagler »

Gentelemen, ladies, et al,

If you want to take the scenic trail (or just get a little more clarified), then take a look at the Howa/ Toyoda Loom Works/ Toyota Industries history:

http://www.howa1500.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Industries

Shawn
"That's right, Billy, I'm good with it. I hit what I shoot at, and I'm fast!"-Lucas McCain, c1882.
ImageImage
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

Thanks folks. I think I'll go with the cheaper one, to start with, which I gather are the Brazilian-made Rossis.

Thanks, NKJ! I think I kinda got the lay of the land as far as Puma, Ciappa, Howa, Legacy, Taylor's and Cimmaron. I even figured out that EMF was http://www.emf-company.com/. The EMF web site does use the Heritage name but still does not say they are replacing the Brazilian Rossis with anything else. The EMF web site does say that Taurus bought Rossi and they will no longer be selling the Brazilian-made models after the current inventory runs out. Probably just old content....
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

Warhawk,

Why did you say?
That $420 price at Gander Mtn must be a clearance price?
Both of the $420 ones on GunBroker were from "opticswarehouse" in Nanticoke, PA. Is that Gander Mtn?
User avatar
Warhawk
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Warhawk »

Bill_Rights wrote:Warhawk,

Why did you say?
That $420 price at Gander Mtn must be a clearance price?
Both of the $420 ones on GunBroker were from "opticswarehouse" in Nanticoke, PA. Is that Gander Mtn?
$400 is a very good price for these guns now. Gander Mountain isn't exactly known for being a low price leader.
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

Warhawk,

I agree about the good price. I wasn't asking about that, though.

My question was, why did you refer to Gander Mountain? I never brought them up (though I have bought there before). My OP with the $420 prices was from "opticswarehouse" in Nanticoke, PA.

Do you think Gander Mtn and "opticswarehouse" are the same outfit?
User avatar
Warhawk
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 755
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Hot Springs, Arkansas

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Warhawk »

Bill_Rights wrote:Warhawk,

I agree about the good price. I wasn't asking about that, though.

My question was, why did you refer to Gander Mountain? I never brought them up (though I have bought there before). My OP with the $420 prices was from "opticswarehouse" in Nanticoke, PA.

Do you think Gander Mtn and "opticswarehouse" are the same outfit?
I thought I read Gander Mtn someplace in there, my mistake if it's not.
User avatar
GonnePhishin
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1952
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:23 pm
Location: Bodecker's BBQ Bar & Grill

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by GonnePhishin »

Why not just purchase an American made Marlin :?: :?:
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson

"I know not what course other men may take, but as for me, Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry
ByronG
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by ByronG »

Very likely because, like many of us, he wants an affordable new made Model 92.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Moynihan
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

OK, I will consider Marlin. But somehow I got the "word" that the American makers were only making very expensive collector's-edition guns, and replica/antiques, at that. I looked at the Winchester web page for lever rifles, and it confirmed my thought exactly. Everything expensive, nothing in a "magnum" caliber (like .44 Mag or .454 Casull), only .30-30 because that's "traditional" and "authentic". And a John Wayne (or somebody) edition with engraved scroll-work, etc. I just assumed all the American manufacturers were riding high on the nostalgia wave and didn't care to exert themselves for shooters like me.

I care nothing for shooting a circa 1900 A.D. rifle. I want the functionality of a superior-technology 2010 (or at least 2000 or 1995) rifle. I want a 9-to-12 round magazine in a repeating rifle that is actually a superior weapon. I think lever-action is second only to a semi-auto for firepower, as defined to be maximum rate of aimed fire. There is actually a niche not filled by semi-autos for large-caliber, magnum, short range (25-100 yds) firepower that lever rifles fill pretty well. I know whereof I speak. I do have two .30 cal semi-auto rifles which theoretically can shoot 800 yards - heck, I can't even see that far...

Please educate me on Marlin's offerings. I don't mind paying, say, $800 for a Marlin versus $500 for a Rossi. I can't see paying $1,500 for a Marlin, though, unless the functionality is vastly superior to the $500 rifle.
Leverdude
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1518
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Norwalk CT

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Leverdude »

Marlins costs are right in line or a little less even than a Rossi. Nothing special or commemorative about them, just economical reliable guns made in America. :wink: http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/default.asp

357 & 44 magnums are regular production offerings.
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31933
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by AJMD429 »

You'd find a Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag or .45 Colt to be a handy, powerful carbine holding 10 rounds...

Or even a .357 Magnum one makes a dandy 'Night Scout' gun:

Image
Image
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=23531

Their long-action '336', 'XLR', and '1895' guns are bulkier, but a 'Guide Gun' in .45-70 is actually about the same length (maybe an inch shorter...?) as the 1894. Both the .44 Mag and .45-70 can be had in stainless, if desired, and prices aren't too bad. You'll find used ones usually very shootable and good buys.

This 'family photo' has all the Marlins once owned between nine family members, and the second from the right is a 'Guide Gun', the sixth from the right is my .44 Mag SS 1894, and the fourth from the left is my .357 Mag I had before I got the stainless one. Fifth from the left is a .35 Remington, which is the same size as their .30-30. Hope that gives you an idea of size (and of a family that likes Marlins :wink: ).

Image

Cost on Marlins isn't too bad, if you stay away from the "cowboy" ones (the octagonal barreled ones).

Disadvantages vs. Rossi 92's - maybe 98% vs. 99% feed reliability - maybe. Mine have been shot alot without problems. Rossi 92's just seem handier, to me.

Advantages vs. Rossi 92's - VERY easy to change sights on or mount scopes or other optics on. Even the dovetails on the Rossi's seem to usually require shimming, but it isn't much of a big deal. Scopes need to be in 'scout' configuration (way forward like the Holosight on my Marlin shown above) or on a 'side' mount that usually puts them a bit left of center. Williams FP's are excellent on either gun, but require drilling and tapping on the 92's (not too big a deal - maybe $30 worth of stuff if you do it yourself).

However, if you want a nice under-100-yard defense package, consider a .44 Mag or .45 Colt Rossi 92 with Marbles 'Bullseye' rear sights:

Pics of the Marbles Bullseye in this thread - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... te#p246623 - it is an EXCELLENT 'combat' sight if you don't want repeatable adjustments like you'd get with a Williams FP.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

UncleBuck, Leverdude,

OK, I looked at Marlins. Wow. Nice. I guess the few times I looked at prices new I musta been looking at upper-end models, and I know several times I followed a link to a new seller and found them out of stock. So I just assumed they were out of production or very limited production. Also, Marlin's got a lot of models, so when I saw them used or referenced by someone who'd had it a while, I just thought they were very old and no longer in production. Or something. I don't know what I thought. I just didn't do my homework. (The dog ate it!) Of course, I have always respected the Marlin name though....

Anyway, I am pretty committed to a Rossi M92 in .45LC/.454Casull, for now, for starters.

AMDJ429,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. There is no "smilie" to show me bowing in homage! But I wish there was.

Great family collection of Marlins.

And you picked right up on where I want to go with sights. I had already learned of the Marble Arms (I hate it when people call them "Marbles", but maybe that's cause I own my own business and would hate for someone to slang-i-fy the name) "bulls-eye" rear sight, either on this forum or another gun forum and had decided to go with the for my Rossi. Rapid acquisition of sight picture, which you knew.

Your link to yourself with more detail on sights I had not seen. A true magnum opus - you deserve the annual Levergun Forum MVP (Most Valuable Poster) Award!
Nate Kiowa Jones
Site Sponsor
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:05 pm
Location: Lampasas, Texas
Contact:

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Bill_Rights wrote:UncleBuck, Leverdude,

OK, I looked at Marlins. Wow. Nice. I guess the few times I looked at prices new I musta been looking at upper-end models, and I know several times I followed a link to a new seller and found them out of stock. So I just assumed they were out of production or very limited production. Also, Marlin's got a lot of models, so when I saw them used or referenced by someone who'd had it a while, I just thought they were very old and no longer in production. Or something. I don't know what I thought. I just didn't do my homework. (The dog ate it!) Of course, I have always respected the Marlin name though....

Anyway, I am pretty committed to a Rossi M92 in .45LC/.454Casull, for now, for starters.

AMDJ429,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. There is no "smilie" to show me bowing in homage! But I wish there was.

Great family collection of Marlins.

And you picked right up on where I want to go with sights. I had already learned of the Marble Arms (I hate it when people call them "Marbles", but maybe that's cause I own my own business and would hate for someone to slang-i-fy the name) "bulls-eye" rear sight, either on this forum or another gun forum and had decided to go with the for my Rossi. Rapid acquisition of sight picture, which you knew.

Your link to yourself with more detail on sights I had not seen. A true magnum opus - you deserve the annual Levergun Forum MVP (Most Valuable Poster) Award!
As you have found you won't find a marlin in 454. The Marlin action whether its a 336/95 or an 1894 won't contain the 454 pressures.
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765

Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550


http://www.stevesgunz.com

Email; steve@stevesgunz.com

Tel: 512-564-1015

Image
Bill_Rights
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:32 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA

Re: Help with understanding Rossi versus Howa + "Puma", "M92"...

Post by Bill_Rights »

Nate Kiowa Jones,

Nope, no .454 Casull in Marlin. But, for big bores, Marlin has the old .45-70 gov't (at 28,000 psi according to our very own http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm), which still makes it only an ~medium pressure cartridge, and also the .450 Marlin cartridge.

You know, I think I have a bunch of questions for Marlin owners, so rather than discuss Marlin ammo on a Rossi thread, I think I'll start (yet another) Marlin thread...
Post Reply