30-30 Premium bullet test Part 4 (Summary)

[86er]

It is interesting that each of these bullets does something outside the picture painted by their respective maker/promoter. Andy at Hawk thought the 170 gr used by Grizzly would expand quick and penetrate little to moderate with exit wounds unlikely. This was a tough test for this bullet, much tougher than an average whitetail deer - which the bullet was intended for. I think it would exit on a whitetail as much as it would stay in. In regards to the 190 gr used by Buffalo Bore their was a notion that it wouldn't expand much at all and would penetrate enormously. It did expand and penetrated more than enough to get to the vitals of any animal around here. Speer kind of down-played their bullet as an average performer for "deer sized game". It ends up that even at a modest velocity it hold together well and penetrates unbelievably. In fact, this I will now only take shoulder shots on deer with this bullet because I just can't figure how it would get any expansion with a behind the leg shot in all soft tissue. Hornady never came out and said where/what class of animals there bullet was for. However, in their advertising, internet and in magazine article and TV shows they sponsor the LE 30-30 has been used on bears, big mule deer and elk. Frankly, the amount of penetration I've seen in actual hunting use and in this test and other bullet performance factors set the setting for a good deer bullet that would get the job done on shoulder shots. I personally would not have confidence to use it on an elk or moose at any range and the bears would have to be smallish and close for me to have faith.

If you reload Speer Hot Core FP 170 gr's at around 2100 fps I think you'd be able to win a confrontation with a grizzly and you should have confidence on a fairly large animal at close range.

If you knew you'd be in bear country and wanted some extra insurance when moving around hiking, horseback riding or four-wheeling the Buffalo Bore do have an edge. If you take a head shot or double shoulder shot at close range it looks like you will get expansion and penetration. The expansion was a little more than the Speer and the wound channels damaged more area than the Speer overall. The 2 inches less penetration with the Buffalo Bore compared to the Speer is probably less of a contributing factor to quick incapacitation than the effect of the larger wound channel the Buffalo Bore makes. At over $59.76 per box of 20 it is cheap insurance if you have a real potential to need every edge you can get. I'd determine the point of impact with a 5 shto group and hang on to the remaining 15 for loading up in bear country or to use on a moose or elk at close range. NOTE - They grouped into the same spot as Hornady LE ammo from our rifle - and they were less than 3" from the sight-in ammo of Speer and Grizzly.

If you prefer a behind the leg double lung shot on deer and can shoot them accurately to 175 yds the Grizzly Cartridge load would benefit you. The penetration and expansion resulted in a wound channel that would literally shred both lungs on a medium sized deer and very likely put it down on the spot. If you did hit a bone I believe you'd still have enough penetration to take both lungs even if the bullet doesn't exit.
For $52.95 a box of 20 I'd use them if you were taking your 30-30 on an outfitted deer hunt where you could take a good trophy for some fee. If it is accurate enough in your rifle, it could mean the differenc between getting your buck in the truck now and waiting until morning to look for him.

The Speer bullets are $26.99 per 100. Unfortunately they are not going to make this one anymore - switching to their "Deep Curl" 170 gr bullet. You can load a box of ammo with new brass for $16.46. If you already have brass it could be as little as $8.76 for 20. This load will do on medium bears and elk at close range. It is a little hard for soft tissue shots on deer. I'd use them on deer at 100 yds or so with a center of shoulder hold and expect an exit wound, and hopefully an obvious blood trail. I have mixed feelings about these on deer because they are pretty tough. They would be ideal for hogs, especially bigger ones of 200 lbs or more.

Hornady LE ammo continues to underwhelm me. In this study it's not the best in penetration, expansion, accuracy, wound channel or price. The price is very reasonable though at $23.95 per box of 20. It can't hurt to try it and some folks get great accuracy. If your gun shoots it tight and you are hunting deer, or antelope or coyotes, any critter 200 pounds for less it is a viable option that should be explored.

If you want to know what I think is the best for whitetail deer, I'll go with the Winchester Silver Tip Supreme 150 grain (the black bullet with the white plastic tip). This bullet penetrates, expands and caused a lot of damage while being very accurate in factory cartridges and reloads. It can handle a shoulder shot but excels at lung shots. For black bears I would use the 170 grain Rem Core-Lokt or Nosler Partition based on their track record in my extensive client data.

[Old Savage]

Great report and it looks like you went to a lot of effort to do all this.

[Hobie]

I've had the Speer penetrate ham to opposite shoulder, striking bone at both ends, with complete penetration on 130 lb (est live weight) deer.

[Tycer]

Perhaps these four posts could be consolidated to one sticky or Leverguns.com article.

[Mike Rintoul]

This is a good thorough test and I appreciate being part of it. The results are now facts and cannot be changed. Let me briefly say why we bothered with a 30-30 loading, after all it has been working for over 100 years as is. Some handloaders cannot get enough velocity from short barrelled rifles to get the utmost performance from bullets available for loading, or from factory loaded ammo from the big companies. We were able to increase the velocity with proprietary powders without increasing pressure. In order to get consistent bullet performance we turned to Hawk with our design. Our loading has always been recommended for game up to 250 pounds. In our testing and field reports, the bullets will stay together and penetrate more when the range is 100-150 yards and still penetrate adequately for use on game up to 250 pounds. The point of impact should be within three inches at 100 yards of a standard velocity 170 grain load, so the shooter needs to reference this but not necessarily move the sights. If you are comfortable shooting out to 200 yards this ammo flattens the trajectory some with the faster velocity. Two of my pro-staff guys use this load exclusively in their duties. Jorge Tamayo is a Game Warden who frequently shoots injured animals that cannot be cured for humane sake. During the winter he probably shoots at least one deer a week for several months. Sometimes this is done from a vehicle so the animal does not spook and try to run away, so he stays back as far as necessary to avoid spooking but remain safe. A plus is that if the bullet exits and hits the ground (like the side of the roadway) the bullet will flatten out and have minimal ricochet. Jorge reports excellent terminal performance and he uses this round for his personal deer hunting as well. Mike C. is a p/t hunting guide and occassionally makes a TV appearance on some popular shows. He uses a peep sighted levergun in 30-30 as a work tool. The way he employs his rifle with this cartridge he reports deer, hogs, small game and at least one turkey that I know of very often go down in a short distance. He primarily shoots less than 100 yards and likes to shoot behind the leg for the largest target area. My hat is off to the other bullet/ammo makers! It is obvious that everyone is doing their homework to bring quality products to the market and offer the shooter ammo that can be chosen for specific applications.

[Hobie]

Perhaps these four posts could be consolidated to one sticky or Leverguns.com article.

I have permission to publish on my blog. Due to the length and format, it will be in two parts on 5 and 6 September. I don't see why we can't publish it elsewhere.

[piller]

It still sounds like a .30-30 is still a good choice for deer sized game. I will try to find some of the Speer bullets before they are gone.

[2ndovc]

Good stuff Joe!!


jb

[madman4570]

No words can express what you give to us on this site!
Thanks!

[J Miller]

Joe,

I enjoyed these four posts immensely. They were very educational.

I'm gonna copy and paste them into a Word file for future reference.

Joe

[slimster]

Joe, thank you so much for your efforts. It's seems like the Speer was a real performer. Now if only Mike Rintoul would start loading the Speer up to 2300 fps in a factory load, that would be something!

[Mac in Mo]

Thanks for the time and expense you put into this. It is a very informative posting. Kevin

[Old Savage]

OK Joe, this seems to say that the 30-30 is adequate to stop a grizzly charge. Are you comfortable with that? What would you rather have in the same carry league

[FWiedner]

Joe, thanks for all your hard work. A big thumbs up to Ricky and whomever else you enlisted for their worthy assist.

This is valuable information. Performace data backed up by real world facts.

[Marlin32]

That is all interesting information. Except I am more confused on what bullet I would use.
I am more of a behind the leg shot person. Rarely do I take a shoulder shot unless that is all I have.

So I am guessing the speer may not be the round for that kind of shot. Maybe the Grizzly from Mike is the bullet for me in the soft tissue shots??

The biggest thing for me that came out of this is, reinforces my reluctance to use Hornady bullets. I have the new 338 Marlin but am banking on someone coming up with some good bullets for elk and moose before next fall!!!!


Maybe I should be giving Mike R or Hawks or both a call??

[86er]

Whoa there O.S.! This certainly does NOT say the 30-30 will/can stop a grizzly charge with any of these cartridges. What is says is that if you had a 30-30 and happend to have loaded Buffalo Bores's 190 gr (or maybe reloaded the Speer) you could penetrate the head or get well into the vitals. I would absolutely not rely on these cartridges to stop anything. I've had clients that just cannot stay off the trigger when something big is coming at us and gets within 20 yards. Personally, I'd stop a charge the way I do on hippo and buffalo - with a head shot, solids, a big double rifle, and at 10 ... maybe 15 FEET. Taking that into consideration, I then have to ask "Why are you in grizzly country with a 30-30 in the first place"? If that's your one and only rifle or the biggest bore you have then - okay, load something that puts the odds in your favor. But why not a 348, 338 Marlin Express, 444, 45-70 or whatever that comes in almost the same package? I wasn't turned on to any of these cartridges as a bear hunting round. Under ideal circumstances I'd shoot an elk, moose or such with the Speer load of the Buffalo Bore ammo - BUT I don't think I'd take a shot with one of them that I'd pass on if I was loaded with regular Rem Core-Lokt factory ammo. I would just have a little more confidence to get an exit wound or break bone. However, I wouldn't rely on the bullet to make up for an iffy shot presentation. Let's say the 190 grain didn't expand for some reason (like the maker thought it wouldn't). That would be close to shooting the animal with a 303 British using 193 grain FMJ ammo (same weight, velocity and close diameter). Given any reasonable options, who'd ethically choose that for their elk, moose, bear round? So you definitely have to factor in the "what -if's" when making an ammo choice. So putting odds in our favor really then relies on a lot of faith that it will work out. A pencil sized hole through the brain will stop something (190 gr doesn't expand) but a bullet that deflects off the skull or penetrate only an inch or two through bone might not (over - stressed 160 gr for instance). Now if that same 190 expands too, it will still very likely stop whatever is hit. So whether the 190 performs as you want it or not the result is still more consistent than a different bullet that at best will stop something 50% of the time. Take away the head shot and say the bullet hits under the chin. The spine is several inches behind thick muscle. If it is not hit, the more damage to the circulatory system the faster the "stop". In this case the 190 might not expand and make a pencil hole. It will take too long if you're behind the rifle for the effect to kick in on the animal. On the other hand, the other bullets may make it to the circulatory system and make a huge wound with quick effect. Or it might not make it to the vital area at all. So you see if we're trying to make the 30-30 a defensive cartridge to stop animals we are going on a wing and a prayer. Your Hyundai can make laps around the track and might go 600 laps. But are you going to win the race with it? Now if you soup up your Hyundai, it could probably make the speed necessary to keep up with other cars for the 600 laps. But do you think you can win the race with it? I think it is fair to say that in an application where a standard load 30-30 would be "inadequate" the Buffalo Bore and Speer loading can make it "minimal" or "marginal". All I proved for certain is that the Buffalo Bore load and the Speer load are pretty good for killing cows at 25 yards if you head shoot them.

[86er]

Off topic reply to Marlin32 - Remington is making ammo for the Marlin Express cartridges now (since the parent company owns Marlin) and the bullet are performing pretty good!

[Old Savage]

Joe, just a note here. I have heard on this board unbridled romantic enthusiasm for the 30-30 and wanted to hear what you really thought lest anyone misinterpret. I think there are appropriate levels of power for almost anything and don't think there is any real magic to any of it unless it is professional knowledge and execution and I always appreciate your point of view - thanks again.

[tman]

Thank you sir for your excellent work. i agree with your conclusion. If all i had was my trapper in bear country, it's good to know that the 190 gives you a better fighting chance. If i'm up in the big woods, i'm carring a .348, .356. 45-70 for grizz.

[Marlin32]

For 86'r, I have seen the Remington ammo for sale. I have not seen it in stores around here, but could easily order it. I like the bigger bullet, but seems slow to me.

How do I go about testing that round here in "backyard" Is there something fairly easy to test with that will give me some measure of bullet performance??

(would have trouble convincing wife that I need to test some ammo by running down to your place and "testing" on Red deer etc. She still isn't thrilled with the giant Red Stag coming out of my wall in the living room now)

[336A]

Marlin32 I wouldn't sell the Remington offering short just because it is moving slower in comparison to the 200gr Hornady ammo. The performance is right there with the old .348 Win 250gr loading which earned quite a reputation for itself on big animals. That big 250gr .338 caliber bullet has a whopping SD .313, for shots inside 200yd on animals like elk moose etc... that loading will surely leave an impression on em' for sure then keep on trucking.

[Nath]

Good work Joe.

All the speer bullets have allways amazed me, whether shot through deer, in deer or in to the ground and stone. Recovered bullets allways look pretty much how they should.

The only time I had one come apart was a red stag shot from the front through the neck at 12ish yds. All the bullet fragments were under the thick neck hide after passing through the vertribre. It was a 150grn and the stag was around 300#. Marlin 336.

Nath.

[Ben_Rumson]

Thank you for all of your work on this project and other projects you have posted for us..

[336A]

86er Do you have any first hand experience with the Fed 170gr fusion? If so what is your opinion of it compared to other 170gr bullets? Is it as hard as the speer in between or really soft?

[86er]

The Fusion bullet is specifically designed for whitetail deer. It is softer than the Speer but still holds together well with 60% or so weight retention. I got around 12" penetration with it.

[336A]

Thanks 86er that is what I thought. I guess if I ever feel the need for real deep penetration I'll stick with the Nosler 170gr Partition. I believe that there is a member here that posts sometimes by the name of T.R. He wrote of his success using the .30-30 on a 400# Red Stag using Win 170gr PP ammo. From the pic of the recovered bullet it appeared to have performed in tha same manner as the Speer bullet you tried. So I guess that would be a cheaper alternative.

At the same time however I don't plan on shooting anything larger than a black bear, and they don't go much more than 250LBS up here.