Which aperture sight for my 92?

[bluesman423]

I want to install an aperture sight on my EMF Hartford 45 Colt with 24" octagon barrel and have a few questions. This rifle is carried for hunting and also used for plinking.

First of all, I laid the Lyman receiver sight from my 16" Rossi 357 on the Hartford rifle and it just does not look right.

I am also considering a tang sight, which looks great but looks like it would be uncomfortable to carry.

Any other options for an aperture sight on this rifle?

What are your opinions considering my reservations for each type of sight?

Thanks!

[Pete44ru]

FWIW, I've found that it doesn't do much good, to comment on another's reservations about their guns or "significant others".

This is a Skinner LoPro, installed in a Model 92 bolt top safety.

It can just as easily be installed atop the bolt of a non-bolt safety Model 92 via D/T a single hole.



Fellow board member & levergunsmith, Nate "Kiowa" Jones, also makes/sells a similar drop-in: http://www.stevesgunz.com

.

[J Miller]

Looks are not as important to me as is function and durability. I'd put either a Lyman 66 series or a Williams FP 94/36 on it along with a post or sourdough front sight and never give it a second thought.

Tang sights are too fragile, too close to my eye, and they interfere with my grip.
Sights like that Skinner above have very little elevation adjustment and no windage adjustments either.

The side mount sights all but put the tang sights out of business when they were introduced because they were / are so much better.

JMHO from my 40+ years of shooting lever guns.

Joe

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I want to install an aperture sight on my EMF Hartford 45 Colt with 24" octagon barrel and have a few questions. This rifle is carried for hunting and also used for plinking.

First of all, I laid the Lyman receiver sight from my 16" Rossi 357 on the Hartford rifle and it just does not look right.

I am also considering a tang sight, which looks great but looks like it would be uncomfortable to carry.

Any other options for an aperture sight on this rifle?

What are your opinions considering my reservations for each type of sight?

Thanks!

For the 24" guns I kinda prefer the tang sights. But, I also like to use it with a globe front.



You are correct it isn't the most comfortable to shoot/hold. The tang sight does tend to interfer with your thumb placement.

This is my Bolt mounted peep That Pete referred to.


It makes an econimical replacement for the goofy safety and makes for a cleaner installation if you are willing to adjust windage with the front.

[bluesman423]

Two questions regarding the bolt mounted peep sight.

I realize the bolt's movement within the receiver is minimal but it does move. Laterally and vertically if viewed from the rear. How much, if any, affect does this movement have on practical accuracy?

How does the bolt mounted sight compare with a Lyman 66 if it gets banged around? I use my rifles pretty hard, some might say they get abused at times.

[Pete44ru]

Unless a bolt is sloppy enough to be inoperable, or fall out of the receiver, it's movement will have zero efect upon accuracy.

My LoPro mounted in a hole I D/T'd in the center of the bolt's lawyer safety hole plug, so it was inline with the bore C/L, requiring less than 1/16" front sight windage adjustment, and had so many elevation threads, that I had to shorten the stem to allow a low mount.

The rifle zeroed within 5 shots, and has held zero for the last year. since I installed the peep.

FWIW, ANY rifle or commercial peep sight can be damaged, especially with enough abuse.

Anyone, desireous of an indestructible sight, should simply weld a steel automotive hexagonical nut to the bolt top, to act as a peep.

.

[Griff]

I'm a firm believer in the tradition of a tang peep on lever action rifles. Unless one crawls up the stock, it shouldn't be so close to the eye as to endanger one, especially with pistol caliber rounds. 2ndly, one SHOULD wear some type of safety eye wear when shooting, if for nothing else, in case of escaping gases from a failed case. Depending on your hand size, it also shouldn't really interfere with your grip. It might be a little while to become accustomed to the feel of it, but a lightly held grip around the wrist of the gun is best for trigger control anyway... why squeeze the snot out of it, you just might be squeezing the trigger too hard at a time you don't intend to! (Hey, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!)

Also, I don't carry a levergun around the wrist; afield, I carry mine cradled under the receiver, unless at the CAS or public range, where they require the muzzle be UP. Then it's gripped at the forend or carried at the "shoulder arms" position.

And Nate is right also as to the advisability of a globe front sight to go along with the tang sight. The tang sight also adds an inch or so to your sight radius beyond even a receiver or bolt mounted sight. That can be beneficial for "fineness of aim"! A good thing!

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Two questions regarding the bolt mounted peep sight.

I realize the bolt's movement within the receiver is minimal but it does move. Laterally and vertically if viewed from the rear. How much, if any, affect does this movement have on practical accuracy?

How does the bolt mounted sight compare with a Lyman 66 if it gets banged around? I use my rifles pretty hard, some might say they get abused at times.

What you might loose with the slack in the bolt you more than make up for with the additional sight radius. I think the Lyman is probably a bit more durable but it is made from aluminum and un-supported on the right side so I can see how it could be easily bent if handle rough. To install in on the Rossi 92 you will need to disassemble the gun then drill and tap for two screws to mount it.
My bolt peep does have a #8 size stem and so far no one has reported problems with it breaking. It is an easy install. You don't even have to take the bolt out of the gun. Just open the bolt enough to get to the pin that retains the stock safety. Drift the pin out from the left side. Take the stock safety parts out and install the sight base so that the indention lines up with the pin hole. Drift the pin back in from the right.

[AJMD429]

< tonsofpeeps >
Depends on the USE you intend for your gun:

For instance, on a 24" octagonal "traditional" levergun, I'd go with the Taurus Tang sight (a Marbles clone that for $29 seems every bit as durable and accurate), and a Lyman 'globe' front sight with various inserts. I agree with Joe Miller above though - for other than 'traditional' guns or target-range use, Tang sights are just too fragile for my taste.

On a 16" shorty "saloonkeeper" or "hog-hunting" levergun, I'd go with the Marble's "Bullseye" sight mounted in the rear barrel dovetail - nothing I've ever used has better speed and field of view, and they are VERY rugged, and yet allow precision approaching that of the other aperture sights. They're a pain in the butt to 'sight in' due to the 'drift and slide' design (like the factory rear sights are). I'd probably use a fiberoptic front sight like the Williams 'Firesight' front sight, although I replace the orange fiberoptic with yellow or green, because for me it is easier to see during hunting conditions.

On a 20" 'practical' gun I'd likely use for deer hunting, I'd go with the more-easily-adjusted Williams FP, 'ghost-ringed' by removing the aperture, once I bench-sighted it in with the aperture. For the Williams FP, I keep the Marlin factory gold-bead front, but on the Rossi's I prefer the Williams Firesight to their 'post' front sight. YMMV.

Here's some pics of aperture sights I've used.

Keep in mind that with ANY of the setups you could use whatever front bead/post/firesight you like. Also - when you look at the pics, you see right away that some of the sights "aren't lined up" for the picture (due to my ham-handed photography skills) - anyway, the 'lining up' is so intuitive that the instant you see the picture, you want to center it. That's why peep sights are so darned fast...!

These are only sights I've personally used; there are lots of other good sights out there, but I thought maybe some of these pics would give you an idea at least what these sights are like, if you've not seen them before.

First - the Barrel-Mounted Apertures:

I find the Marbles "Bullseye" sight to offer one of the best 'views' of sights I've used - better precision than an 'open' sight, and you don't have the entire lower half of your field of view blocked out like on open sights (and most 'peeps'). Windage is only drift-adjustable, but makes a great hunting sight. Anyhow - no gunsmithing needed, simply replaces your factory sight in the barrel dovetail; not the 'best' sight in all situations, but WAY better than the factory sight. In addition to the conventional elevation-adjustable model, a more compact fixed model is available (might be a great 'ghost ring' for a shotgun or hog gun if you wanted to swap front sights to get proper elevation). Note that some (?all) Puma's have wider-than-standard dovetails, and a bit of shimming is needed when swapping sights; I just slip a bit of thin metal or plastic under the sight before driving it into position. Notice how much of the field of view a 'conventional' open sight blocks - I did not change the front sight out, so the rear would block as high as drawn, and was the same width as the outer aperture of the Marbles.





Here's a Ruger Ranch Rifle Rear Sight - another 'barrel mounted' sighting option; not 'fast' to pick up like the Marbles Bullseye, but very precise. People say an 'aperture' sight has to be close to the eye, but that's not true - it can be close to the eye (unlike an 'open' sight); an aperture sight can be on the barrel just like an open sight. You have to pay even less attention to the rear sight focus-wise, if it is an aperture, vs. open.

Since they FOLD DOWN out of the way if desired, I use them as backup sights for 'see through' rings and 'quick release' scope mounts...Anyway, here's the pics.




$14.29 from MidwayUsa - Ruger Rear Sight Assembly Complete Mini-14 Ranch Only, Mini-30, Deerfield Carbine 99/44 (Link below)
Product #: 186476 | Manufacturer #: MS25501

Next - the Receiver-Mounted Apertures:

Mine (so far) are all Williams. Here's the Williams WGRS, and Williams FP-336, and FP-94/36



The WGRS fits the Marlins easily, and variations are available for many other rifles.
The FP-336 mounts on the Marlins (all of them) using the top-mount scope holes.
The FP-94/36 mounts on side-tapped Marlins, and on Winchester/Rossi 92's, 94's, etc.

All the Williams FP's can be had with "Target Knobs" and/or "Silhouette Apertures":



I like to use the 'Target' elevation knob, but keep the regular screwdriver-adjustable windage one.

The Williams FP sight is easier to adjust, but blocks out more view (of course you can shoot with both eyes open, which does help). The aperture is removed here for a 'ghost ring' effect - I only use the apertures to sight in off the bench.




The Williams WGRS sight is adjustable but not as easy as the FP, and blocks out less view (of course you can shoot with both eyes open, which does help). The aperture is removed here for a 'ghost ring' effect - I only use the apertures to sight in off the bench.




Here's another Williams FP on a Mauser rebuild with the triangular front sight left in place.




Now - the Tang-Mounted Apertures:

The rear sight is the Taurus #62 Tang. Unlike the Lyman ones, it has windage adjustment, and unlike the Marble's ones, it only cost $29. The sight is VERY solid, and adjustments seem quite positive and repeatable.

The front is the Lyman #17 Globe. I got the 0.404" one. I guess Pumas have 'European' width dovetails, (anyway, they're wider), so I had to use some plastic under the front sight for now; I'll replace it with a metal shim if it shifts, or solder it in place, perhaps.



As a 'target sight', the view seems pretty good (hard to take good pictures of sight views).



For the sake of completeness, here's some pics of others I don't own but others seem to like:

Skinner sights: - http://www.skinnersights.com/





XS sight systems: - http://www.xssights.com/store/rifle.html




Added January 2010: from htt[url]p://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22047[/url]

Leverguns' Nate Kiowa Jones Sights http://www.stevesgunz.com REPLACE THE SILLY ROSSI 92 "SAFETY" button with a sight!
NOTE - the sight pivots so the safety still works, which is WAY cool...!




He also makes this one to replace the Rossi 'safety' that is a modified 'Skinner' elevation-adjustable sight:



On the other hand, for my "ultimate go-to guns", I prefer the Burris Fastfire-II holosights, backed up with a LaserMax, and Coast 'LED-Lenser' for night-time-varmints-in-the-goat-pen...

Marlin .357 Magnum version:


Rossi .45 Colt version:


Some folks say it "looks stupid" to put a holograph sight on a levergun, and that it is blasphemous to put a laser on one, much less a 'flashlight', but when it's time to go close-up the livestock for the night, and the coyotes are howling, I'm NOT going to take a pistol and flashlight, and I sure wouldn't want to touch one off from my Guide Gun or AR-15 in the middle of the night, even IF they had a decent light on them, unless I had on hearing protectors. On the other hand, the light weight and quiet little 'pistol-caliber-lever-guns' are just the ticket.

Here's a three-shot, 50-yard group shot - at midnight - with the Marlin:



Try THAT with a regular sight or scope . . . chicken-eating possums and goat-eating coyotes beware...!

[firefuzz]

How about one of these (half way down the page). One's going on my Uberti/Beretta Lightning for sure.

http://www.providencetoolcompanyllc.com ... vices.html

On a 24" gun I think they'd be especially cool.



Rob

[CaptainFinn]

I just broke my Marble's tang sight on my 24" Rossi, wish I'd known about that neat Taurus copy.

There's also Providence Tool Co's copy of the old Lyman #21 receiver sight ....

[southfork]

That Pattern 21 sight by providence Tool Co. looks spot on for a '95 Winchester. Does anybody know if NEW holes need to be drilled and tapped on a '95 Winchester's receiver? If D & T isn't necessary, I'm for sure going to order one of those for my '95!

[COSteve]

Deleted

[AJMD429]

Lyman Globe with much finer Shaver aperture insert:

If you ever get a chance to take a picture through the sight, I'd like to see what it looks like.

The Lyman 'post' one I'm using I like, but that Shaver one does look nice...

[mikld]

With a receiver sight you will prolly have to install a higher front sight. I have a Williams receiver sight on my Puma and with the rear sight all the way down, my shots are about 4" low at 25-30 yds.

[AJMD429]

With a receiver sight you will prolly have to install a higher front sight. I have a Williams receiver sight on my Puma and with the rear sight all the way down, my shots are about 4" low at 25-30 yds.

You're right - I think I've had to get a taller front sight on at least half of the Rossi's I've put the Williams FP's on. No matter though, as I prefer a 'bead' or fiberoptic front vs. their square posts anyway. The Lyman Globe fronts of course are pretty high anyway.