30-30 Ackley Improved

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:57 pm

your thoughts on the 30-30AI? I know that the brass is formed by fire forming 30-30, takes a .308 diameter bullet, pushed 2-300 fps faster than 30-30. Its a reloaders cartridge I know also. But having said that, your thoughts? Thanks

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:12 pm

A DANDY CARTRIDGE !!! IT SOLVES ANY AND ALL OF THE 30-30 CASE SHAPE PROBLEMS AND YOU CAN INDEED PUSH UP THE RPM'S A BIT TO BOOT. I THINK THAT A 300fps GAIN IS MOSTLY A PIPEDREAM BUT THAT AGAIN COULD DEPEND ENTIRELY ON THE PARTICULAR 30-30 RIFLE/CARBINE INVOLVED. AND IT LOOKS BETTER THAN ANN-MARGRET'S FANNY...

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:16 pm

thanks Terry. I think I found a lever I'm in love with and its 30-30AI. May just be the ticket. thanks again.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:00 pm

You'll want to stock up on RL15 powder for that. Start with the max charge for the bullet you choose and work up about 2 grs.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:08 pm

I've always been interested in a 30-30 AI. If you get it, let me know what you think. I don't know enough about the cartridge to pull the trigger on one (no pun intended).

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:18 pm

Grab it. Its something a little different and if the gun strikes your fancy(Its a winner)
Kinda like the plain old 1984 Chevy Monte Carlo (LS) I had then I had the dealer install a factory new HO 350 engine in it.
Its just a kick in the pants you need every now and then!
Want to see pics if you get it!

CEMENTHEAD · Post by **CEMENTHEAD** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:28 am

Cool beans! I've looked at a few as well, never pulled the trigger so to speak. Looks like a fun project!

Doesn't the 30-30AI reamer just clean up the chamber? Can you still fire regular factory ammo through it? Can it be reamed without removing the barrel?

LOL.....I'm full of questions today

Thanks, Tom

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:33 am

The .30-30 AI is a neat cartridge. A 100 fps gain is a lead-pipe cinch; with a long barrel, you can get 150, and might push 200 fps; 300 fps is, as Terry says, a pipe-dream from the days before inexpensive chonographs. Ol' P.O. knew his stuff, but he was often a bit optimistic in his velocity estimates...

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:21 pm

I've seen two rifles that gained 155 fps and 170 fps respectively compared to the same exact bullets loaded in standard 30-30 format at factory velocity. My role was to test various bullets in the AI handloads. What I found was that some of the bullets were not up to the additional velocity while others were well suited. I cannot find my notes, but I remember the 170gr Nosler Partion and 170 gr Speer FP actually improved in terminal performance in the AI. The 150 gr Winchester component bullet lost penetration and separated from the jacket. The 170 gr Hawk (I do not know the jacket thickness) also lost terminal performance at the higher AI velocity. Tests were done on deer carcasses at 50 and 100 yards. I hope that helps your decisions some.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:13 pm

CEMENTHEAD wrote:Doesn't the 30-30AI reamer just clean up the chamber? Can you still fire regular factory ammo through it? Can it be reamed without removing the barrel?

I don't know about cleaning up the chamber, but the angle of the shoulder is changed. I want to say it's a 40* shoulder but am not close to my books at the moment.

Yes, regular .30-30 can be fired. You end up with a fire formed AI case so it's a no-lose situation.

IIRC OSOK fabbed up an extension to cut an AI chamber so he didn't have to remove the barrel. I think it involved a 12" or 16" extension for a ratchet.

Jeff H · Post by **Jeff H** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:10 pm

Sam Fadala was quite fond of the 30-30AI and wrote about it on a couple occasions.
Once was in a book called something like "The Complete Rifleman" or "Rifleman's Bible."
He did a nice write-up on it but I have given about a ton of books away and that one was in the pile.

His books seems to all be out of print but are cheap on the used market. It was an article worth reading if your'e a fan of the cartridge.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:22 pm

The one Fadala book that counts here has come down in price along with the economy (has have many such books). Where it was $100 and up it is now about $50 and up... Winchester's 30-30, Model 94 I think it is worth EVERY dollar. He goes into great detail on the .30-30 AI.

Over on the Shooter's Forum there is an extensive discussion of the cartridge. Their search function works a bit better than ours as well. Our own Slim Iorg and Don McDowell are much experienced with the cartridge.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:31 pm

The AI reamer does a good bit more than "clean up" the chamber, it makes the chamber for a cartridge that has little to no body taper, a 40 * shoulder and a short neck. Think more in terms of a rimmed 300 savage.
With the right powders 250 fps increase is quite easy to do with 150's and 170's, and 150's can be pushed very close to 2600 fps, but you have to as Paco put it so well so many years ago "think outside the box".
You're not dealing with the 30-30 cartridge once you ai the chamber except for the headstamp on the brass.
It's a good cartridge and it's to bad it wasn't standardized instead of the silliness of the 307 and now the 308 me.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:22 pm

Thanks for the picture Don. That is a good looking cartridge, not sure how it compares to ANN-MARGRET'S FANNY, tho... I suspect the 30-30 AI may stand the test of time a little better.

My Winchester 94 Classic just may be a candidate for a rechamber, especially if I do not have to remove the barrel.

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:08 pm

I have been kicking around several wild cat possibilities of late. Haven't settled on one or any at the moment, but my concern for some of my ideas is what 86'er brought up.

One of my thoughts is 32AI, but with limited bullets in 32 special, if I did increase velocity, would the bullet hold up? If not, I have gained zip. But not sure how to test for that except do it, and see.

If there was a NP in 32 special, then I might be a little bit further along in my "wildcat" brain.

I even thought of necking up .307 to 32, but if I do, same deal. Unless I go to .323 diameter, more bullets, but most are longer bullets and may need to be seated deeper, reducing powder, blah, blah, blah.

In other words, I don't think the 30/30AI is necessarily a bad deal, depending on why you want it or what situation you want it for. Bullet integrity would by my concern.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:12 pm

For our fellow members on the other side of the pond, I'm pretty sure Terry meant Ann Margaret's bum. We wouldn't want to be relegated to an X rated site in England

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:27 pm

there are many references to cast bullets, and to some of the other bullets, especially in 170gr and 180 grain bullets along with the bullets that 86er mentioned. The more I think about it, the more I think this wil be a really fun project. I get to shoot my stock of 30-30 ammo up, and get a boost of velocity with heavier bullets. The rifle I found is pretty kewl. will know in a few days if I won it. More to follow. keep your comments coming. Thanks for those who have commented.

piller · Post by **piller** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:48 pm

Considering that ammunition is not a problem to obtain, you can obtain enough increase in velocity to make some bullets work better, and it is in a levergun, what could be the downside?

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:59 am

piller wrote:Considering that ammunition is not a problem to obtain, you can obtain enough increase in velocity to make some bullets work better, and it is in a levergun, what could be the downside?

Even the dies are affordable, at least the ones from Lee.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:15 am

The only downside I see to the AI is for cast bullet shooting. The short neck of the AI is not a benefit for us casty shooters: not conducive to best results to have the base and lube grooves poked down into the case below the neck as would be the case with heavy cast bullets.

But for jacketed bullets that has to be a worthwhile "Improvement".

Jeff H · Post by **Jeff H** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:55 am

Hobie wrote:The one Fadala book that counts here has come down in price along with the economy (has have many such books). Where it was $100 and up it is now about $50 and up........

Holy cow!
The ones I saw were his black powder books for $3 to $20+.
I bought my Dad one someone here mentioned recently for father's day for something like $8.
It was a little rough but not too bad.

Sam Fadala's writing was what got me interested in the 30-30AI to begin with. I always liked his stuff and trusted his reporting.

I had a 7x57AI that gave me a net gain in velocity of ZERO from a 24" tapered octogan Douglas premium barrel on a Ruger M77.
I think that the main problem was that I stuck to traditional 7x57-suitable powders and should have looked a bit beyond that.

My Dad has turned at least 200 fps gain in the .257 Roberts version and did the same thing with a 8x57 case with a .308 bullet ("wildcat") that he thought would be a better .30 cal. in the standard Mauser action than the '06. Not that it was a cartridge that filled much of a gap but that kind of thing just sort of happens when you have a bunch of actions, 50 years of tool and die experience and access to machines.

The AI case shape did not go well with the M77 plunger ejector either, as the case was forced into the right lug raceway and hung up. Should not be a problem in a lever at all.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:55 pm

bummers, some guy just bought it on buy it now. darn it. now that I had found the rifle I liked, now I can't have it. should have done the buy it now.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:56 pm

rjohns94 wrote:bummers, some guy just bought it on buy it now. darn it. now that I had found the rifle I liked, now I can't have it. should have done the buy it now.

Since it's gone anyway, could you post a link to it so those of us who are interested could see it?

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:53 pm

sure, here is the link:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =238626949

I"m considering having WWG build me one in a takedown version.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:26 pm

so pressures go down with the increased case volume?

or better, what are the typical operating pressures at the elevated velocities?

thanks

Grizz

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:34 pm

Mike you may be better off in the end to start with your own rifle and get it rechambered.
Work up the maximum loads in the rifle in the 30-30, then you have an easy place to start from when the chamber is cut for the new cartridge.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:36 pm

supposedly, the pressures remain under 30K, more reading reveals about 150fps average for same bullet weigt. 5% increase in powder, about 2% gain in velocity. pressures go down due to geometry of the case shoulder?

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:38 pm

Don says it all very well. The shoulder is pushed well forward.
If you are looking for high performance, the pressures are high but there does not seem to be a down side to that.
We have shot a lot of ammunition through our rifles at high pressure with no ill affect.

If you shoot cast bullets, you have a challenge ahead of you. The 30-30AI is really a jacketed bullet cartridge.

Terry Murbach was the most knowledgeable guy we found when we started shooting the cartridge. Terry knew the answers and started us off in the right direction.

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Terry's a good old boy & knows his stuff. That notwithstanding, I like mine (just one 336CS) just fine!!!! Go getcha one pard!

LB

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:34 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:AND IT LOOKS BETTER THAN ANN-MARGRET'S FANNY...

Are you talking today or 30 years ago?

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:00 pm

Got to be today. I was a teenager 30 years ago and still remember what she looked like back then.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:52 am

Reduction in pressure has nothing to do with case 'shape'. It is due to increased volume.

Decreased pressures of themselves will result in decreased ballistics if the paowder and charges remain the same. Increased volume does make it possible to substitute larger charges and slower burning powders which when loaded to the original pressures can increase velocities.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I once had a 30/30 AI and there is nothing wrong with it. I now have a M94 BB .307 and there isn't anything the smaller 30/30 AI does that I can't duplicate in it with equal powder charges. AS I shoot 99% reloads the availability of 307 ammunition is not a consideration for me.

When I was younger I wanted a .35/30 but I later got a M94 BB .356 and the craving went away.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Friends Call Me Ji wrote:
Terry Murbach wrote:AND IT LOOKS BETTER THAN ANN-MARGRET'S FANNY...
Are you talking today or 30 years ago?

Either / or. I recently watched "Grumpier Old Men" and there were no problems with her or the Italian gal in there either (edit-- i think that movie is also about 15 years old though )

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:24 pm

rjohns94 wrote:sure, here is the link:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =238626949

I"m considering having WWG build me one in a takedown version.

Oh man ! I understand being bummed on missing out on that one

Thats a heckuva rifle for a single g-note

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:31 pm

Terry Murbach wrote: . . . AND IT LOOKS BETTER THAN ANN-MARGRET'S FANNY...

I wouldn't go that far, Terry.

Noah

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:41 pm

Question about the 30-30AI.

I have read somewhere that there are more than one version of the 30-30AI. Something to do with the shoulder angle or location of same.

Is there cartridge schematics out there for these or is it true at all?

Just curious. Trying to learn things.

Joe

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:03 pm

I thought Harris Brader from Vancouver Washington had an improved 30-30. Brader had an improved 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 25-30-30, 25-36 Marlin, improved 25 Krag etc. I thought I had a picture of it but I cannot find it.
Ackley made up the improved 30-30 for Robert Hutton.

smokenrust · Post by **smokenrust** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:42 pm

"I have read somewhere that there are more than one version of the 30-30AI. Something to do with the shoulder angle or location of same."
J Miller, that is what I read too and would also like a definaten answer to that question.
I read the best way to go about an AI project is to buy the reamer and have a matching die made for that reamer dimensions... Another read was to ream the chamber and then cast the chamber and use the dimensions to cut the die.
Yet another said was just to fireform the cases and then just neck size as long as you use the AI casings in the same gun.
I like the looks of the AI casings and the performance increase so have been reading this thread. I also have several 30-30s I would like to do an AI reaming to them too.

biggfoot44 · Post by **biggfoot44** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:23 am

Holy necrothread ! Sorry, but I was searching on .30-30 Imp, and after loging in shocked at how long since visiting.

There can be and are lots of flavors of "Improved", but Ackley Improved is a specific design. Speaking generally the other well known family of Improved ctgs is the RCBS. Typically 25 deg shoulder and a small amount of case taper left. Less capacity increase, but intended for more reliable feeding in wide varity of rifles.

But back at pressure questions : There is another theory, regarding Casehead Thrust. Greatly oversimplified, it goes that for rifles where the action strength\ springness is the limiting factor rather than strength of the bbl per se , the amount of thrust avainst the bolt face is the critical calculation. Adherents of the theory point out various reasons why Improved cases have greater clinging to chamber walls, and consequently less thrust against bolt face for any given pressure. Taking the theory to next step, increase the load to match the bolt thrust of unimproved case, pressure will be higher, and vels consequently higher. This is probably the mechanism of those reported 300fps gains.

Does this Idea hold any water ? Don't do anything stupid from reading this, but for the narrow category of strong bbl & springy action I don't dismiss it out of hand.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:24 pm

Here's a pre-safety Marlin336 in 30-30 AI up for sale...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =535483991

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:47 pm

What advantages does the 30-30 AI have over the .307 WCF. or the 30-30 FTX 160grn. Hornady factory load?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:26 pm

I know I had an opinion on this back in 2011... and it ain't changed. I still don't have a .30-30AI. If I want 150 more fps, I go to a 130gr bullet. Deer will be just as dead, and never know the difference!

It ain't they're gonna think, "oh my, that feller has an 'AI' and drop dead..."

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:54 pm

Talk about reviving a topic! Funny thing I was just thinking the other day on converting my Savage 219B to AI but there are different variations. Thinking............

Mainehunter

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:43 pm

I believe the only other widespread version is the Gary Reader/Paco version.

I have three. The 170-grain bullet at 2.350 fops is a significant Improvement. You can beat this easily but there is no need.

The advantagecof the .308 Marlin is the availability of superior factory ammunition and at least in the early rifles the superior accuracy of the combination.

The .307 Winchester is better but not as accurate overall.

The .30-30AI makes sense when you have a rifle and want a low cost increase in performance. The 20" barrel AI delivering better performance than the 26" barrel standard .30-30.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:42 pm

Wow ! A 5 year old thread surfaces.
The .30-30 AI is one I always wanted but never did anything about. I think the main reason being I am mainly a cast bullet shooter and rarely push them past
1800-1900 fps. so the need for speed is mute with me.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:27 am

If you are looking at the 30-30 AI you are a reloader. If you are a reloader you can get your extra 150 fps velocity increase with a standard 30-30 from LVR powder. Just sayin'...

I have a regular Hornet and a K-Hornet. The K has some increase in velocity with jacketed bullets, allright. But the K has always been very disappointing with cast bullets while my regular hornet has been a joy with cast. I would have a small fear of the same thing going to 30-30AI, though as a 300 Savage shooter I now have work-arounds for when I want to shoot cast in the short neck things.

If someone has a burning desire for 30-30AI you should go ahead and get one. I just don't think you are getting all that much improvement.

william iorg · Post by **william iorg** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:43 am

My experience with Lvr Powder is that is has not given me any great leap in in velocity over Alliant Reloder 15 or Hodgdon Varget. In the 20" barrel rifles the 150-grain bullets will touch 2,400 fps with all three powders and the 170-grain bullets will touch 2,350 and just a bit over. The 26" barrel rifles pick up quite a bit more velocity with all three powders.
I agree the Improved cartridges are jacketed bullet cartridges. There is no advantage if you intent is to shoot cast bullets.
With the K Hornet I find I am able to load accurate ammunition with less effort in the lower cost rifles. I see a difference when I uniform and deburr the flash hole, bottom the primer pockets and then with the Improved chamber there is another benefit in accuracy.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:10 am

william iorg wrote:I believe the only other widespread version is the Gary Reader/Paco version.

I have three. The 170-grain bullet at 2.350 fops is a significant Improvement. You can beat this easily but there is no need.

The advantagecof the .308 Marlin is the availability of superior factory ammunition and at least in the early rifles the superior accuracy of the combination.

The .307 Winchester is better but not as accurate overall.

The .30-30AI makes sense when you have a rifle and want a low cost increase in performance. The 20" barrel AI delivering better performance than the 26" barrel standard .30-30.

Thanks for the info.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:37 pm

Wow, thanks for bringing this thread back to life. It reminded me that I haven't played with my 30-30AI in quite a while. I've been meaning to try the Hornady gummy tip bullets in it with the LVR powder. I have tried the LVR powder with Speer 150's and wasn't impressed with the accuracy and velocity wasn't any better than what I get with RL15.
With RL15 and the Speer 150 I can get 2500 fps, even with the 18 1/2" barrel of my little Marlin 30TK here.

KWK · Post by **KWK** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:28 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:IT SOLVES ANY AND ALL OF THE 30-30 CASE SHAPE PROBLEMS...

All right, I must admit I don't see that the .30-30 has any case shape problems. About the only thing you can change is to blow the shoulder forward, but you don't pick up much capacity in doing so, say 1.5 gn. The Powley computer figures you might pick up 1% more fps, so I'm mystified as to why make such a change.

Karl