Winchester 1895 .38-72 Range Report #3

[Shasta]

Here is another installment of my on-going work with an 1898 vintage Model 95 Winchester in .38-72. This link will take you to the previous thread:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=37503

I'll start with today's work using the 240 grain Lyman 375248 bullet sized .378". I reduced the previously tried load of IMR 3031 powder by 10%. Using 31 grains, velocity was 1,465 FPS, much better for this bullet. The five-shot fifty yard group was unremarkable at 2 1/2" and bore leading was light but evident even with just five shots.
Using a 23 grain charge of 5744 powder gave a very similar velocity at 1,453 FPS, however the group was a widely scattered 6" and there was unburnt powder kernel residue in the bore along with the same light leading as the previous powder.
Lastly I tried 27 grains of IMR 4198. This proved to be way too heavy a charge as velocity was 1,701 FPS and only three shots even hit the target. Bore leading was much worse too.

The rifle continues to show a marked preference for the RCBS 37-250-FN gas checked bullet. Sized at .379", the loaded cartridge is a very snug fit in the chamber. I can't seat the cartridge in the chamber with thumb pressure, but the lever pushes it in easily. With the above mentioned 31 grain charge of IMR 3031 powder four shots went into 1 1/4" with a fifth opening the group to 2". Velocity was very good at 1,418 FPS, and no bore leading either.
With the 23 grain charge of 5744, the RCBS bullet made 1,411 FPS with no leading, but grouped poorly at 3". There was unburnt powder in the bore too.
I was pleasantly surprized when I tried the RCBS bullet with 27 grains of IMR 4198. Velocity was 1,482 FPS and three of the five shots went into 3/4". The other two strayed out a bit, but I need to open the rear sight notch a little more than I did for a better sight picture. This load has promise!

The other bullet I tried today was a .378" diameter 300 grainer cast in the original .38-72 Winchester mould. I used 65 grains of Goex FFg black powder along with a 1/16" grease cookie sandwiched between two milk carton wads. The first five-shot target was a 8"+ group at an average velocity of 1,431 FPS. There was no evidence of leading but the bullets showed signs of tipping at the target, and the bore was very fouled by the black powder. For the next five shots I wiped the bore with two wet patches and one dry patch between each shot. This helped quite a bit, giving a 4" group at 1,459 FPS with no tipping, still nothing to brag about for the effort expended.
I think it will be very difficult to get this original bullet to shoot. Take a look at this picture of the three bullets I worked with today:



Left to right they are the Lyman 375248, The RCBS 37-250-FN, and the original Winchester. Note that the Lyman and the RCBS both have a longer driving band area in relation to the bullet nose. The Winchester bullet has more nose than driving bands, making it I believe more difficult to stabilize.

So what have I learned so far? Case necks HAVE to be thinned, the RCBS bullet works best, and IMR 4198 powder is showing the most promise. And just as importantly, I'm learning what doesn't work too!

Link to Range Report #4: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=37973

SHASTA

[KirkD]

Another great report! Thanks for posting. I, too, am finding the original Winchester bullet very susceptible to a slight wobble in flight. I think you hit the nail on the head with your observation of how long the nose is compared to the driving bands. Yesterday, I figured out a load using 2400 and I'm hoping to go to the range again today to try my final load if it isn't raining. Another thing I'm finding with the original bullet is that I can't move it any faster than about 1,435 fps down the bore, otherwise groups really open up and leading increases. It looks like a gas check is called for, as your results seem to indicate.

Unless my 2400 load somehow gives me excellent accuracy, I think I'm done with the original Winchester bullet. No wonder Winchester increased their twist rate three times on the 38-72 before production ceased. As near as I can measure, I have the slowest one at 1:26. I'm planning to order a custom bullet mould for a gas check bullet that has a lot more by way of driving bands. I'm looking at this one http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_det ... 270L-D.png It will also double as a 38-55 bullet.

I'll plan to send back your mould and that .381 sizing die with it. I'd sure be interested in what kind of accuracy you get with a .381 bullet, but you'll have to remove another thou from the neck walls to do it.

I suspect that lack of response to your range reports has to do with the rarity of the 38-72 cartridge. I really like the cartridge for some irrational reason and plan to get a straight-shooting load by hook or by crook. Thanks again for your report. I'm going to post one sooner or later once I get some time to do a write up and photos.

[C. Cash]

Looks like alot of fun! Great report and pics...thanks for sharing Shasta.

[Nath]

Shaster, did you manage to inspect the crown?

What lube was used on the bullet for the BP loads?

Was there a wet star appearing on the muzzle with the BP loads?

Is there an even sooty star on the muzzle from the smokeless loads?

Best wishes.

N.

[Shasta]

Nath,
Judging from your questions you might suspect that my cast lead bullets are possibly running out of lube. I do try to be mindful of adequate bullet lube as I shoot cast lead bullets almost exclusively. For the BP loads I used regular 50/50 beeswax and alox lube on the bullet, but I also added a 1/16" thick grease cookie beneath the bullet to insure adequate lube. The grease cookie is a black powder formula consisting of 2 parts beeswax, 1 part Neatsfoot Oil, and 1 part Murphy's Oil Soap. This is a receipe I got from one of Paul Matthew's books on black powder cartridge rifle shooting and it shoots very well in my guns. In my .38-72, the BP fouling does not appear dry or caked, nor is the bore leading, leading me to believe lube is adequate.

Checking the crown for a lube star is a good idea, one that I have not done with this rifle. Even so, I think my problems with leading arise not from lack of lube but from the fact that the non-gas checked Lyman 375248 bullet at .378" diameter is .003" too small for the bore. A styrofoam wad beneath the bullet as suggested to me in a prior post may help. When I tried the Lyman bullet with BP (see my original post) I used the grease cookie sandwiched between two milk carton wads and I got pretty good accuracy without leading, probably due to the wads protecting the base of the bullet and/or the bullet bumping up to better fit the bore. Bore leading occured only with the Lyman bullet using smokeless powder.

I think the wisest thing to do is simply stick with the gas check design RCBS bullet that works pretty well without any leading issues. And I will check for that lube star, simply because it is a wise thing to do. Thanks for reminding me!


SHASTA

[guido4198]

I'm enjoying the reports from you and Kirk on this cartridge from these fine old rifles.
Thanks for sharing.

[KirkD]

Like you mentioned above, I think your biggest challenge is the undersized bullets. Your gas check bullet does remarkably well under those conditions.

[w30wcf]

Shasta,
Nice report!

If it were me I would use PSB (Poly Shot Buffer) over the charge of 3031. That would act as a gas check to allow the undersized bullet to transverse the barrel without gas cutting, thus preventing leading, and would keep the powder in the same location from shot to shot. I doubt that you are running out of lube.

The undersized nose of the original bullet would allow the bullet to "yaw" in the barrel at higher velocity which doesn't help accuracy.

w30wcf

[Nath]

Thanks for your reply friend.

N.