30-30 load for home defense

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azmark
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30-30 load for home defense

#1 Post by azmark » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:37 pm

What would be a good load for home defense in a lever action 30-30, either commercial or handloaded? I'm assuming that for HD it would be important to minimize overpenetration.
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#2 Post by Lastmohecken » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:01 pm

You should probably stay with factory ammo, because many experts agree and have put down in print that, using reloads is viewed by many as somehow more premetitated, and and will cause you grief if you end up going to trial over a a shooting, and will hurt your defense.

Maybe if you look around, you might find some lighter 130gr varmit bullets for the 30/30, but generally you will be limited to either 150gr or 170gr flatnoses and they will penertrate. If you live in a built up area, the 30/30 might not be a real good choice.

A leveraction chambered in a pistol round like the .357 or 44mag or even 45 colt would be better, when it comes to finding a load that won't pass through several walls.

However, a 30/30 will definately get the job done, and has been used for social purposes for over a hundred years.

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#3 Post by Tycer » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:28 pm

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#4 Post by wm » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:13 pm

I agree with Lastmohecken's post.

You might consider picking up a good used shotgun like a 12 or 20 gauge Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. Here in mid Michigan you can generally find them for $150 or so.

Loaded with #6 shot in a 'trap' load would provide you a man stopping punch without a lot of pentration through building materials.

Wm

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#5 Post by Nath » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:33 pm

I have often wondered about the Speer 110HP. It seems to destroy it self easily at speed and could be considered one of the few options for a l/action as a varmint load. The only draw back is in my 94 sometimes they can hang up on the way into the chamber.
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#6 Post by Old Savage » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:07 pm

Seems like too much of a penetration problem (walls etc.) unless you live alone.
Last edited by Old Savage on Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#7 Post by Scott64A » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:12 pm

I don't agree with Moheckan's post at all.

Defending your home in an act of self-defense, (and all that statement LEGALLY implies,) is not the same as premeditated murder.

-It's just not, nor is it viewed as such by courts. It doesn't matter where you get ammo from, so long as you are a:) threatened IN your own home, or b:) assaulted in your home.

Maybe in Michigan, they don't honor any Castle Doctrine, but for actual states that choose to be among the Republic, you are OK using any legally obtainable ammo, and that includes your own reloads.


Having said that, I don't see why anyone would use a high=powered deer rifle such as the .30-30 to shoot an invader, but if I were to develop a load for this purpose, I'd use some of my Speer 110grJHP moving around 1400fps.

It's the same principle as using 125grJHP in a .357 magnum: more tissue damage and less penetration, (through,).

A 170gr FP loaded at deer hunting velocities would most likely end up in a neighbor's house not to mention through a couple of rooms in your own house.

I would bet by presenting this information and evidence in your own defense would show well of you in a court.

"Your honor, I purposely loaded this lighter weight, lighter velocity round to avoid any collateral damage that may have occurred. It is only used for the purpose of home defense as in THIS instance, where the defendant, Mr. Silky Johnson forced entry and swung his prybar at my head."

:)

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#8 Post by Tycer » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:55 pm

Devil's advocate:

The prosecutor:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Mr.64s last comment proves my point: He planned to murder Mr. Johnson before he even met him. He rolled his own murder weapon. Had he simply used his trusty old levergun with the hunting loads he used for deer, I MIGHT believe he had no option but to shoot, but from his own mouth he told of his insidious plan to execute a premeditated death sentence."

That said, I do load my own PD rounds.

Unfortunately for me, NC does not have a Castle Doctrine yet. I am required by law to flee a home invader and not defend my property. The only justification for defense is fear for life and limb. I know I will act within the law.
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#9 Post by JimT » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:11 pm

To answer the question that started this thread:

Use whatever is the most reliable in your firearm. Accuracy, power, and all those other things are useless if you cannot rely on the gun to function properly each time it is fired and the action cycled.

Questions of overpenetration are fine for discussion but really do not have any bearing.

The question of handloads has been discusses and cussed for years. There have been no cases of justifable use of force being challenged because of handloads.

It always comes down to this: "Was the use of deadly force justified?" If it was it does not matter if the person used a .22, a .600 Nitro, a baseball bat or a sledgehammer.

If you are speaking of civil suits .. that is wide open and a person can be sued for anything.

If you have time to think about how it might look in a lawsuit, you are not in a situation that requires the use of deadly force anyway.

So in answer to the post, use what works best in your gun. And pray to the Almighty that you never have to use it.

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#10 Post by cush » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:35 pm

If you live in the People's Republic of Kalifornia and are surrounded by neighbors in townhouses or condos overpenetration is a concern.

While we all try to observe Rule 4 we can't always be absolutely sure of a completely clear background in a life and death self self defense situation.

I've opted for Federal factory 230 grain Hydroshock .45acp for my carry guns, and a .45 Colt Rossi with 255 gr Keith cast lead handloads over 8 gr of Unique for use in the Rossi levergun if I feel the need for an "urban rifle". The loads are safe in my single actions so I don't have to worry about accidently mixing in hot loads.
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#11 Post by John Y Cannuck » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:41 pm

Walls are not really an issue for just about any cartridge you care to name. Granted the 30-30 will out penetrate pretty much any handgun round.
I wonder how the old Remington accelerators would work. What were they, 50 grain?

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#12 Post by oldgerboy » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:03 pm

Federal markets a 125 grain hollow point cartridge.

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#13 Post by wm » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:08 pm

Please let me clarify.....when I said I agreed with Lastmohecken's reply I was referring to his concern about over penetration.

The question of reloads to me was secondary. I have enough faith in the jury system to believe that your average person is going to acquit you if the shooting was legit. If it wasn't then factory ammo is not going to keep you out of trouble.

Wm

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#14 Post by wm » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:16 pm

And for the record Michigan has always had a castle doctrine.....it was for the last 200 years accepted as common sense but was actually codified and passed into law about 3 years ago.

Wm

P.S. When I was a firearms instructor we had an anti gun prosecutor who came in and spoke about the legal issues surrounding CCW to our students. One comment of his has always stuck with me.....That he was elected to his office but he would not keep that job long if he took cases to court that he could not win. Finding 12 people that would look at an upstanding member of the community who shot someone in self defense was a tough sell.

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#15 Post by BlaineG » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:37 pm

If you plan ahead, you can save, or lessen the damage to your hearing by using a large bore, low pressure load like a .45 acp and such....and yes, I do think about those things.......
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#16 Post by mescalero1 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:05 pm

I have a Smith&Wesson model 1917, it has a 6" bull barrel,with a Bomar rib on top.
Use full moon clips, and shoot the old " flying ashtray " hollwpoints, they open up quick & dump energy quick, my best solution so far

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#17 Post by 444Hal » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:18 pm

I've got a 30/30 sitting right next the TV I'm looking at right now. And sitting next to that Marlin 336 is a box of Remington 170 Hollow points.
PMC was making something called "Starfire" 150grain HP's too.

Come to think of it. You can always pull the bullets on the Rem. HP's and change the powder load. No one would be the wiser. :roll:

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#18 Post by ozymandias » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:10 pm

I just checked on the availability of Glaser Safety Slug ammo in 30-30, and while they make .223, .308 and 30-06 they unfortunately do not make 30-30.

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#19 Post by Scott64A » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:16 pm

Say, a friend of mine had some fancy ammo loaded up in his H&K .40 S&W that had a nylon looking ball in the hollow point. He said it "was like shooting a .357 magnum; around 1450fps."

I bet they were very light, maybe 80 gr or so. The only downside: they cost $1.25 each round!

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#20 Post by horsesoldier03 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:37 pm

There are definately better options out there than to try to load down a 30-30 to prevent over penetration. Failing to meet your goal could prove to be detrimental to a loved one. My personal preference is a handgun loaded with rounds that will be relatively easy to stop in a wall. However, I have seen instances where a 9mm 124 grn HP went through at least 2 walls and then went length wise inside the dry wall for a good 2 ft where the bullet then fell and rested on a couch. Personally, I feel that a 20 ga shotgun loaded with 2, T, or Buckshot would be the best alternative.

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#21 Post by JimT » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:29 am

Any round - shotgun or otherwise - that is effective at stopping an assailant will not be slowed down much by sheetrock. If you have never set up sheetrock and fired into it you really need to do so .. with a number of different types of guns and ammo.

#6 or #8 shot will still go completely through, depending on distances of course.

You cannot focus on technology. The flying ashtray 45's will plug up with paper and insulation and penetrate like hardball. The oil-filled, loaded with shot frangible bullets don't work against someone wearing a heavy coat.

You cannot "techno" through this.

The things you can do is:
Training
Practice

If you don't know how to shoot in a crowded situation and if you do not practice you already have a couple strikes against you.... because the bad guy does not care where his bullets go.

You will hesitate and that can be fatal.

Along with Training and Practice you need to shoot in high-stress situations. Go shoot a match where you shoot against a timer and against other people. Don't shoot against people you know. Shoot in a match in front of spectators and against strangers.

If you cannot function smoothly in a situation like that what makes you think you will function smoothly when someone is trying to kill you or a loved one?

There are other ways of shooting in high-stress situations. Take advantage of them.

Your focus should not be so much on the gun or the ammo. YOU are the largest part of the equation. If YOU do not function properly, all the rest of the stuff don't matter.

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#22 Post by mescalero1 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:02 am

I'm single & live in a slump block home, my stuff is probably not make it outside

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#23 Post by mescalero1 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:05 am

Oh, and it does have green plastic insert in the front site; seems my old eys can pick up green better than anything

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#24 Post by RIHMFIRE » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:15 am

ALTHOUGH I LOVE MY LEVERS...
FOR MY HOME DEFENCE LONG GUN, I WOULD GRAB
MY REMINGTON 870 PUMP...WITH BUCK SHOT...
HANDGUN...45 ACP
BUT IF A 30-30 IS ALL YOU HAVE...THATS JUST AS GOOD..
AND DONT WORRY ABOUT THIS BS ABOUT LAWSUITS
AND RELOADS...

Idahoser

#25 Post by Idahoser » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:37 am

I doubt you could count on Glasers to not get squished in a tube mag.

150gr SilverTips for me, but it's not usually going to be the one I can reach first. Gotta have something better than a handgun close by, though.

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#26 Post by Bluehawk » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:38 am

To answer the first question You CAN use a 30/30 for defense but its not the optimum weapon in home .
AGAIN there are no cases ever of any one bringing up the question in court of relaoded ammo FORGET THAT IN THE EQUATION
Do YOu beleive its a life and death situation ??????? If so use what ever is handy . BUT keep soimething suitable handy . AND that is not usually a 30/30 rifle or carbine in a home situation.
PERSONALLY I keep a single shot 12 guage loaded with #2 copper plated shot as my first line of defense after that its anything goes
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30-30 For the Home

#27 Post by Idiot » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:09 pm

There is no such thing as over penetration - just hit your target. Use your tried and true deer hunting load. It will work just fine.

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#28 Post by Hobie » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:10 pm

Idahoser wrote:I doubt you could count on Glasers to not get squished in a tube mag.

150gr SilverTips for me, but it's not usually going to be the one I can reach first. Gotta have something better than a handgun close by, though.
Glasers will work just fine, i.e. no "squishing", so long as they feed. They fed well in my 1894C. Oh, and the .38 Specials got, IIRC, 2000+ fps. :wink:
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#29 Post by gcs » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:42 pm

If I recall correctly, on one of these boards, by someone who has used this round in his line of work for 2 legged varmints, the choice's were...

Win 150 gr HP
Federal 125 gr. HP

These two delivered the most smack down, with the least collateral damage. They are both readily available, and are Factory rounds.

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#30 Post by Sarge » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:49 pm

I'll back Taylor on everything he wrote and gcs on his last post. FWIW have been a cop for near 30 years- and the Investigator for a PA office for the last 11.

Go back & read JimT's first post.

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#31 Post by 444Hal » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:42 pm

I'm with Jim T also. If it don't penetrate 2 layers of 1/2" rock. It aint gonna do much to a body. But here's a site that may help........

http://www.internetarmory.com/rifle_ammo.htm

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#32 Post by stretch » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:17 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about the load for PD with a 30-30.

You've got more than enough power there for anything short
of a Kodiak bear.

Use the cheapest load you can shoot accurately, and practice,
practice, practice. Getting the FIRST round of the fight ON TARGET
will mean more than what load you're using. Note the caps -
the FIRST round ON TARGET will win the fight.


-Stretch

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#33 Post by Lastmohecken » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:10 pm

I don't worry about over penetration, for home defense, but then I know where everyone is in the house, and my closest neighbor is half a mile away, so I don't have to worry about killing someone in the next appt.

However, in regards to handloads, I would perfer my own handloads in my 45 auto to many factory loads, but when I took my CCW Class, we were instructed not to carry a pistol for defense with handloads and that has been carried farther into the home, by many noted authorities on personal defense, including Massad F. Ayoob.

His point is that a lawyer may say something like, "this man was not satisified with over the counter ammo and tailor made his own killer ammo in his basement, because factory ammo was not deadly enough. Bullcrap of course, but I was taught that even if you win in a criminal court of law, you will probably be sued in civil court by the perp or relatives of the perp, and this will work against you. And I guarantee you that the people on the jury will not be good ol boys who like to shoot and think the same way you do.

I am surprised that so many on here, disagree with this, as it has been taught extensively in classes on lethal defense for over twenty years. I remember back in the 70's and before when people like Bill Jorden used to advise people on handloads for self defense, and back then it was common practice to use handloads for defense, but no one advocates using handloads for selfdefense, now days, in any of the gun rags, and that is because it is a bad idea, when the lawyers get involved.

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#34 Post by ursavus.elemensis » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:33 pm

444Hal wrote:I'm with Jim T also. If it don't penetrate 2 layers of 1/2" rock. It aint gonna do much to a body. But here's a site that may help........ http://www.internetarmory.com/rifle_ammo.htm
That's a good link, but the updated version of this info is here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

".30-30 Winchester
This hoary old round has survived so long for a simple reason: it works. Load your Winchester or Marlin .30-30 lever-action rifle with any hollowpoint - I recommend the Federal 125 grain (3030C). Leave the soft-points for hunting and practice.

.357 Magnum
Follow the guidelines for revolvers, above. The .357 makes an excellent carbine round for urban self-defense in Marlin or Winchester lever-action or Action Arms/Israeli Military Industries "Timber Wolf" .357 pump-action carbines.

.44 Magnum
Pick any good hollowpoint, using the guidelines for revolvers (above). Don't be tempted to use softpoints; these hunting rounds will blow right through your foe."
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#35 Post by JimT » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:15 pm

Lastmohecken wrote:
I am surprised that so many on here, disagree with this, as it has been taught extensively in classes on lethal defense for over twenty years. I remember back in the 70's and before when people like Bill Jorden used to advise people on handloads for self defense, and back then it was common practice to use handloads for defense, but no one advocates using handloads for selfdefense, now days, in any of the gun rags, and that is because it is a bad idea, when the lawyers get involved.
One reason many of us disgree with that premise is that it has not worked that way in the courts. There has never been a case where a DA has prosecuted someone for using handloaded ammo in a self-defense situation.

Ever.

When it comes to the DA prosecuting someone for a shooting the only consideration is whether it was a justifiable use of deadly force. As I said, it makes no difference what was used.

If you are worried about civil liablities, move to a state that has a "castle doctrine" in place. Under it, if a shooting is ruled justifiable, no suit can be filed.

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#36 Post by BlaineG » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:22 am

Jim, I don't think the fear is from a DA, but from a jury in a civil case after the DA refuses to charge you......(that, BTW, should be a crime in itself, that double jeprody BS of a civil suit when there is no legal guilt :evil: )
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#37 Post by JimT » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:56 am

BlaineG wrote:Jim, I don't think the fear is from a DA, but from a jury in a civil case after the DA refuses to charge you......(that, BTW, should be a crime in itself, that double jeprody BS of a civil suit when there is no legal guilt :evil: )
I am sure you are correct.

And that is why everyone needs to get the "castle doctrine" laws passed in their states.

Missouri's reads "... 563.074. 1. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 563.016, a person who uses force as described in sections 563.031, 563.041, 563.046, 563.051, 563.056, and 563.061 is justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability. "

No criminal or civil liablity in a justified use of force.

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#38 Post by azmark » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:15 am

ursavus...thanks for that link. I thought that was a good article.

Just for reference, I should tell everybody that 1) This rifle won't be my only defensive firearm in the house...I have a 12 ga. and a .357 already, and 2) my nearest neighbor is over a 1/4 mile away and I live in a rural area. The rifle I get will be my only centerfire rifle for quite some time. I may want to hunt with it as well, which is why I thought about the 30-30. Seems to have worked for a long time for a lot of people on all kinds of critters.
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#39 Post by horsesoldier03 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:03 am

Mark, IMO you will be good to go if that is your situation. I personally would use a 125 grn or 130 grn JHP.

As far as no one ever being prosecuted or had selection of ammunition or use of reloads being used against them in a court trial; I was able to find ref. to New Jearsy vs. Daniel N. Bias. However I cannot get the archive to open to read the particulars. I do know in the CCW course I took, reloads were strongly discouraged for this same issue as well as making sure that you have 100% reliable ammunition. That being said, I only use premium ammo for home/self defense. (.45 230 grn Fed Hydro Shocks)

Jim T did say it all and sum it up nicely; it doesnt matter what gun or ammo you use if you dont practice and obtain and maintain proficiency!

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#40 Post by JimT » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:45 am

horsesoldier03 wrote:
As far as no one ever being prosecuted or had selection of ammunition or use of reloads being used against them in a court trial; I was able to find ref. to New Jearsy vs. Daniel N. Bias.
Daniel Bias's case was a suicide.

He reported that his wife shot herself with his gun. He had it loaded with handloads. The Police confiscated the gun (which is normal) and ran tests to see if the gunshot residue matched.

They noted he had +P cartridges in the gun. Even though he told them it was loaded with handloads (loaded with bullseye I believe it was .. it wasn't +P loads at any rate) they tested the GSR against known +P loads and it didn't match. Which would be normal.

But because they thought he had +P ammo in the gun and the GSR did not match .. and because the Bias's were having marriage problems .. a prosecutor charged him with murder. He was tried 2 or 3 times and eventually served time.

He still maintains that it happened as he said. Some have said that if he didn't have handloads in the gun he wouldn't have been prosecuted .. or at least convicted. While that may be, it is only a supposition. The authorities felt that it wasn't suicide and so prosecuted him.

NOTE: This was not a self-defense case.

This was a criminal investigation as to whether the wife shot herself or did the husband do it and make it look like suicide. There is a big difference between that and one where a person is attacked and defends themselves.

One other case where handloads were an issue was the Kennedy case .. a cop who had handloads in his gun. I believe he fired by mistake. I don't remember all the particulars in the case.

By the way, handloads were permissible at that time by department policy and he was exhonerated.

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#41 Post by 444Hal » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:32 pm

I look at it this way, Lawsuits work both ways.

The trauma of having a crazed evil person breaking into your humble home in the middle of the night can cause some lasting effects on you and your family. Many times It’s caused families to sell their home, at a loss, because the family feels traumatize & violated. Kids having nightmares, missing school, expensive counseling. Husbands experiencing lost wages because their family are too scared to stay home by themselves. Lets not forget the trauma you’ll be experiencing for having to take another life to protect your family. And again more expensive counseling and lost income. And trauma can cause a lot of other expensive health issues to yourself and family. Specially the kids. Even a mediocre lawyer can come up with a heck of a big counter lawsuit. :evil:

I could be a real *** if they'd try to get money from me. :twisted:

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#42 Post by 444Hal » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:41 pm

BTW, I think the 30/30 would be perfect for ya ! :)
Last edited by 444Hal on Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#43 Post by tman » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:28 pm

+1,+1. 444 hal

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#44 Post by horsesoldier03 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:00 pm

Thanks for the update Jim. Like I said, I couldnt get the file to open. I appreciate the info.

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#45 Post by Jeff Pitts » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:32 pm

I'm with Jim Taylor. I don't have any 'black guns', instead have a Marlin Cowboy in .44 loaded with 13 .44 special RN handloads that travel about 1200fps. Also are a couple .45's on my side of the bed.

BUT, I see no reason why ANY 30-30 loaded up with whatever is going to chamber flawlessly wouldn't work perfectly in an emergency.'

Jeff

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#46 Post by GANJIRO » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:24 pm

JimT wrote:To answer the question that started this thread:

Use whatever is the most reliable in your firearm. Accuracy, power, and all those other things are useless if you cannot rely on the gun to function properly each time it is fired and the action cycled.

Questions of overpenetration are fine for discussion but really do not have any bearing.

The question of handloads has been discusses and cussed for years. There have been no cases of justifable use of force being challenged because of handloads.

It always comes down to this: "Was the use of deadly force justified?" If it was it does not matter if the person used a .22, a .600 Nitro, a baseball bat or a sledgehammer.

If you are speaking of civil suits .. that is wide open and a person can be sued for anything.

If you have time to think about how it might look in a lawsuit, you are not in a situation that requires the use of deadly force anyway.

So in answer to the post, use what works best in your gun. And pray to the Almighty that you never have to use it.
Amen Pastor Jim, I turn wood as a hobby, and I have 2 favorite baseball bats I made myself one out of Mesquite (Kiawe) and another out of Blue Gum Eucalyptus. I also have an old commercial Louisville Slugger made out of Ash. If or when I choose to "repel borders" physically I will grab my home made Mesquite/Kiawe bat which is shorter but heavier than the Louisville Slugger so much more efficient for this purpose than the Louisville Slugger, darn the lawyers, full speed ahead! If they throw me in jail for protecting my family so be it as long as they're safe.

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#47 Post by JimT » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:28 am

Ji - Does Hawaii have a "castle doctrine" law? If not you guys need to start working on your legislators. As I posted, if that is in place, and if you have a case of justifiable use of force, there are no worries about lawsuits.

As I have said before also, if a person is worried about lawsuits they have their head in the wrong place to be participating in something so serious as use of deadly force.

As Mel Gibson said in SIGNS, "SWING AWAY!"

:shock:

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#48 Post by Rebel1972 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:36 am

Tom Horn thought the 30-30 was quite adequate.And he didn't worry too much about the consequences either.

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#49 Post by Slick13 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:00 pm

wm wrote:I agree with Lastmohecken's post.

You might consider picking up a good used shotgun like a 12 or 20 gauge Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. Here in mid Michigan you can generally find them for $150 or so.

Loaded with #6 shot in a 'trap' load would provide you a man stopping punch without a lot of pentration through building materials.

Wm
I agree a shotgun is the way to go. I disagree about using #6 birshot. I'd recommend buckshot (choose whatever size you like). If going with birdshot, I wouldn't use anything smaller than #4. An 1 1/4 oz or 1 3/8 oz pheasant load of #4 going 1300 fps will get someone's attention, but it still may not give the penetration you'd need (especially if someone is wearing heavy clothes or leather).

The .30-30 isn't a terrible choice for home defense, especially in a rural area, but IMO a riot gun will be a better choice. The riot gun usually holds a round or two more, should be easier/faster to operate and reload, there are more ammo choices, and while you still need to aim, it's easier to hit with a 6" to 10" pattern than a .308 bullet. Plus hopefully the intimidation factor of the shotgun comes into play and you never need to actually pull the trigger. Not that the .30-30 isn't intimidating, but I think the 12 ga. will get someone's attention quicker when they see it pointed at them.

~Michael

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#50 Post by JimT » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:17 pm

Slick13 wrote: ..... hopefully the intimidation factor of the shotgun comes into play and you never need to actually pull the trigger....
~Michael
The "intimidation factor" as you put will either work with any firearm or with none. If a person isn't intimidated when you pull a .22 pistol they won't be with the shotgun.

Every time I experienced a "close-range interpersonal confrontation" I did not care what the person was armed with. The fact they had a firearm was enough.

While it is there to some extent, please do not rely on any intimidation factor.

(and I know you were not Michael ... as you put it "hopefully" ...)

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