A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
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- Shasta
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A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
I've been fooling with the RCBS 25-85-CM cast lead bullet mould for some time in my Winchester Model 92 rifle in caliber .25-20. This is a plain base, two grease groove 85 grain flat nose bullet. The problem is it just won't fly perfectly straight. I've tried slowing it down to 1,000 feet per second, and I've tried speeding it up to 1,650 feet per second, and everything in between, but it always shows yaw in the bullet holes put on paper. Look at this picture, and you will see what I mean:
Each bullet hole shows a lube smudge on only one side of the hole, indicating an unstable bullet. The further out it goes, the more unstable it is likely to become. I'm not the only one to have had this problem. Our own Sixgun wrote about it in a thread from over a year ago:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40746
There's a fellow called Remington35 over on the Marlin Owners forum who has very thoroughly wrung out the .25-20, including using the RCBS bullet. He points out that it is a long bullet with two deep grease grooves meant to carry a lot of lube for shooting black powder. He suggests casting them very hard, water quenching, then Alox lubing to avoid the problem of excess lube. That sounded like a very reasonable observation to me, so I gave it a try. No joy, at least not for me. The yaw was still there.
So I'm sitting there looking at this bullet mould and thinking about what this guy had observed. Yep, it's long for the caliber. Yep, it has two deep, wide grease grooves. I'm not having any luck making it shoot straight. Right then and there, I got a notion. Why not just cut off one of those lube grooves? I used my dial caliper to determine that a cut of .175" would do the trick. I pulled the handles and sprue plate off the mould and took it to my brother's machine shop, and in a matter of minutes he removed the sprue plate stop pin, squared the mould up in his milling machine, and deftly shaved it off. Here it is right after the trim job:
I cold blued the raw surface, and was pretty pleased until I went to put the handles back on. For some reason RCBS has changed from a single long screw holding the handles on each half to a loose pin held in place by a following set screw. The cut had exposed the handle pin holes, and now the pins wouldn't work! Not to worry, I had some of the old style screws in my stash, and they worked just fine. The sprue plate bolt would also have to be shorted to accommodate the shorter mould blocks. No problem, just get out the hack saw. Here's a picture comparison of the original hardware on the right and the replacement hardware on the left, as well as another picture of the finished modification:
The bullets cast from the modified mould went from weighing 85 grains down to 63 grains. Here's a side-by-side comparison:
Best of all, the new shorter bullets show no evidence of yaw. They make nice even holes in the target paper.
I tested them on my metallic silhouette practice targets, Chicken at 40 meters, Pig at 50 meters, Turkey at 75 meters, and Ram at 100 meters. Load was 5.5 grains 2400 with a Winchester small rifle primer, shot from a rest. I was very pleased with how tight the group was on the 100 meter Ram:
I think I might just give this bullet a try at the silhouette match this weekend!
SHASTA
Each bullet hole shows a lube smudge on only one side of the hole, indicating an unstable bullet. The further out it goes, the more unstable it is likely to become. I'm not the only one to have had this problem. Our own Sixgun wrote about it in a thread from over a year ago:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40746
There's a fellow called Remington35 over on the Marlin Owners forum who has very thoroughly wrung out the .25-20, including using the RCBS bullet. He points out that it is a long bullet with two deep grease grooves meant to carry a lot of lube for shooting black powder. He suggests casting them very hard, water quenching, then Alox lubing to avoid the problem of excess lube. That sounded like a very reasonable observation to me, so I gave it a try. No joy, at least not for me. The yaw was still there.
So I'm sitting there looking at this bullet mould and thinking about what this guy had observed. Yep, it's long for the caliber. Yep, it has two deep, wide grease grooves. I'm not having any luck making it shoot straight. Right then and there, I got a notion. Why not just cut off one of those lube grooves? I used my dial caliper to determine that a cut of .175" would do the trick. I pulled the handles and sprue plate off the mould and took it to my brother's machine shop, and in a matter of minutes he removed the sprue plate stop pin, squared the mould up in his milling machine, and deftly shaved it off. Here it is right after the trim job:
I cold blued the raw surface, and was pretty pleased until I went to put the handles back on. For some reason RCBS has changed from a single long screw holding the handles on each half to a loose pin held in place by a following set screw. The cut had exposed the handle pin holes, and now the pins wouldn't work! Not to worry, I had some of the old style screws in my stash, and they worked just fine. The sprue plate bolt would also have to be shorted to accommodate the shorter mould blocks. No problem, just get out the hack saw. Here's a picture comparison of the original hardware on the right and the replacement hardware on the left, as well as another picture of the finished modification:
The bullets cast from the modified mould went from weighing 85 grains down to 63 grains. Here's a side-by-side comparison:
Best of all, the new shorter bullets show no evidence of yaw. They make nice even holes in the target paper.
I tested them on my metallic silhouette practice targets, Chicken at 40 meters, Pig at 50 meters, Turkey at 75 meters, and Ram at 100 meters. Load was 5.5 grains 2400 with a Winchester small rifle primer, shot from a rest. I was very pleased with how tight the group was on the 100 meter Ram:
I think I might just give this bullet a try at the silhouette match this weekend!
SHASTA
Last edited by Shasta on Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Great idea!! sure shoots Good. .
- gamekeeper
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Well thought out and seems to work just fine!..Good luck at the match..
If more men loved and cherished their wives as much as I love bacon the world would be a much better place.
Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
That is pretty darn smart
N.
N.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Perfect!
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
That works out quite well. I have modified several molds in such a way. Also removing the gas check step by boring at the lathe makes some neat designs but that method is very time consuming to set up in the four jaw to get it exactly true.
Have fun!!
Have fun!!
Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
I've considered doing the same thing to mine.
- Sixgun
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Shasta,
THATS what I call a "post of substance". Your are right, that bullet gave me all kinds of fits and all the while I figured I was doing something wrong because "why would RCBS make a bullet mould that was worthless". Well, it was worthless and Jack Kort now has the mould. I gave it to him and he claims he can make it work. Well, that's another story. On to your invention.....
Whats the fastest you have driven it at? My reasoning for that is because like you, I believe the 25-20 is the best pistol caliber silhouette cartridge ever made.........but............only if you can drive it fast enough for minimal elevation settings and to reduce barrel time. I like 'em about 1600 and this velocity only requires a half turn on the tang sight for the 100 meter rams.
63 grains..............mmmmm.............how does about 8 grains of AA#7 or maybe 10 gr. of 4227 sound?? With a pure lino bullet and a sr primer, ,it ought to do 1600.
I did solve the issue with my model 53 Win. and the 70 gr. Lyman bullet...........9 gr. of 4227 and the bullet (pure lino) seated out to 1.630 crimped with a LFCD. This length puts the front band right on the leade.
Nice post! Thanks for taking the time to post the pics.----------Sixgun
THATS what I call a "post of substance". Your are right, that bullet gave me all kinds of fits and all the while I figured I was doing something wrong because "why would RCBS make a bullet mould that was worthless". Well, it was worthless and Jack Kort now has the mould. I gave it to him and he claims he can make it work. Well, that's another story. On to your invention.....
Whats the fastest you have driven it at? My reasoning for that is because like you, I believe the 25-20 is the best pistol caliber silhouette cartridge ever made.........but............only if you can drive it fast enough for minimal elevation settings and to reduce barrel time. I like 'em about 1600 and this velocity only requires a half turn on the tang sight for the 100 meter rams.
63 grains..............mmmmm.............how does about 8 grains of AA#7 or maybe 10 gr. of 4227 sound?? With a pure lino bullet and a sr primer, ,it ought to do 1600.
I did solve the issue with my model 53 Win. and the 70 gr. Lyman bullet...........9 gr. of 4227 and the bullet (pure lino) seated out to 1.630 crimped with a LFCD. This length puts the front band right on the leade.
Nice post! Thanks for taking the time to post the pics.----------Sixgun
- Shasta
- Senior Levergunner
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Sixgun,
I just checked my records and here are some loads & velocities with this new 63 grain bullet measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph:
All loads used Remington brass
Primer Powder (grains) Velocity (fps) Accuracy
Win Sm. Rifle 2400 (5.5) 1,278 Very Good
Win. Sm. Rifle Trail Boss (3.5) 1,463 Good
Win. Sm. Rifle Unique (4.0) 1,498 Very Good
CCI Sm. Rifle Unique (4.0) 1,630 Very Good
Rem. Sm. Pistol Unique (4.0) 1,607 Fair
CCI Sm. Rifle IMR 4198 (10.0) 1,620 Good
CCI Sm. Rifle 5744 (9.0) 1,554 Fair
As you can see, good old Unique bumps this bullet along right lively! The bullets were a mix of wheel weights and linotype, and registered about a 9 on my Saeco Lead Hardness Tester, straight lino would be a 10 on that scale. I did get some light barrel leading at the higher velocities, but not much. The first load shown is the one I shot the pictured silhouettes with, and sight adjustment on my Marble's tang sight was only one and a half turns difference from Chicken to Ram.
SHASTA
I just checked my records and here are some loads & velocities with this new 63 grain bullet measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph:
All loads used Remington brass
Primer Powder (grains) Velocity (fps) Accuracy
Win Sm. Rifle 2400 (5.5) 1,278 Very Good
Win. Sm. Rifle Trail Boss (3.5) 1,463 Good
Win. Sm. Rifle Unique (4.0) 1,498 Very Good
CCI Sm. Rifle Unique (4.0) 1,630 Very Good
Rem. Sm. Pistol Unique (4.0) 1,607 Fair
CCI Sm. Rifle IMR 4198 (10.0) 1,620 Good
CCI Sm. Rifle 5744 (9.0) 1,554 Fair
As you can see, good old Unique bumps this bullet along right lively! The bullets were a mix of wheel weights and linotype, and registered about a 9 on my Saeco Lead Hardness Tester, straight lino would be a 10 on that scale. I did get some light barrel leading at the higher velocities, but not much. The first load shown is the one I shot the pictured silhouettes with, and sight adjustment on my Marble's tang sight was only one and a half turns difference from Chicken to Ram.
SHASTA
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
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http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Looks like a hard choice between the 2400 and Unique loads. Didn't a guy on MF also "ream" out the lube grooves on his RCBS mold, so they were shallower? Did that work also, never did read about the outcome. Have you tried using less than 4grs of Unique at all? Your "new" bullets look great, like a scaled down Saeco .358 180gr. RNFP.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
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- Sixgun
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Shasta,
Thanks for the reply. You are definitely on to something there.
I hate to admit it but the 1st place win I had at the Pa. Regionals was with the 70 gr. Speer bullet Those bullets shoot in to a little over an inch at 100 meters. The best cast bullet load I ever used was the bullets that Steelbanger sent me. ....70 gr. Ranch Dog........but I have since shot those up. The Lymans will do 3".....ok for club shoots but I want the best at the big shoots.
How do you like your sights at? In smallbore and pistol caliber silhouette I have the tang sights set at 4" high @ 40/50 which results in 2 and 1/2" @ 75 and "on" at 100, but I turn a half turn up for 3" @ 100. I like a 6 o'clock hold. -------------6
Thanks for the reply. You are definitely on to something there.
I hate to admit it but the 1st place win I had at the Pa. Regionals was with the 70 gr. Speer bullet Those bullets shoot in to a little over an inch at 100 meters. The best cast bullet load I ever used was the bullets that Steelbanger sent me. ....70 gr. Ranch Dog........but I have since shot those up. The Lymans will do 3".....ok for club shoots but I want the best at the big shoots.
How do you like your sights at? In smallbore and pistol caliber silhouette I have the tang sights set at 4" high @ 40/50 which results in 2 and 1/2" @ 75 and "on" at 100, but I turn a half turn up for 3" @ 100. I like a 6 o'clock hold. -------------6
- Shasta
- Senior Levergunner
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- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
- Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California
Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Sixgun,
It sounds like you have a single sight setting you adapt for use at all four distances. I prefer a dead-on hold and I readjust the height of my Marble's tang sight for each distance. I have made a reference mark on both the elevation knob and the elevation base with the sight bottomed out:
I count the individual clicks up for the sight setting at each distance. Each revolution of the stem is eight clicks, so if I need a setting of say 20 clicks, I just bottom the sight and then give it two and a half revolutions up, using my mark as a reference point. I make it a habit when I have finished shooting one silhouette animal to immediately readjust the sight for the next animal, so I don't have to start from scratch for each sight adjustment and the rifle is ready when I come to the firing line.
My biggest problem is that I have so many different rifles using this method, I have to keep individual note books for each rifle to remember what the settings are!
SHASTA
It sounds like you have a single sight setting you adapt for use at all four distances. I prefer a dead-on hold and I readjust the height of my Marble's tang sight for each distance. I have made a reference mark on both the elevation knob and the elevation base with the sight bottomed out:
I count the individual clicks up for the sight setting at each distance. Each revolution of the stem is eight clicks, so if I need a setting of say 20 clicks, I just bottom the sight and then give it two and a half revolutions up, using my mark as a reference point. I make it a habit when I have finished shooting one silhouette animal to immediately readjust the sight for the next animal, so I don't have to start from scratch for each sight adjustment and the rifle is ready when I come to the firing line.
My biggest problem is that I have so many different rifles using this method, I have to keep individual note books for each rifle to remember what the settings are!
SHASTA
Last edited by Shasta on Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
- Sixgun
- Posting leader...
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Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
Ha! Same as me! Its hard remembering where to put all of those sight settings. For an instance, say 38-40. I may regularly shoot 4 rifles in this caliber so in each 50 rd. box of ammo, I have a "settings chart" taped to the lid categorizing each rifle. Like you, I mark the adjusting knob and just count turns or fractions of turns, always rounding off to the nearest half.
Funny thing, after shooting multiple calibers extensively over the years, I find if you use a standard bullet weight within each caliber and keep velocities in the 1400-1600 range, most all sight setting adjustments stay the same, no matter what caliber you are shooting.
I use three velocity ranges, 1000-1200...........1400-1600..........and 1600-1800 While the lowest velocity ranges are the most accurate, its too easy to shoot "just over" or "just under" the rams, especially the 200 meter rams. The middle range level has always been the easiest for me. The fast bullets mess with your head a little as the recoil is too easily anticipated and will make me jerk the trigger.
Oh well, you never get it fully 100% as what fun would there be in always getting a 40 X 40. -------------6
Funny thing, after shooting multiple calibers extensively over the years, I find if you use a standard bullet weight within each caliber and keep velocities in the 1400-1600 range, most all sight setting adjustments stay the same, no matter what caliber you are shooting.
I use three velocity ranges, 1000-1200...........1400-1600..........and 1600-1800 While the lowest velocity ranges are the most accurate, its too easy to shoot "just over" or "just under" the rams, especially the 200 meter rams. The middle range level has always been the easiest for me. The fast bullets mess with your head a little as the recoil is too easily anticipated and will make me jerk the trigger.
Oh well, you never get it fully 100% as what fun would there be in always getting a 40 X 40. -------------6
Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
that was, by all appearances, a well thought out solution to a problem. Too Cool!
D. Brian Casady
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Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
- Shasta
- Senior Levergunner
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- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
- Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California
Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet
3leggedturtle wrote:Looks like a hard choice between the 2400 and Unique loads. Didn't a guy on MF also "ream" out the lube grooves on his RCBS mold, so they were shallower? Did that work also, never did read about the outcome. Have you tried using less than 4grs of Unique at all? Your "new" bullets look great, like a scaled down Saeco .358 180gr. RNFP.
I'm going with the 2400 because it meters through the powder measure so much better than Unique. I hadn't heard about anyone reaming the grease grooves, but then I don't usually frequent the Marlin site. I have not tried any less than 4.0 grains of Unique, but I did try 3.0 grains of Titegroup, which shot pretty well, but that is not much powder in the case.
SHASTA
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta