A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Shasta
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1558
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California

A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Shasta »

I've been fooling with the RCBS 25-85-CM cast lead bullet mould for some time in my Winchester Model 92 rifle in caliber .25-20. This is a plain base, two grease groove 85 grain flat nose bullet. The problem is it just won't fly perfectly straight. I've tried slowing it down to 1,000 feet per second, and I've tried speeding it up to 1,650 feet per second, and everything in between, but it always shows yaw in the bullet holes put on paper. Look at this picture, and you will see what I mean:

Image

Each bullet hole shows a lube smudge on only one side of the hole, indicating an unstable bullet. The further out it goes, the more unstable it is likely to become. I'm not the only one to have had this problem. Our own Sixgun wrote about it in a thread from over a year ago:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40746

There's a fellow called Remington35 over on the Marlin Owners forum who has very thoroughly wrung out the .25-20, including using the RCBS bullet. He points out that it is a long bullet with two deep grease grooves meant to carry a lot of lube for shooting black powder. He suggests casting them very hard, water quenching, then Alox lubing to avoid the problem of excess lube. That sounded like a very reasonable observation to me, so I gave it a try. No joy, at least not for me. The yaw was still there.

So I'm sitting there looking at this bullet mould and thinking about what this guy had observed. Yep, it's long for the caliber. Yep, it has two deep, wide grease grooves. I'm not having any luck making it shoot straight. Right then and there, I got a notion. Why not just cut off one of those lube grooves? I used my dial caliper to determine that a cut of .175" would do the trick. I pulled the handles and sprue plate off the mould and took it to my brother's machine shop, and in a matter of minutes he removed the sprue plate stop pin, squared the mould up in his milling machine, and deftly shaved it off. Here it is right after the trim job:

Image

Image

I cold blued the raw surface, and was pretty pleased until I went to put the handles back on. For some reason RCBS has changed from a single long screw holding the handles on each half to a loose pin held in place by a following set screw. The cut had exposed the handle pin holes, and now the pins wouldn't work! Not to worry, I had some of the old style screws in my stash, and they worked just fine. The sprue plate bolt would also have to be shorted to accommodate the shorter mould blocks. No problem, just get out the hack saw. Here's a picture comparison of the original hardware on the right and the replacement hardware on the left, as well as another picture of the finished modification:

Image

Image

The bullets cast from the modified mould went from weighing 85 grains down to 63 grains. Here's a side-by-side comparison:

Image

Best of all, the new shorter bullets show no evidence of yaw. They make nice even holes in the target paper.

I tested them on my metallic silhouette practice targets, Chicken at 40 meters, Pig at 50 meters, Turkey at 75 meters, and Ram at 100 meters. Load was 5.5 grains 2400 with a Winchester small rifle primer, shot from a rest. I was very pleased with how tight the group was on the 100 meter Ram:

Image


I think I might just give this bullet a try at the silhouette match this weekend! :D

SHASTA
Last edited by Shasta on Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member


http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html

avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
.45colt
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4736
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:00 am
Location: North Coast of America-Ohio

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by .45colt »

Great idea!! sure shoots Good. :mrgreen: .
User avatar
gamekeeper
Spambot Zapper
Posts: 17401
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Over the pond unfortunately.

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by gamekeeper »

Well thought out and seems to work just fine!..Good luck at the match.. :D
If more men loved and cherished their wives as much as I love bacon the world would be a much better place.
Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8660
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Nath »

That is pretty darn smart :)

N.
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!
User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7698
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Tycer »

Perfect!
Kind regards,
Tycer
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - https://peakprosperity.com/ - http://www.guntalk.com
Chuck 100 yd
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:52 pm
Location: Ridgefield WA. USA

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

That works out quite well. I have modified several molds in such a way. Also removing the gas check step by boring at the lathe makes some neat designs but that method is very time consuming to set up in the four jaw to get it exactly true.
Have fun!!
Marvin S
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:55 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Marvin S »

I've considered doing the same thing to mine.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18636
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Shasta,
THATS what I call a "post of substance". :D Your are right, that bullet gave me all kinds of fits and all the while I figured I was doing something wrong because "why would RCBS make a bullet mould that was worthless". Well, it was worthless and Jack Kort now has the mould. I gave it to him and he claims he can make it work. Well, that's another story. On to your invention.....

Whats the fastest you have driven it at? My reasoning for that is because like you, I believe the 25-20 is the best pistol caliber silhouette cartridge ever made.........but............only if you can drive it fast enough for minimal elevation settings and to reduce barrel time. I like 'em about 1600 and this velocity only requires a half turn on the tang sight for the 100 meter rams.

63 grains..............mmmmm.............how does about 8 grains of AA#7 or maybe 10 gr. of 4227 sound?? With a pure lino bullet and a sr primer, ,it ought to do 1600.

I did solve the issue with my model 53 Win. and the 70 gr. Lyman bullet...........9 gr. of 4227 and the bullet (pure lino) seated out to 1.630 crimped with a LFCD. This length puts the front band right on the leade.

Nice post! Thanks for taking the time to post the pics.----------Sixgun
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD

Image
User avatar
Shasta
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1558
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Shasta »

Sixgun,

I just checked my records and here are some loads & velocities with this new 63 grain bullet measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph:

All loads used Remington brass

Primer Powder (grains) Velocity (fps) Accuracy

Win Sm. Rifle 2400 (5.5) 1,278 Very Good
Win. Sm. Rifle Trail Boss (3.5) 1,463 Good
Win. Sm. Rifle Unique (4.0) 1,498 Very Good
CCI Sm. Rifle Unique (4.0) 1,630 Very Good
Rem. Sm. Pistol Unique (4.0) 1,607 Fair
CCI Sm. Rifle IMR 4198 (10.0) 1,620 Good
CCI Sm. Rifle 5744 (9.0) 1,554 Fair

As you can see, good old Unique bumps this bullet along right lively! The bullets were a mix of wheel weights and linotype, and registered about a 9 on my Saeco Lead Hardness Tester, straight lino would be a 10 on that scale. I did get some light barrel leading at the higher velocities, but not much. The first load shown is the one I shot the pictured silhouettes with, and sight adjustment on my Marble's tang sight was only one and a half turns difference from Chicken to Ram.

SHASTA
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member


http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html

avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
3leggedturtle
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4145
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:34 am
Location: north of Palacios about 1400 miles

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by 3leggedturtle »

Looks like a hard choice between the 2400 and Unique loads. Didn't a guy on MF also "ream" out the lube grooves on his RCBS mold, so they were shallower? Did that work also, never did read about the outcome. Have you tried using less than 4grs of Unique at all? Your "new" bullets look great, like a scaled down Saeco .358 180gr. RNFP.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18636
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Shasta,
Thanks for the reply. You are definitely on to something there.

I hate to admit it but the 1st place win I had at the Pa. Regionals was with the 70 gr. Speer bullet :oops: Those bullets shoot in to a little over an inch at 100 meters. The best cast bullet load I ever used was the bullets that Steelbanger sent me. ....70 gr. Ranch Dog........but I have since shot those up. The Lymans will do 3".....ok for club shoots but I want the best at the big shoots.

How do you like your sights at? In smallbore and pistol caliber silhouette I have the tang sights set at 4" high @ 40/50 which results in 2 and 1/2" @ 75 and "on" at 100, but I turn a half turn up for 3" @ 100. I like a 6 o'clock hold. :D -------------6
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD

Image
User avatar
Shasta
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1558
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Shasta »

Sixgun,

It sounds like you have a single sight setting you adapt for use at all four distances. I prefer a dead-on hold and I readjust the height of my Marble's tang sight for each distance. I have made a reference mark on both the elevation knob and the elevation base with the sight bottomed out:

Image

I count the individual clicks up for the sight setting at each distance. Each revolution of the stem is eight clicks, so if I need a setting of say 20 clicks, I just bottom the sight and then give it two and a half revolutions up, using my mark as a reference point. I make it a habit when I have finished shooting one silhouette animal to immediately readjust the sight for the next animal, so I don't have to start from scratch for each sight adjustment and the rifle is ready when I come to the firing line.
My biggest problem is that I have so many different rifles using this method, I have to keep individual note books for each rifle to remember what the settings are!

SHASTA
Last edited by Shasta on Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member


http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html

avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18636
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Sixgun »

Ha! Same as me! Its hard remembering where to put all of those sight settings. For an instance, say 38-40. I may regularly shoot 4 rifles in this caliber so in each 50 rd. box of ammo, I have a "settings chart" taped to the lid categorizing each rifle. Like you, I mark the adjusting knob and just count turns or fractions of turns, always rounding off to the nearest half.

Funny thing, after shooting multiple calibers extensively over the years, I find if you use a standard bullet weight within each caliber and keep velocities in the 1400-1600 range, most all sight setting adjustments stay the same, no matter what caliber you are shooting.

I use three velocity ranges, 1000-1200...........1400-1600..........and 1600-1800 While the lowest velocity ranges are the most accurate, its too easy to shoot "just over" or "just under" the rams, especially the 200 meter rams. The middle range level has always been the easiest for me. The fast bullets mess with your head a little as the recoil is too easily anticipated and will make me jerk the trigger.

Oh well, you never get it fully 100% as what fun would there be in always getting a 40 X 40. :lol: -------------6
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD

Image
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15213
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by piller »

that was, by all appearances, a well thought out solution to a problem. Too Cool!
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Shasta
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1558
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California

Re: A Drastic Cure For Yaw In The RCBS 25-85-CM Bullet

Post by Shasta »

3leggedturtle wrote:Looks like a hard choice between the 2400 and Unique loads. Didn't a guy on MF also "ream" out the lube grooves on his RCBS mold, so they were shallower? Did that work also, never did read about the outcome. Have you tried using less than 4grs of Unique at all? Your "new" bullets look great, like a scaled down Saeco .358 180gr. RNFP.

I'm going with the 2400 because it meters through the powder measure so much better than Unique. I hadn't heard about anyone reaming the grease grooves, but then I don't usually frequent the Marlin site. I have not tried any less than 4.0 grains of Unique, but I did try 3.0 grains of Titegroup, which shot pretty well, but that is not much powder in the case.

SHASTA
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member


http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html

avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
Post Reply