.410 derringers. Thoughts?

Skychief · Post by **Skychief** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:39 pm

Anybody have experience with or opinions about the .410 derringers (I'm interested in a Bond Arms model)?

I work in the woods everyday and my biggest threat would be dogs and coydogs. Possibly a meth cooker as well. Wondering if a Bond .410 makes sense for me.

Thanks for your thoughts, Skychief

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:52 pm

I believe, in my non-expert opinion, that two shots of minimally useful .410 is not worthwhile. If small size is a consideration, there are several smallish shooters made that would be more suitable....

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:32 pm

Dogs? OK. Coydogs? OK. Meth cookers? Take your levergun.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:49 pm

Excellent for mice...

For dogs, a .38 or 9mm minimum. For meth cookers, that or better, with reloads.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:15 am

As a fun-gun I might enjoy one, but the ones I've shot were actually pretty bulky and heavy for just two shots, and even with bullet-loads in the 45 Colt or slugs in the 410, hitting paper plates at 15 feet was a challenge whereas with my little 938 I can hit them at 75 feet pretty easily and have 5 more shots than the derringer.

The shotshells wouldn't be of use to me, as I'd not be bird hunting with it and I'd never shoot a snake.

There IS a certain 'nostalgia' a derringer has versus even a century-old design like the 1911, so when woods-walking where I don't mind carrying a larger firearm, I may have anything from a cap'n ball 1858 Navy to a 45 Colt Blackhawk, but with the 1858 Navy I'd likely have my little SIG along 'just in case'. Same if I was totin' a 410 derringer as my 'primary'.

No bears or lions or even moose where I live, so 4-legs would worst-case be a pack of feral dogs. One shot of almost anything usually sends the whole pack running. As to criminally-intent 2-legs, avoiding them is of course the best strategy, but if that fails and you need a weapon, the more intimidating it looks the less likely you'll have to fire it. So something 'big' has that advantage. Of course a rifle or shotgun is the trump card if it comes to that...!

My choices for CCW (where I want a gun along, but don't plan to use it, versus woods-walking where the gun is part of the hike, as in I may target shoot part way on the trail):

Smallest - North American Arms Mini-Revolver in 22 WMR - Tiny and stainless, and since the folding grip has a built-in clip to hang it on beltless pants, it is best for if I'm just wearing jogging-shorts. Five shots and reliable, and better than a sharp stick, but hard to hit paper plates with at 15 feet.

Small - SIG 938 '1911' in 9mm - Pocket-size, 7 shots, very reliable, and at slightly under 6" long by 4" high, probably about the size of most 410 derringers. WAY more accurate than the NAA Mini Revolver, or any derringer I've fired. I'd be confident a good 9mm bullet would stop most predators, and paper plates are in danger out to 75 feet or so.

Bigger - Para Ordnance P-12 1911 in 45 ACP - 12 shot doublestack 'Officers Model' clone. Best holstered but pocketable. Same format as the SIG, only more shots and more power. Tradeoff is weight; definitely bigger and heavier versus 410 derringer. For a similar-size revolver I'd carry my Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 Special, but it is 5 shots versus 12 and weighs less but still too bulky for small pockets.

For me those three represent the best balances between power and size as far as 'pocketable' guns suitable for protection. If looking for something about the size and weight of the 410 derringers out there, I'd get the SIG 938. There are other similar-size 9mms of course, but as a 1911 fan I like the exposed hammer and same controls as my larger CCW gun. The tritium sights are actually useful in dusk light, too. You'll spend $600 versus $400, but either gun should last a hundred years, and if you need to use either one for protection, at that moment a couple hundred dollars will not seem like a big deal.

Here's pics (not to scale though):

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:47 am

My outlook on firearms is everything that's built well and can be operated saftely is good for the whole scheme of things in the firearms versus anti turmoil . Now on a personal level as to a 410 derringer I am of the why would I need that variety . But then to each his own !

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:49 am

I bought a Bond that my dealer friend had ordered by mistake. He had a customer that ordered one that came in with the wrong barrel length. He asked if I wanted it for what his cost was and I bought it thinking it would be fun to play with.
It was really well made but large and heavy ( as big and heavy as my loaded G26). The trigger takes some getting used to as it pivots from an odd angle. Some say that the recoil isn't bad but I found it most unpleasant. I'd rather go 50 rounds with my heaviest .44 magnum loads then shoot one of those again. Accuracy was across the room at best, but that's not what it's really meant for anyway.
In theory it's a great idea, rugged, simple and reliable. Real world usefulness I'd pick something else.

jb

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:06 am

I'm with Jason above......small guns like derringers are hard to get into action and are easy to drop when stressed. I've been saying it for over 40 years...there's nothing like a small double action revolver to get into action fast.---6

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:43 am

If there were even a small chance of tangling with a meth cooker, I would want to be carrying a real gun.

Skychief · Post by **Skychief** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:39 am

Thanks for the replies. For work (in the woods), I've carried the NAA mini 22 mag, Beretta 21a, 3 different j-frames, and a KelTec 380.

Always looking for something that is easy to carry (generally, inside my pocket. I carry plenty of gear with me everyday, any more just gets burdensome), and reliable.

Watching a lot of reviews of the Bond 410's interested me. They must be reliable as a brick.

Yeah, two shots..... But, an argument I've read is with those two, a guy gets 8-10 pieces of buckshot downrange. Something to consider???

I do a lot of coyote hunting here in Indiana. The last couple of years, I've used a 20 gauge loaded with 2 3/4" #4 buck. I've been amazed at how the coyotes shot with this load just simply WILT! Hardly a twitch.

This, compared to hitting them good with everything from 22lr, 204 ruger, right up through 30/06, then watching many of them run a good ways before giving up the ghost, makes me curious about buck shot from a 410 handgun for defensive purposes.

I was as big a skeptic as anyone until hearing a friend's reports regarding his Taurus Judge 410 and checking online reviews of these things.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts and have a more open mind than ya might know by reading the above. I'm not trying to talk myself into anything.

Best regards, Skychief

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:50 am

Only thing I'd add is that the .410 in a derringer-type handgun would probably be great for snakes, but after that, other options as stated are better for other "critters"...

Trailboss · Post by **Trailboss** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:36 pm

I am the original purchaser of one of the first stainless steel American Derringer Company 45 Colt/410 pistols ever made. I paid $110 for it from the factory and have carried it off and on for about 40 years. That company is long gone or is now known as Bond.

I've fired 45 Colt, 410 Shot, 410 Buckshot and 410 Slugs out of it with good results. It's taken rabbits, squirrels and grouse when the range is kept to 25 feet max and it killed one rabid skunk at about 10 feet as it was charging. I think it was loaded with buckshot at the time. Today I have a number of quality carry choices to pick from and the 45/410 pocket rocket is part of the regular rotation.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:39 pm

Honestly, two shots for a snake gun with shot loads I'd be okay. But for anything else I'd like a primary firearm with more rounds. Though a two shot as a backup would do.

Having roamed where meth cookers and pot growers are a threat I will take a 1911 and either a twelve gauge or Springfield Scout Squad. Some of the growers are pretty well armed and figure they'll just bury you where you drop. They don't usually stay in one spot any longer than necessary.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:08 pm

I had an American Derringer in .357 years ago. It was a neat little firearm, but it seemed as heavy and bulky as my model 60 chief special. I now have a 340 J-frame in 357. 5 shots of .38 Special, 357 magnum, or shotshell is better than 2 .410 or .45 Colt. Just my personal preference. And the 340 only weighs 13 to 14 ounces.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:19 pm

vancelw wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:08 pm I had an American Derringer in .357 years ago. It was a neat little firearm, but it seemed as heavy and bulky as my model 60 chief special. I now have a 340 J-frame in 357. 5 shots of .38 Special, 357 magnum, or shotshell is better than 2 .410 or .45 Colt. Just my personal preference. And the 340 only weighs 13 to 14 ounces.

That little bugga is not user-friendly with a full house 357 load

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:51 pm

I think your J frames would be much more useful all around than the gun in question, and pretty darned easy to carry and fairly easy to shoot decently well with proper grips.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:29 pm

Trailboss wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:36 pmI've fired 45 Colt, 410 Shot, 410 Buckshot and 410 Slugs out of it with good results. It's taken rabbits, squirrels and grouse when the range is kept to 25 feet max and it killed one rabid skunk at about 10 feet as it was charging.

Now that is pretty awesome, gotta admit...!

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:52 pm

Bonds are no where near as small as a Remington derringer. It's compact but not tiny. I haven't shot one but they seem well made and are highly regarded. That said, there are better choices for self defense against armed men. It may work fine on canines at very close range. Remember these are very short rifled barrels. They aren't going to have the power or pattern quality of even a run of the mill 410 shotgun. Also you have two shots, and have to cock the hammer for each.

It might be fun to mess with though. If I did, I would probably skip the 410 pistol (not sold on the concept) and get a 357, 44special, or 45 acp.

I have only shot one derringer, a cheap Davis in 38 Special. It kicked quite a bit but the bottom barrel hit to the sights. The top hit a few inches high. A sheet of notebook paper was in serious trouble at typical handgun ranges. I was a very young man at the time, but I was very impressed at what this $80 zinc alloy double barrel would do. The Bond is a much higher quality gun with better sights, materials and ergonomics.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:01 am

My Bond as a EDC. 45/410

piller · Post by **piller** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:30 am

I have a single barrel derringer from a kit in .45 Colt/.410 2 1/2 inch shotshell. I have patterned it on cardboard. Up to 20 feet it seems to have enough pellets close enough together for snake work. I haven't used it on anything but targets. I have an NAA Mini with both cylinders. The .22 Mag shotshells have been used on a rattlesnake one time. It was a 10 or 11 inch snake and I scared it where it couldn't back away. At less than 1 step away, it was pretty messed up by the shot. I was glad to have the extra rounds in case he had friends around.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:09 pm

As a backup to a real gun with more cartridge capacity, it might be OK. But no derringer is a good choice with only two shots. I sometimes carry my old Hi Standard .22 Magnum derringer as a backup to another gun.

jp · Post by jp » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:04 pm

Anyone ever chrono one of these?

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:23 pm

For 410 rounds I carry only the Self Defense rounds made by Winchester, Federal, and such. For Snakes, etc. I use the Remington # 5 & 6 shot. I also load an all brass 410 Mag-Tec shell with # 4 buck shot over a nice portion of 3F Goex Black Powder.
The 45 Colt round I carry is the Hornady Critical Defense 45 Colt 180 gr. Or, my hand loaded 45 Colt 250 gr. LSWC, over a very compressed portion of 3F Goex Black Powder, and a tight roll crimp.

BTW; The Winchester 410 3" Self Defense load is Duplex, Shot & Disks. The Federal load is a 2 1/2" 000 Buck.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:26 pm

BlaineG wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:19 pm
vancelw wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:08 pm I had an American Derringer in .357 years ago. It was a neat little firearm, but it seemed as heavy and bulky as my model 60 chief special. I now have a 340 J-frame in 357. 5 shots of .38 Special, 357 magnum, or shotshell is better than 2 .410 or .45 Colt. Just my personal preference. And the 340 only weighs 13 to 14 ounces.
That little bugga is not user-friendly with a full house 357 load

You know, I was thinking about that when I posted, but I don't remember it being that bad. I do, however, remember the fireball that came out when I shot it at dusk once....once
But that Derringer was not as brutal as my S&W 340!

J35 · Post by **J35** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:04 pm

No experience with .410 handguns, But have a lot of experience loading for a Mossberg pump.

A 444 case will comfortably hold two .390 round balls and a Magtech 2 1/2" brass will hold three with a nice wad column.

If I was going to carry a .410 handgun for protection one of the above loads would be in the chambers.

--------J

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:13 am

I have loaded the .390" round balls, My preference is the #4 buck shot, a few more pellets. #4 buck is close to 25 caliber.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:03 am

My dos centavos -
I owned a Hi Standard .22 Mag Derringer;
A standard .38 Special over/under job;
And a cheap 4 barreled .22 LR hideout gun.

At 5 feet I could rely on them hitting the target, but by that time I reckoned it is too late, anyway.

For a short time I carried the .38 two-shot in a clip holster inside the top of my boot as a last ditch hideout gun. Then I discovered that a .380, then even a J Frame 6 shot .38 Special fit just as well.

None of the derringers allowed me to quickly acquire a target with any accuracy. I sold or traded them all, never missed them.

How about a nice, tiny SW Shield 9mm with some modern hot and deadly hollow points? Inside a boot, on an ankle, kidney carry or even in many pockets, it fits. And now there is a .45 ACP Shield for those who want more diameter on target.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:57 am

I "stole" an almost new American Derringer in 357 Mag just the other week. Heading to the range anyway today so going to try it out, range report to follow

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:21 am

I also agree with the others with the J-Frame 38/357s. Other than only having two rounds I would not want to depend on the penetration of a 410 buckshot to stop someone especially out of a pistol. I generally carry a Glock 19 (mid size 9mm) with a reload when off duty. Will be carrying a Smith and Wesson Mdl 37 as a back up on duty before too long. Another thing to consider when dealing with a threat that is under the influence of narcotics is that they are generally alot harder to stop than one that isn't. I still remember reading in Jim Cirillo's book "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" of guys taking one or two hits from a 12 gauge with 00 buck and in one case even a slug and them getting up and taking off running (unknown if they were under the influence of anything). A person can take alot of damage and still pose a threat and I definitely would want more than two rounds of anything let alone a 410 buckshot round to save my hide.

RustyJr

Dave James · Post by **Dave James** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:38 am

Have owned a couple over the years, American Arms, High Standard and a Bond or two, they where real handy for UC work years ago, didn't scream cop at those I was around who also carried, Maybe not the best for SD use, but they served a purpose, and back then when loaded up wit shot and hand loaded buck, they where some thing to be reckoned with. When back in uniform always had a pair of High Standard 22mag's on me one in the vest pocket most days and the other in a wallet holster.

Now a days the only one left is a Bond, and its my anti highjack gun for the truck. CCW now is normally a semi-auto of some flavor

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:26 am

I do own a Davis D38 derringer in .38 Special, which I carry as a back-up, or when it is so bloody hot and humid down here that I am in a tee-shirt and shorts (with little ability to conceal anything). I actually purchased it though more from a nostalgia standpoint, since the action is pretty much identical to the original's in .41 rimfire. Granted, I could carry one of the many pocket plastic wonders now available, but I've never been thrilled with any of those...

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:02 pm

Borregos wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:57 am I "stole" an almost new American Derringer in 357 Mag just the other week. Heading to the range anyway today so going to try it out, range report to follow

Wear some gloves.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:28 pm

In a few Weeks I will own a 9mm Bond Bullpup. The Deringer will be for the vehicle.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:00 pm

Lefty Dude wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:28 pm In a few Weeks I will own a 9mm Bond Bullpup. The Deringer will be for the vehicle.

Now THAT makes sense - 9 mm Luger +P pistol, 7 rounds, 17.5 oz., 5.1" long, 4.2" tall, only 0.96" wide.
Close to S&W Shield, although Shield 9mm +P pistol is less expensive:
8+1 rounds (or extended 10 round mag), 19.0 oz, 6.1" long, 4.6" tall, only .94" wide; 3.1" barrel.
Yes, I have become a Shield fanatic.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:51 pm

I like the Shield also, however having Arthritis in my Right Hand and thumb and being Left handed with a ruptured thump tendon. I can not rack the slide of a Shield, 1911 or my Browning HP, which I just Sold.
The Bond Bullpup design has a much lighter Slide which I can handle.

As you get older you must adapt, or go defenseless. I will be 79 in May.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:52 pm

Very relevant to some of us, Lefty. The slide is indeed hard to rack, which is part of the reason that recoil seems to be so light for the size of the gun.

Skychief · Post by **Skychief** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:57 pm

Guess who found a meth "lab" while working in the woods yesterday.

Has me really considering my options to say the least. I appreciate all the feedback guys.

I have a question, not pointed at anyone in particular. I've read here and other places that some long in the tooth, knowledgeable guys view the Bond 410s as worthy guns carried in a vehicle. Why is this? If trying to stop an assailant at close range, how does it matter if a guy is in his vehicle or out in the middle of nowhere?

Thanks again and best regards, Skychief

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:19 am

I like my Bond, and will continue to carry the piece. In the Holster I have I can carry the piece in many position. In my Jean pocket the Holster shows no print.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:25 pm

Bond just came out with their 6" barreled "Texan". I kind of like it. Though I'd have little use for it here in Hawai'i I think I'd make a dandy snake charmer or a canoe gun loaded with bird shot. A couple rounds of 45 Colt in the chamber and you're loaded for boar. I don't think I'd ever buy one but if one were ever gifted to me I'd be happy even if just for the novelty factor. Can you have too many guns.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:21 pm

JohndeFresno wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:02 pm
Borregos wrote: ↑Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:57 am I "stole" an almost new American Derringer in 357 Mag just the other week. Heading to the range anyway today so going to try it out, range report to follow
Wear some gloves.

Good advice!!
The result of shooting a few barrels at 10 yards did not result in anything you could call a group

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:37 pm

I like the 4" snake slayer myself.....but too many $$$