U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Old No7
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3572
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:06 pm
Location: Southern Maine

U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Old No7 »

Many of these Aegis class destroyers are made here in Bath, Maine.

Guys that I know who have helped build them say they: "Have the most advanced radar systems in the fleet".

Well, if all that's true............

Then how DOES THIS HAPPEN ? ? ? (click for link)

I just don't get it... :?:

Old No7

USS Fitzgerald.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Freedom and the Second Amendment... One cannot exist without the other." © 2000 DTH
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Old Ironsights »

How does it happen?

Captains and Subordinates ignoring the Electronics and forgetting the fundamentals of Physics.

Objects in motion tend to stay in motion.

They collided for the same reasons that Trains hit cars on crossings that are over a mile away when the arms go down....

You can't stop a Train... or a Ship... without a LOT of either energy OR Space & Time.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
User avatar
Carlsen Highway
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Carlsen Highway »

Probably nothing to do with radar or physics, There should have been a watch on the bridge of both vessels, watching for exactly this thing, both will have more than enough radar for detecting each other and avoiding any sort of collision.

There may be more to the story, if the Navy ship was doing some operational training thing at night, using a container ship as a dummy, then this sort of thing is possible if someone made a stupid mistake. Two ships dont just collide at night, because no one was looking at their radar.

It is telling the amount of damage that has been done to the Navy vessel, and that it is amidships. The container vessel will be comparatively undamaged, because it would have struck bow first into the Navy ship.
Modern Navy ships are built thin and fragile, so that missles will go straight through them. Container ships are built like tanks by comparison, even though they are essentially just an empty floating shell.

I have seen this once before. A very large container ship hit an American destroyer in the Gulf during the first gulf war. It hit the destroyer amidships, with much the same result in the incident above. It was caused because the destroyer captain for some reason was sailing in circles round the container ship. He misjudged his circle and speed, and the bow of the container ship nearly cut him in half. When I was on board the container ship, the vessel's (British) officers were having drinks to celebrate the news that the American destroyer had been finally been repaired. It had taken three years. The container ship had needed some paint.

I expect that a something similar happened here. I doubt very much that they simply drive straight into each other innocently. That destroyer was up to something.

Be assured that regardless of whether the Captains of either vessel were on watch that night, or whose fault it actually is, both of them will be fired, and neither of them will be a Captain of a ship ever again.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
A person who carries a cat home by the tail, will receive information that will always be useful to them.
Mark Twain
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Griff »

+1 Carlsen.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

How does it happen ?? Statistically speaking, it has to, eventually, because the math says so.

With that bit of humor aside, I'll speak from the vantage point of the Junior Officer Of The Deck and Officer Of The Deck that I used to be, with two Westpac's and three typhoons on my scorecard.
........ Merchant sailors were/are notorious for setting Cruise Control (called Iron Mike) and going to bed. Since "everybody" knows it, the average person would say, "Gee, I'll do everything I can to stay outta that guy's way." So contrast that with the (expletive deleted) drivers on the SoCal freeways who, at 70 mph, are 10 feet aft of your bumper. "Everybody is doing it" is the favorite excuse for such gross stupidity. In other words, the driver is too stupid to drive safely. And the driver of the car being tailgated, he is too stupid to get the (expletive) outta the way. SO, those two boneheads (tailgater & tailgatee) get into an ego contest that feeds upon "stupid." One guy won't back off, the other guy won't step aside. Extremis (and fun to watch) when the tailgatee says "that is enough" and slams on the brakes (i.e, a brake check).

OK, now back to the high seas. I was standing right there on numerous occasions when the Commanding Officer's ego would not let him permit the OOD to do a simple early-on "independent maneuver" to avoid a freighter. It was not until extremis that the (expletive) CO finally relented because, had he not, collision would have occurred, and both the CIC Watch Officer and I were in full agreement ...... and the avoidance maneuver was very fast and sharp. It could have been a gentle and slight move, but nnnnnoooooo ...... Stupid, but I saw it, and such was not only on my ship, my classmates on other ships told many similar stories.
...... SO, Reason #1: the CO is a head case.
Last edited by new pig hunter on Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rusty
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9528
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:37 pm
Location: Central Fla

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Rusty »

That's funny, we just had a safety meeting this week at work and the final word was, in all cases yield the right of way. Hauling freight is hauling freight if it's in a C-130, an 18 wheeler, or a container ship.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9

It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
User avatar
Carlsen Highway
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:23 am
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Carlsen Highway »

After 20 years in the shipping business, I can tell you that crew on container ships do not, ever, set the auto-pilot, and then go to bed. Jobs are highly sought after, competitive, there is a lot of seatime and study in a navigation officers position, and they can be fired for anything at all. (Apart from the fact they would go to prison if something like the above happened.)
A person who carries a cat home by the tail, will receive information that will always be useful to them.
Mark Twain
1894c

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by 1894c »

prayers sent for the missing and the injured... :(
User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9938
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by GunnyMack »

My nephew was on the USS ROSS for about 6 years. They were returning from Bermuda to Virginia during a storm, high seas and whoever was in command during the night decided they wanted to get home sooner than safer. Long story short high seas excessive speed darn near ripped the bow section off the ship. He did not re-up after that.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
Pisgah
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1797
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:01 pm
Location: SC

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Pisgah »

Well, see, it was a Romulan container ship with their secret cloaking device...
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

Carlsen Highway,

You are of course absolutely correct, container ship crews don't set the auto-pilot and go to bed. (I just like the dramatic effect of the statement).

My comment was incorrect, BUT, on the the other hand, I never ever saw a container ship maneuver to avoid ..... ever. SO, my comment only has "validity" in the sense that we shipdrivers were of the opinion that there were no watchstanders on the bridge of the container ship. And if there were watchstanders, well, they weren't going to do anything for a Navy ship because they know a Navy ship is going to get scared and get outta the way, because that's what Navy ships do.


Here's another OOD Tale and Reason #2 ..... and please do recognize: the last time I stood an OOD watch was literally 40 years ago, and believe me, some things just never change for the better in the Navy. Ask my contemporaries who are now retired O-5's and O-6's.
...... SO, at night the Navy ship CO is asleep. Prior to bagging out he writes Night Orders. Depending upon the CO (i.e., is he a head case or not), he might (and I say that very very tentatively) allow the OOD to maneuver very slightly if necessary. But in general, the CO does not write into the Night Orders to change course. Rather, it is specific to maintain course and speed as directed by the Navigator. One very "funny" (i.e, treacherous) yet well-meaning comment in the Night Orders, the CO writes, "if in doubt, call me."
...... NOW, what self-respecting (and terrified) junior officer wants to wake up the CO in the middle of the night and get yelled at ?? "Gee, Captain, it's kinda dark out here and me & the CICWO are thinking this freighter is going to get too close, so we'd like to swing right a few degrees for awhile, then swing back left when the coast is clear." As us Navy old-timers can say, "well, back in my day ......" We didn't want to call the CO for nothing because we knew we'd get ripped again ..... but the bigger "flaw" would be a loss of confidence by the CO in the JO's ability to do anything right, and that gets written into one's fitness report. In other words, there were times when, for the JO, it was most definitely a lose-lose situation. And THAT is the true recipe for a disaster such as a collision at sea in the middle of the night .... and daytime too. That is: the OOD (in terror of a collision and bigger terror of the CO) simply waits too long to call the CO ..... I saw that happen (good thing I was only the JOOD that night).

Fun stuff ...... from which nightmares begin .... and flashbacks continue.
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by earlmck »

new pig hunter wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:41 pm Stupid, but I saw it, and such was not only on my ship, my classmates on other ships told many similar stories.
...... SO, Reason #1: the CO is a head case.
Thanks for the perspective, pig hunter. I guess I was lucky never to have served on a ship run by a "head case". So this old Navy guy was right in there with No.7 thinking "How the H does that happen???"
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

earl,

The concept of the CO being a "head case" is all too valid, and still is. One of my active duty shipmates (and a good friend to this day), his older brother was what is called a Screamer. There was no pleasing the guy and he screamed at everything, just to scream. When his JO did something right, he screamed. When the JO did something wrong, he screamed. The guy had 2 buttons: Silent or Scream ..... not much in-between. Always critical of everything.
...... We always thought of it as hazing, in that the CO got hazed when he was a JO, and now it is his turn to get even.

So it didn't matter that you as the OOD were interested in avoiding a collision and not killing people. That's got nothing to do with it. Rather, a collision was the more desireable choice than another CO scream session.
...... did I ever tell you about the time the XO was standing right next to me and watched me get chewed out by the CO for doing the right thing ?? Yep, made the XO "proud" to see such Good Naval Leadership in practice.
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

I'm enjoying this post .... Here's the scenario that my practiced eye sees in the two pictures below:
..... note that the damage is to the starboard (right) side of the Navy ship, and the port (left) side of the merchant. What I am seeing in my mind is the classic Crossing scenario.

...... Get out a piece of notebook paper and a writing instrument. Now, place the merchant ship at the top of the paper at the right-hand margin, and the merchant is travelling from right to left. At the bottom center of the paper place the Navy ship, travelling up. Thus, where those two lines of travel intersect, there will be your point of collision. Simple enough.
....... Let us now consider the International Rules Of The Road (IROTR). They specifically state that in this scenario, the Merchant has the Responsibility to maintain course and speed !! By Law, it cannot maneuver.
....... THUS, the burdened vessel is the Navy ship which, by Law, is required to maneuver to avoid the collision.
....... Study those 2 lines of travel and you will see that the Navy ship always has it's starboard side visible to the merchant. This means, as I said, the Navy ship is the burdened vessel in accordance with the IROTR and must avoid the collision.

SO, when I look at the starboard-side damage to the Navy ship, and the port-side bow damage to the merchant, I see that the (expletive) Navy ship crossed the bow of the merchant ship and got hit. Simple As That. They "deserved" it for being so stupid. The Navy ship failed in it's responsibilities as directed in the IROTR and is therefore 100% at fault.
....... That is what I see, and what I see is a violation of the unwritten rule of the sea: do not EVER cross the bow (i.e, drive your ship in front of another ship) of another ship. You maneuver to go behind. And, you do NOT speed up so that you can sneak past in front.

NOW, was I standing there watching this happen ?? Of course not. Do I have the experience to make the call on this one ?? You betcha. And what I see is a classic example of "failure to yield the right of way."
........ Heck, maybe that Navy bridge watch team had set the autopilot and were lighting the candles on a birthday cake & serving-up the ice cream and nobody was paying any attention to anything external ...... and had the bitch box volume turned way down so they couldn't hear CIC yelling about the heart-stopping Constant Bearing Decreasing Range (CBDR) situation ......

So I am definitely in the camp of "how in the H did this happen ??" The scenario is so straightforward and textbook ...... and it happened just like the textbook said it would. I can't wait to find out what the court of inquiry has to say ......

Image

Image
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Old Ironsights »

new pig hunter wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:57 pm I'm enjoying this post .... Here's the scenario that my practiced eye sees in the two pictures below:
..... note that the damage is to the starboard (right) side of the Navy ship, and the port (left) side of the merchant. What I am seeing in my mind is the classic Crossing scenario. ...

NOW, was I standing there watching this happen ?? Of course not. Do I have the experience to make the call on this one ?? You betcha. And what I see is a classic example of "failure to yield the right of way."
........ Heck, maybe that Navy bridge watch team had set the autopilot and were lighting the candles on a birthday cake & serving-up the ice cream and nobody was paying any attention to anything external ...... and had the bitch box volume turned way down so they couldn't hear CIC yelling about the heart-stopping Constant Bearing Decreasing Range (CBDR) situation ......

So I am definitely in the camp of "how in the H did this happen ??" The scenario is so straightforward and textbook ...... and it happened just like the textbook said it would. I can't wait to find out what the court of inquiry has to say ......
Yep. Physics in action (and helm inaction). Don't listen to your electronics and don't steer to evade the bigger, less maneuverable vessel. Inevitable.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
J35
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:11 pm

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by J35 »

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Online ... sh-ind.htm

My father was aboard the BB56 when this happened

---------J
Keep The Peace, Love and Harmony, These are the Gold Nuggets, All Else Is Sand !!
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by jeepnik »

When I was working at the shipyard we were just about finished with a refit of an FFG. An old, as in WWII era, tanker coming down the main channel lost steering gear control. The rudder went hard over and it tore through the end of a floating drydock, part of a pier and then into the bow of the FFG. It was another six months before the ship finished her refit sea trials. The biggest thing was that it darned near tore off the sonar dome on the bow. It more or less just scrapped a layer of rust off of the tanker.

The tanker was basically condemned by the Coasties and ended up tied up to one our unused piers until the yard closed.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

an excerpt from the New York Times ....
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/17/worl ... .html?_r=0

Sean P. Tortora, a veteran merchant marine captain and consultant who said he had sailed through the area of the collision many times, said that evidence suggested the Fitzgerald was at fault.

Captain Tortora described the collision as a “T-bone” in which the bow of the Crystal hit the starboard side of the Fitzgerald. “From what I’ve seen, the Fitzgerald should have given way and passed to the stern of the container ship,” he said.

He added that a common cause of collisions, at sea or on the simulators used for training, is a misjudgment of distance and speed on the part of a captain trying to cross in front of another vessel. “They think they can make it and they make a run for it,” Captain Tortora said.
User avatar
Old No7
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3572
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:06 pm
Location: Southern Maine

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Old No7 »

30-30 wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:02 am prayers sent for the missing and the injured... :(
Good point. I was negligent by not including that sentiment in my original posting; please forgive me.

Prayers up for the souls and families of those lost from this accident.

Old No7
"Freedom and the Second Amendment... One cannot exist without the other." © 2000 DTH
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6831
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by jeepnik »

new pig hunter wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:40 pm an excerpt from the New York Times ....
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/17/worl ... .html?_r=0

Sean P. Tortora, a veteran merchant marine captain and consultant who said he had sailed through the area of the collision many times, said that evidence suggested the Fitzgerald was at fault.

Captain Tortora described the collision as a “T-bone” in which the bow of the Crystal hit the starboard side of the Fitzgerald. “From what I’ve seen, the Fitzgerald should have given way and passed to the stern of the container ship,” he said.

He added that a common cause of collisions, at sea or on the simulators used for training, is a misjudgment of distance and speed on the part of a captain trying to cross in front of another vessel. “They think they can make it and they make a run for it,” Captain Tortora said.
Maybe the Navy captain was trying to cross the container ships "T". Not really needed to day, but once it was the ultimate ship to ship combat maneuver.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
Larkbill
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: St Peters, Mo.

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Larkbill »

Heard on one of the news programs that the CO was one of the injured, was in his cabin which was close to the point of impact.

Definitely looks like a classic failure to yield.

Prayers for all involved and their families.
___________________________________________________________________
I'm not paranoid because I carry a gun. Why should I be paranoid. I've got a gun.
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

The CO in his cabin upon impact ?????????? What, the OOD is afraid to call the CO ????? OOD and JOOD texting ????? Radars off ????? Starboard lookout asleep .... or texting ????? The signalman on the signal bridge sees nothing ?????

1 minute from impact, and the starboard lookout doesn't see the running lights on the merchant ???? Or maybe even the outline of the merchant itself, pointed right at him ???

Over on the merchant, assuming there is actually a watchstander on the bridge: does he see the Navy ship ???? And the guy isn't sounding the ship's whistle ?? And the guy isn't calling his own CO to get up to the bridge ?????

And neither ship is talking to each other on the radio ??????
wecsoger
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:40 am

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by wecsoger »

Of course all second guessing here...

One report said the container ship did a set of erratic maneuvers, and reversed course before the collision, one of the stories here:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/seven-u-s- ... 1497750366

But it was in a hugely busy sea lane, so I'm guessing it's got running lights by the dozens...yet no one on watch sounded a collision alarm?

Captain was sacked out (and nearly killed), yet once the Crystal got hinky and changed course, no one thought to wake him?

It's not that the Crystal would have been invisible either to the eye, or on radar. (yes, I know it was 2am - running lights?)

Fitz is capable of running rings around that cargo-er so ultimately it's their fault, both in right-of-way and right-of-weight.

Shame, we lost good people, multiple careers are ruined, even if they may not have been directly involved and couple hundred mil or more in repairs.

edited to add, I'd be talking to the port where the Crystal is docking to have either the whole crew or at least all command and that bridge crew held in investigative custody before someone may disappear into China, the mideast, etc.
rabbit hunter
Levergunner
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:08 am

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by rabbit hunter »

Well, regardless of the cause or the circumstance, the navy captain's career is finished. I don't think there is any possibility of recovery from this on his record. That's just the way it is in peace time. Of course, being a ground pounder, I have immense experience in the goings on at sea.
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Seven sailors killed. What a darned shame.
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Griff »

It would be a weird set of circumstances for the Fitzgerarld NOT be at fault. Standard Rules of Navigation state that if both vessels are under power, the larger vessel (generally the less maneuverable), has the right of way. Being a US Navy Destroyer doesn't negate that. Nor do a Captain's night orders. The Duty OOD has those seven sailor's lives on his head.

If the CO was in his sea cabin, I doubt any "training" was going on. And I doubt any CO I ever had was a "type B" personality. They were however, different shades of "aggressive"... none to the point of being even a minor Quigg. XO's are a different story. But, in the final analysis, IMO, there are a thousand things that can "cause" a collision at sea, and that increases exponentially the closer to port one gets. Especially one as busy as Yokosuka.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2823
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
m.A.g.a. !
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

I just found a website discussing the incident.
http://forum.gcaptain.com/t/uss-fitzger ... n/45129/11

Based on a couple of comments I found, I'm going to change my own personal idea of what happened. And this is so mind-boggling I still cannot get my head around it.
  • the merchant is way astern of the Navy ship, and off the starboard (right) quarter of Navy.
    -- the merchant speed is much greater than Navy, and is thus catching up. This is called "overtaking" and therefore the merchant is now the burdened vessel.
    -- the merchant is on autopilot as normal. Nobody is on the bridge to see the developing CBDR collision situation. ------- Or if there is someone on the bridge, they do nothing.
    -- the merchant approaches Navy on the right-hand side, impacts, and being on autopilot, continues.
    -- somebody on the merchant feels the collision and goes to the bridge, disengages the autopilot, and makes the 180-degree turn west to go back and find out what happened.
Now, continuing to assume this is actually what happened, what continues to be so unbelievably mind-boggling is that NO ONE on the Navy ship saw the merchant approaching, either on radar or visually. Back in my day we had a lookout on the stern, thus it is "logical" he would have seen the merchant making it's approach. Thus the aft lookout would be standing there looking up at the port bow of the merchant towering over him just a few dozens of feet away, getting closer and closer and closer ...... and the aft lookout does absolutely nothing except continue to stare.

And way way up above in my first post I offered my observation that us OOD's always believed no one was on the bridge of a merchant. That of course makes no sense unless of course a merchant is steaming in the middle of the ocean where you might not see another ship for few days.
------ BUT, in this location, and reading many reports, this particular area of the ocean, close to land, has lots of ship traffic, thus prudence dictates that someone be on the merchant bridge at all times. Conjecture of course, but a reasonable assumption.

I know less-then-nothing about navigation system electronics on a merchant, but I would like to think there is an Impending Collision alarm that will start SCREAMING LOUDLY with LIGHTS BLINKING ...... so if there is such an alarm system, then whoever was standing on that merchant bridge was being assaulted by LOUD Sounds and Blinking lights warning of CBDR. Thus that person ignored that and did nothing ...... which would indicate there was no one on the bridge of the merchant, because "logically" he would have done something other than ignore everything.


AND, I'll offer my own personal OOD perspective on XO's ..... I never ever let that guy interfere with anything on my bridge. He was of course welcome to visit, but he was never allowed to interfere or override any decision I made. Only the CO could do that. Navy Regs say that: when underway it is the OOD who is the #2 man on the ship. The OOD is the direct representative of the CO for the safe navigation of the ship, thus the OOD answers only to the CO.
--- The function of the XO is to be the king of paperwork, his job is to make the ship's daily routine function. The XO's job has nothing to do with driving the ship while underway.
--- I certainly had the XO on the bridge a few times, and he certainly offered some well-seasoned advice, but the final decision belonged to the OOD.
--- Thus it didn't matter if the XO was a bigger head case than the CO, I consider myself very very very lucky that my XO's never tried to interfere during my OOD watches.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Blaine »

Look at a diagram of the merchant ship's course. They were past the Fitz and did a U Turn to engage them. I expect this to be proven a deliberate attack. Perhaps the Fitz crew could have been more on the ball.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

Here is an excellent article with plenty of info about "what is happening" on a Navy ship and on a merchant ship.

http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-fault
cjensen
Levergunner
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by cjensen »

User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Blaine »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:23 am Seven sailors killed. What a darned shame.
I caught a glimpse of a story that the seven that could not be found were behind waterproof doors that were locked on purpose to save the ship? I have no idea about this statement whatsoever, but I did see it in print. If so I imagine it's not the first time that's happened.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2823
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2823
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Ray »

Deleted.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
m.A.g.a. !
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Griff »

Ray wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:53 pm After the fire party on-scene leader sets a watch over a secured door, hatch, or scuttle due to fire or flood then it cannot be opened even for pleas for help from the other side....the door simply cannot be closed again against the flow of water or a wall of flame or the pressure from the heat of an intense fire.....often the volume of the next compartment or space in the progression of the flood would be large enough to compromise the structural integrity of the ship if flooded......
This ↑↑↑.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
wecsoger
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:40 am

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by wecsoger »

I see we're following the usual phases of An Unusual Incident, more so other places then here

phase 1: news and confirmation about an event

phase 2: speculation about the cause, wild and otherwise (in this phase can easily discount 80% of proposed facts)

phase 3: rumours, wild speculation and conspiracy theories.

I'm guessing a window of six months toward a year before we get the final report?
User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3423
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by earlmck »

Scooting around on a USN tin can has got to be much like riding a motorcycle in traffic: you have to assume everything out there is out to get you. So if I get creamed from behind by a semi while on a bike, the semi is at fault but I am dead. So if such a creaming happens to me I guarantee you it only happened because I was asleep at the switch.

You can't ride a bike while asleep at the switch and you can't run a tin can that way either.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry
new pig hunter
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by new pig hunter »

in Post #11 above I mentioned the OOD waking up the CO, and in Post #13 I mentioned the CO as a "screamer" .......

Here is a very interesting article written by a retired Navy officer who commanded three ships. He directly comments on the topic of getting OOD's "qualified" and what that really means, and how the attitude of the CO will affect any situation .....
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... gets-small
Gaucho Gringo
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:05 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by Gaucho Gringo »

At least it didn't get hit by the Queen Mary. In WW2 she cut a British cruiser in half with very minor damage to her. She didn't even stop until she got to England
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31933
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: U.S. Navy Collision... How does THAT happen???

Post by AJMD429 »

Then there's this guy's take on it....

https://youtu.be/d_F2V16-w9g
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Post Reply