O.T. Arkansas Timber question

[slimster]

Just got through reading the Arkansaw thread and figured that with all the smarts on this forum I could find the help I need. I have a 60 acre property that I bought in 1986. It had just been select cut for trees over 16 inches. After 21 years, I would think there would be plenty of marketable timber once again. If I could realize a decent amount of profit I would be able to start my own business. Anybody have any Ideas on how to go about this and how much I could expect to make? Oh yeah It' about 95% wooded in mostly oak with some other hardwoods such as Walnut and Hickory with a couple of copses of Red Cedar. I would say the majority is 15+ inch trees. I realize there are a lot of variables here, but any Ideas would be appreciated. Thanks guys!

[stew71]

If it were me, I'd first start looking around for a local market for your raw timber to see if it's even profitable. You'll need to find a local mill that can process the logs. With fuel prices so high, timber companies prefer to find sources as close as possible to the mill to limit trucking costs. Secondly, I'd hire a professional forester to come out and do a survey of the property and determine how many board feet of each species is available for cutting. That'll give you a good idea as to whether its going to be worth cutting from their standpoint. Contact a local timber company or lumber mill and they should be able to point you to someone who manages the buying of raw logs and then pick their brains for information. You never know, they may jump at the chance.

I don't know about the state laws down there, but you'll quickly learn all about the various federal environmental regulations that you'd need to address first before starting up a commercial logging operation. Things will be even more complicated if you have any streams, creeks, riparian habitat or endangered species on the property. I'm sure things have changed since it was last logged in the 80's, so I'd check with the local US Forest Service office about that.

[GoatGuy]

Check with the County Extension Office in Fulton Co. They should be able to point you in the right direction to get the info you need. Were you referring to starting your own company and cutting the timber yourself, or finding some timber cutters to do it and pay you for the timber harvested?

[lever-4-life]

I worked as a timber faller for quite a while, until the spotted owl put my company out of business. The best thing you can do is locate a local forester to conduct proper timber cruses and plots, by western standards 60 acres is not a profitable job for most outfits. The company I work for from time to time specializes in small jobs such as yours. This being said I have only harvested softwoods like pine, fir, and cedar. The type of logging I do is more reliant on the hight and D.B.H. of trees than the D.B.H. alone. I dont know what a cord of oak fire wood runs for down your way but around here it is about $300, many people that have hardwood stands in my area go into the fire wood business on their own and do quite well.

[slimster]

Thanks for the info so far gentlemen. Goat Guy, I'm definitely looking to have a timber company do the logging, as I don't know the first thing about felling trees and I'm still too young to die. in my opinion! I would use the profit to start another type of business. The hunting place is not in Fulton Co., but in neighboring Sharp Co., but I guess I could find the same service at their Extension Office. I just have heard so many different numbers from so many "my brother, my sister's husband, my boss's wife" had his/hers timbered and got xxx amt. of dollars I don't know what figures are closest to accurate. I mean people have quoted anything from 500 to 2500+ per acre for similar select timbering contracts (I'm not interested in having it clear cut but selling the larger trees over 15-16 inches and letting the small stuff grow again). Wow if any of those numbers are even close to accurate then I wish I could have bought a lot more of that property for 200 an acre back in 1986.

[GoatGuy]

Yeah, that would have been a good thing. We're about ready to close on 12 acres that adjoins us for more than $5k an acre, and that's down from $9+k per the sellers were asking a 1 year and 1/2 ago!!! Where's all that cheap land gone?

[geobru]

I spent much of the last thirty years cruising and appraising timber stands in the northwest, but I also worked in Minnesota for a few years and have friends who are in the business in Arkansas. This is NOT the year to log your timber because logs markets are way down throughout the country due to the economy. When housing starts are down like they are now, log prices are down too. You have one shot at making the most you can on this project, and timing is critical. When times are tough, mills sometimes limit deliveries because they really don't want large inventories of logs. In good times, it can be "bring it on baby, we want your logs."

That said, this is an excellent time to find out what has to be done to get ready to log the property when markets are more favorable. Definitely hire a forester to cruise the timber for you. Over the years, I have seen so many people give away their timber to unscrupulous loggers who prey on the ignorance of the landowners. Before you would sell one of your lever guns, you would do everything possible to find out what the market value is, yet people who are sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of timber shy away from paying a forester $1500 to cruise and appraise their timber! A forester can do as much or as little of the work as you wish. They can cruise the timber, recommend loggers, supervise the logging, recommend the best markets for your wood, replant, and do what has to be done. The trick is to find a good forester that has a good reputation and has been in business for a while. There are a LOT of consulting forester in the southeast, but a good one is worth his weight in gold.

When selecting a forester, ask for references and follow up by calling people who have had them do work for them. Once you have a forester selected, they should be able to tell you where the best markets for your wood are. If the forester is a single jack and is not associated directly with a logging company, he'll be able to recommend a good logger that will do a good job for you. A poor logger reflects badly on the forester who recommended him!The forester will also be able to get you through the regulations and permitting processes that affect timber harvests, explain severence taxes, etc.

Forget about the Forest Service for information, but do go to your county extension agent if there is one, or county or state foresters if you have them. Contact the log buyers from local mills and ask tons of questions such as:

1. Can you recommend a good timber cruiser/forester who is reputable and does good work?
2. Who would you recommend as a logger to do a partial cut on your property?
3. What are the species of logs that you buy and what are the cutting specs?
4. How much are you currently paying for pulpwood and sawlogs?
4. If they don't buy all of the species that you have to sell, ask where you can take the other species. Log buyers and foresters know who buys what.

The best protection you have is to ask a lot of people a lot of questions. By talking to several log buyers you will get a view of the local markets and who the players are. This will help you to cross check your forester and at least have an idea that the information you are getting aligns with what you are hearing from the log buyers. Another source of information is company foresters that work for the large industrial timberland owners. They don't have an axe to grind and usually like to see the small guys do it right.

Good luck in your preparations. Just don't get in a big hurry right now. Find out what the market is now and what it was last year so you will know what a decent price really is. (By the way, the unit of payment in the southeast is usually by the ton.) The prognosticators are predicting that log markets will probably be down for another 12 to 18 months.

George

[HEAD0001]

I have been doing what you are talking about for a lot of years. I graduated from WVU Forestry school in 1980. And I have been buying and selling small tracts of land since I graduated. There are a lot of different ways to go about what you are wanting to do. However I do not trust very many people in the timber industry. Too many people have too many fingers in the "cookie jar".

First if you do not know how much timber you have then go to the local forestry school and ask for the professor that teaches Mensuration(the measurement of timber on a particular tract). You can pay a couple of his students a few bucks and get a good "timber cruise" for a whole lot less money. And you will get a cruise from someone who does not have his "finger in the jar".

How close are you to a pulp mill?? You need to find that out.

Select cutting is not always the way to go. Especially if you want to maximize your profits. You may not like the way a clear cut looks, but normally it is the best way to go(IMO).

When I sell my timber I sell each individual log to a buyer. You can get several buyers to bid on your timber when times are good. But as stated above right now time is not good. And Oak is still down in price.

A good cutter will split the profit with you 50-50 if you deal with a separate-independent buyer. Most loggers who are associated with one or two particular mills will normally yield a lower profit to the owner.

Selling timber can be a difficult thing to do, Especialy if you do not know what you are doing. Any time you take the money up front-you are loosing money. You need to find out if you can sell the pulp in your area. That will let you know what kind of thinning to do. Get an inexpensive "cruise" done on your property. I would never pay $1500 to have my timber measured. Two students should easily be able to cruise 60 acres in an afternoon. Tom.

[rhead]

Timber prices are very depressed at the this time. Your county agent should be able to give you a list of local consulting forester in your area. A cruise for inventory and and size distrubtion is needed before a decision can be made. What you are describing doing is not a select cut it is called highgrading. A good forester can help you decide if a mark and cut, cear cut, or diameter limit cut would best fit your needs and desires for the future. He can also assist you in the marketing of the timber. He will have the trees that need to be removed marked and inventoried, and then contact several local cutters for bids. They will probably not even contact the cutter who have a history of cheating the customer. His fee for this service will probably be a percentage of the bid that you accept. You are not obligated to take the highest bid. The interested cutters will check out the site for assesability and the grades of the trees and submit bids. ( I am in south Arkansas and grow mostly pine but the low bid will tipically be half or less of the high bid. I have seen it be as much as five times as much.) Here the most common timber contract has been running 18 months to 2 years for hill pines and longer for bottom land.
Hardwood values vary greatly with size, grade and species. Tie and pallet stock on bottom and furniture grade venier stock at the top. Stastically you will have a lot more tie and pallet grade than the higher grades combined.

If you can time the sale to coinside with some of your neighbors you can both profit because the setup cost for the cutters are fixed and the bids will reflect this.

I hope some of the walnuts are venier grade and you wind up with a bid that will excede your expectations.

[HEAD0001]

Rhead I have to disagree with you just a bit. Everything you said makes sense. I agree with that part. Where is disagree is with the bidding process. Any company that bids to buy your timber before they cut it will always bid lower than the actual real value. Any one in business will do this. They will underbid because they can not control the variables up front. They will not be in business long if they do not underbid.

If the seller has an easy tract to log then the logging crew will come out ahead.

If you sell your logs on the deck then you will get the actual value of the logs that you are selling. You will come out ahead if you sell on the deck, provided you and the logger control the variables. And the logger will have an incentive to control the variables because he will also make more money with a higher deck price.

When you accept an upfront bid you loose all your bargaining chips. When you sell on the deck you can ask the buyer to write two checks. One to you, and one to the logger. Most buyers have no problem doing that, if they have a problem writing you a check then something is going on behind the scene. This way you do not have to depend on the logger to give you YOUR money. I have seen several nightmares in my life time from loggers. Do not let them do it to you. Also if the logger is willing to pay you up front, then he has definitely underbid you. Tom.

[pshort]

Howdy,
I don't have any timber to sell, but thanks for such an informative post and replies.....

Paul

[slimster]

Many, many thanks guys for all the outstanding info so far! I didn't have any idea where to start with this undertaking and am learning so much. Fortunately there is no hurry, and I have learned that it is not something that should be rushed into, so you guys have quite possibly saved me from an expensive mistake! When I bought this property in fall of 1986 it was with the understanding that any trees over 15" that the timber company wanted were subject to be removed. Since I only was paying 200 dollars an acre, (which was a bunch for this young family guy at that time), I had no problem with that. But after the timber people had come and gone in the spring of '87, I swear I wanted to cry when I saw the place. Cut tops laying everywhere, scars on standing trees and chewed up ground from the trucks and equipment, It was so different looking from the way it looked when I had closed on the property. But boy was it full of deer for the next several years! And within about 5 or 6 years, it seemed like they had never even been there. Mother Nature definitely has her ways! Anyway, as was mentioned above my best bet is to ask plenty of questions (and I seem to be quite good at that ) so if anyone has anything to add, I'm all ears. I do wish someone could provide me with a ballpark figure or range of how much money this might possibly be worth. Blessings and safe shooting to all!

[geobru]

Get an inexpensive "cruise" done on your property. I would never pay $1500 to have my timber measured. Two students should easily be able to cruise 60 acres in an afternoon.

This advice could cost you if there is a difference in the grades of logs on your tract. College kids can get you a volume number in an afternoon, but if they don't understand the difference in price of the grades of logs, and what those grades look like, you still won't know what the logs are worth. Kind of like going to the beauty school for a haircut! You need to know the volume AND the grade of the logs in order to get a value.

As far as the cost, it could be much less than $1500 depending on what you have on your place. An experienced cruiser can usually get 40 acres done in a day as a rule of thumb, depending on the terrain and brush cover.

I would expect to pay for 12 hours at $55 per hour, plus mileage to and from the unit, plus expenses if the cruiser has to stay in a motel overnight. That would be somewhere in the neigborhood of $900 to $1000 in Washington. If the oak you have is low quality, then any old cruise might do, but in this part of the country, I want my cruisers to know if there is a premium log out there that will add value. If you are dealing with lower value wood only, then you can probably get it done for $10 per hour. Youe extension agent can help you out there. GOOD LUCK!!

George

[HEAD0001]

Get an inexpensive "cruise" done on your property. I would never pay $1500 to have my timber measured. Two students should easily be able to cruise 60 acres in an afternoon.

This advice could cost you if there is a difference in the grades of logs on your tract. College kids can get you a volume number in an afternoon, but if they don't understand the difference in price of the grades of logs, and what those grades look like, you still won't know what the logs are worth. Kind of like going to the beauty school for a haircut! You need to know the volume AND the grade of the logs in order to get a value.

George

I do not mean anything personal in what I am about to say. So please accept my apology if what I say comes across wrong. However I have sold far too much timber not to reply.

No timber cruiser can give a truly accurate description of grade when the logs are on the stump. And no buyer is going to pay top dollar for veneer grade logs before he sees the whole log on the deck. At least none of the 3 or 4 dozen buyers I have dealt with. Anybody basing their appraisal on stumpage will always bid low on the stumpage. It is that simple. However if the logs are on the ground then they can bid or offer with confidence of the grade of logs. Then they can step up with a higher bid with confidence.


I have been on both sides of the fence. I have bought and I have sold timber, and logs on the deck. so I know the system is set up for the business man and not the individual owner of the logs. I really think it is that simple.

There is no doubt you can get a rough idea of grade and an accurate idea of BF and species in a cruise. And that is basically all you need as an "educated seller" Personally I would not waste the time or money with a cruise. After all what is there is there. If I did not have a lot of experience with timber I would worry more about the proper time to cut the timber, instead of wanting to know what is exactly there from a dollar standpoint. Tom.

[HEAD0001]

Slimster it is virtually impossible to give a dollar amount over the internet without seeing the tract. You value could be anywhere from $500 to $5,000(or more) per acre. Especially if you have some good grade Cherry mixed in. However the grade of Cherry can vary from anywhere between $.75 to $5.00 or $6.00 a BF. Depending on grade. And believe me no one is going to pay top grade dollars without seeing and grading the logs(not the trees) first. The value of the pulp can also help you out incredibly. You can easily make $200 to $500 an acre from the pulp. Especially when the sap is high. If the accessabilty is good then a logger should pay you at least $5 a ton or possibly even more. And when the sap is up, trees can be pretty heavy.

I do not mean to sound negative but watch your ***. And beware of anybody, and I mean anybody who could possibly have a dog in the hunt. There are a lot of kick backs in the business. I live in WV and believe me I do not have a dog in the hunt. Tom.

[slimster]

Well, I can tell already that this is not going to be a simple case of calling a few timber companies and finding the best offer of someone to come in and harvest certain trees! Thanks for setting me on the right path guys. I have learned that I should 1) Wait for the timber market to come in line. How can I determine this? Are there online sources? 2) Hire someone to BUTTS the amount and types of trees on the property. 3) Find out what all my options are. 4) Make the cutting and selling separate operations. 5) Sell the logs individually to maximize profit and also try to sell the pulp. Does this mean the sawdust and treetops? I appreciate you guys who are involved in the business sharing your knowledge for the benefit of the uninformed, and hopefully someone other than myself will find it as helpful and valuable as I have. This is what makes this forum so wonderful! And HEAD0001, that estimate was exactly what I was looking for. I realize that it is impossible to give give an accurate estimate sight unseen, but it is nice to know that those numbers that I had been hearing were not just a bunch of bull manure. Anything else anyone can add will be eagerly absorbed! Are there any resourses online that I can trust for more info, as the more that I can prepare, the better I will be able to handle the "wolves" that it looks like I will ultimately be dealing with. Thanks, Slim

[slimster]

what a sensitive censor program! the word I typed was ssess with an a in front! maybe this will get by.

[scr83jp]

Just got through reading the Arkansaw thread and figured that with all the smarts on this forum I could find the help I need. I have a 60 acre property that I bought in 1986. It had just been select cut for trees over 16 inches. After 21 years, I would think there would be plenty of marketable timber once again. If I could realize a decent amount of profit I would be able to start my own business. Anybody have any Ideas on how to go about this and how much I could expect to make? Oh yeah It' about 95% wooded in mostly oak with some other hardwoods such as Walnut and Hickory with a couple of copses of Red Cedar. I would say the majority is 15+ inch trees. I realize there are a lot of variables here, but any Ideas would be appreciated. Thanks guys!

I have friends in PA who are hardwood loggers with all of their own equipment, they a own saw mill & finish mill but with price of diesel so high & lumber so low I was told it just isn't profitable for them to cut trees at this time.

[Lastmohecken]

I have lived in Arkansas all of my life, and have been around a fair amount of logging. My dad made a deal with loggers to log or place off when I was a kid back in the 60's. I am pretty sure the deal was set up on a precentage of the harvest.

Back then, they used mules to skid the logs to a log road, where they could be loaded on the truck. I remember being very impressed with how well the mules were trained to do this job.

Later, I witnessed a neighbor's 20 acres that go logged the modern way with log skidders that hinged in the middle and really tore up the forest. IMHO they tore up, and practically ruined that 20 acres for several years. They left roads running through it, that had terrible ruts where the skidder had spun it tires, trying to get the logs out, where the mules used back in the 60's would just leave a little trail that hurt nothing. The problem was the loggers didn't relize when they took the job on, how muddy, and soft the ground can get on a typical Arkansas hillside when you start running equipment over it, in wet weather. Those ruts were 3 ft deep, might even be deeper now, due to erosion. I used to hunt down in there but havn't in years.

So, If I decided to log off an area, that I cared about, I would have somekind of agreement written up, which required a provision for leaving the place in decent shape after the loggers leave. By the way, if it's only been 30yrs, and you are talking about hardwoods, I doubt that there are that many cuttable trees, providing it was heavely logged back then. But I could be wrong.