Question about reaming a chamber 30-30 to 30-30 AI...

[O.S.O.K.]

Guys, from what I understand, it is a simple matter to ream a chamber out from standard to AI config.

My question is this: do I use a "finish" reamer for this and would this reamer do a decent job?


It's a finish reamer with fixed pilot- not live pilot. It's on inventory reduction on Midway for $80.

Basically turns a 30-30 Win into a 300 Savage - or close and you fireform factory or standard loads in the chamber to form the cases - the most practical of wildcats. Dies are also readily available.

I drill and tap, cut 45 degree angles on my muzzles, and other similar level gunsmithing - so this shouldn't be a problem...

But I've never done it and want to be sure I've got the right reamer. Once I get mine done - I'll probably offer the reamer for sale or rent....

This is too good a wildcat to pass up. I've got a new barrel kit coming from numrich and its going on my 72 win 94 that has a bad spot in it's barrel. Reaming it to 30-30 AI will allow 150 grain bullets to fly 2500 fps or better at standard 30-30 pressure levels with no other mods needed to the action.

[TedH]

That's the reamer that I used for my 30-30AI conversion. It was a very simple matter if you're a handy kind of guy. Just be sure to use plenty of oil and clean the chips off the reamer often. One stray chip of metal can leave some nasty marks in the chamber.

I use LEE dies and my best loads consist of the Speer 150 and healthy charges of RL15. I was getting good accuracy up to 2500 fps, then it began to fall apart. Best accuracy was found at 2450 fps. After a couple accuracy tuning mods to the rifle, it has turned into a real sweetheart.

This target was shot at 100 yds with a Leupold 1-4x20 scope mounted on the rifle.

[Andrew]

It sounds like it could be an easy, albeit tedious, job at home. I am curious about the fact that you don't see more of them modified. I don't think they all shoud be, by no means, just that one would think that one would see more than there are. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

[Don McDowell]

Finish reamer will work fine. Just be sure you don't get to carried away and mess up the headspace.
Before you go to grinding on that rifle, be sure and work up to max with the slowest 30-30 powders with both 150 and 170 gr bullets. Then when you get the chamber worked over all you need do is start from the previuos loads and go up another 2 grs or about 5%.
Fwiw I think RL 15 is probably the best allround powder for the ai, and I've had some fairly good results with H414 that definetly need further exploration. Ramshot Biggame gives my rifle some outstanding accuracy with the speer 170 gr bullets , altho velocity isn't anything to really get worked up about.

[Bramble]

I've never tried it with a solid pilot reamer. Call Dave Kiff at PTG and ask him. depending on where it is going to pick the cut up it may be hunting for the barrel centre if there is a long lead.

Regards

[O.S.O.K.]

Ah, thanks for the information gents. I did call Midway and ask them and they told me yep, that would do the trick.

Ted, could you please describe the correct methodology? Specifically, are you clamping the barrel in the padded vice vertically and cutting down into the chamber or horizontally? About how often do you stop and clean all the shavings off?

I have a can of Brownells do-drill oil that I'll be using - is good stuff.

I figure that a cleaning patch in the bore might be a good idea? Or not - would it be best to leave it open and flush down with something like brake cleaner each time you pull the reamer out to clean?

And as far as headspace - how do you know when to stop? Do I need a guage? If so, which one.

Thank you for the help! And BTW, that's a very nice looking 336 - looks like a KT with new wood? Very cool.

And in researching this cartridge, I came accross the load of 37 grains of IMR 3031 for a 150 grain Speer bullet - giving 2500 fps from a 20" barrel. My barrel will be 24", so maybe this will go closer to 2600... but no matter. I would be very happy with 2500.

[Andrew]

I am not an expert, but continuous flow is best I believe. You can make a coolant system out of an old bucket and rubber hose. Or you could get fancy and buy a flex-spout and pump. Prop that sucker vertical, let the oil take all the bits down into an awaiting bucket below the muzzle. If you don't have enough fluid to last until the job is done you can stop and replenish your coolant tank(bucket). Just be careful on exit/re-entry not to scratch the chamber and blow out the area with compressed air to get rid of debris before you start again.

We ream a lot of aluminum castings at work and that has always worked for us.

[TedH]

Ted, could you please describe the correct methodology? Specifically, are you clamping the barrel in the padded vice vertically and cutting down into the chamber or horizontally? About how often do you stop and clean all the shavings off?

I am by no means an expert, but I can tell you how I did it. Basically the same as Andrew stated.

Remove the bolt. Clamp the rifle vertically, use lots of oil to carry the chips down the bore. I ground down the outside of an old 3/8" extension so it would fit through the bolt channel in the action. It fit the reamer's 3/8" end perfectly and I used a tap T-handle to turn the extension. I only went one or two rounds between carefully removing the reamer and flushing away all the chips and cleaning off the reamer. There is a lip on the reamer that will set the correct headspace. When that lip reaches the current face of the chamber it's time to stop. I turned mine till I could just see a mark made in the blueing and stopped.

With the headspace set there, I can set my LEE sizing die 1/4 turn back from contacting the shell holder and resize basically just the neck. If I turn the die all the way to the shell holder I can tell that it sets the shoulder back ever so slightly.

You should have no trouble reaching 2500 fps with a 24" barrel. I was getting 2500 from my 30TK and that's just an 18.5" barrel.

[TedH]

BTW, if your looking for the highest velocity, it's RL15 closely followed by Varget. IMR 3031 was a good performer but was about 100 fps behind. The load you mentioned of 37 gr. of 3031 seems awfully hot. Generally 2-3 grains over standard 30-30 is about all you want to push it. Current IMR data shows 30.5 gr. of 3031 with a 150 gr. bullet is max for the 30-30.

[O.S.O.K.]

Thanks guys. I'll be cutting the chamber b4 screwing the barrel onto the action. Ted, thx 4 the heads up on loads - maybe start with max 30-30 load and work up watching the chrono as I go....

ETA - I guess that 37 grain load was for a TC contender or something else that can handle more pressure -that's the danger of using on-line data....

I would be very happy with 2500 fps with a 150 grain bullet - and if its easy on the brass, so much the better! I ordered a set of Lee Pacesetter dies with the reamer - not my first choice - would have preferred their nicer set. Almost went for my favrite brand nowadays - Hornady. I really like the Horn bullet seating dies but it was something like $40 more and I'm already spending too much just ask my wife!

And one more question - would light motor oil be a good flush for this? Do-drill oil is pretty pricey and I was thinking light motor oil might work very well to flush and lube... or would it be better to shoot some carb cleaner down and then apply more cutting oil? All of my previous work has been very small stuff that only requires small amounts of cutting oil.

I appreciate the help with this.

If I remember to do it, I may video the process and put it up on youtube.

Oh and Ted - I thought that was a KT - amazing that Kmart could do something so right! Did you refinsish the wood or replace it with Walnut? Looks great!

[BenT]

Keep us updated on how it turns out . I might be interested in the reamer when your done with it.

[TedH]

Oh and Ted - I thought that was a KT - amazing that Kmart could do something so right! Did you refinsish the wood or replace it with Walnut? Looks great!

Yep, it's a 30TK that I bought from a forum member a couple years ago. I converted it from a barrel band to forend cap and replaced the wood. I bought the butt stock from another forum member, but I had to make the fore end as Marlin never made that one in anything but the cheap hardwood. I am no master woodworker, but I was pretty proud of how it turned out.

[O.S.O.K.]

Thanks - really nice - excellent work on the forend there for sure!

Ben, If it works really well, I'll probably want to get another rifle (prob a 336) and do that one - then I'll probably sell it - I figure these are good for many times use...

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, I had a little time today between business trips (heading out again tomorrow...) and prepped my rifle to be ready for my return when the front-end kit will be here from Numrich. The reamer and stuff has already arrived

I took the rifle apart and decided to go ahead and remove the barrel. What a booger. It finally popped loose though and that was that. Now all I need to do is ream the new chamber and screw that barrel on and reasemble. I'm planning on using the existing buttstock but might want to get a walnut one if it doesn't stain to match. And then again, I was thinking I might do this rifle up like the wild west leverguns - trunk paint the wood and get the metal treated with something durable. I figure once it's assembled, it'll tell me what to do with it.

Oh, and I'm going to drill and tap the receiver for an XS aperture sight - I've got one in "inventory" and figure that'd probaby be the best sight for this one - or maybe the redfield....

Oh, and the Lee dies that I ordered that were listed with "loading data" actually had standard 30-30 loading data (like I need that!) and just had a note to check your loadbooks for the wildcat data - thanks a lot Lee...

[william iorg]

I left my barrel in place when I reamed my Marlin. The extension hood on the barrel will take some light cuts from the reamer as it begins to push the shoulder forward. Even going slowly and frequently cleaning the reamer it takes longer to disassemble the rifle than cut the chamber.
Here is a link to thread.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... nd+reaming

I have intended to gather all the links to .30-30AI threads that I could find but have never done it.
The search function on the Beartooth forum will bring up a lot of threads on the .30-30AI as there are a lot of shooters there. Here is a thread to get started.
The Ammo Guide also has quite a bit of load data on the .30-30AI.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... ht=30-30ai

[O.S.O.K.]

Yeah, if I wasn't replacing the barrel I wouldn't have removed the old that's for sure. It was on there quite snug!

Thanks for the information - I need to subscribe to the ammo guide....

[dgslyr]

Yeah, if I wasn't replacing the barrel I wouldn't have removed the old that's for sure. It was on there quite snug!

Thanks for the information - I need to subscribe to the ammo guide....

I 'm new here ,but been lurking for some time.I've had a 30/30 AI for over 20 years,5000 rounds or so down the tube.If I were you I would install the barrel and get the headspace set before I reamed the chamber and be really careful not to change the headspace when I reamed the chamber.When your new barrel screws in,do the sights line up straight up?Cuts in the barrel for barrel band screws?
I used to try to make mine a 300 savage,the brass didn't last long.You can turn a 20 inch barrel into a 26 inch easily.Factory ammo in my Marlin 30 AS went just over 2000 fps with 170 gr. bullets before it was rechambered.Now I get over 2200 fps with 170's,35 gr. of Varget,170 Speer.The brass lasts longer too.My gun doesn't like RE-15.Before that I used H4895 mostly.

[william iorg]

I sure like Hodgdon 4895 and H335 in the .30-30AI. Both powders meet my velocity goals and provide good accuracy. I’ve said before you could start and stop your powder search with 4895.
Have you found H4895 and H335 to be interchangeable grain for grain with your 150- and 170-grain loads?

[dgslyr]

I sure like Hodgdon 4895 and H335 in the .30-30AI. Both powders meet my velocity goals and provide good accuracy. I’ve said before you could start and stop your powder search with 4895.
Have you found H4895 and H335 to be interchangeable grain for grain with your 150- and 170-grain loads?

I haven't used much H335 in my 30/30 AI.I have used it mostly in my 444's with 300 gr. bullets.I lost a lot of my reloading notes about 10 years ago.The ones I found from 1992 only have 1 load with H335 but it is the same charge weight as the ones with H4895 from the same time.That note book has sierra .307 bullets in it for all the 30/30 loads, standard and AI.My gun shot those real well.I ran out last year and worked up a new load with speer .308's and varget.

[william iorg]

Varget is the most accurate powder I have tried in the .30-30AI. Reloder 15 gives the highest velocity with almost as good accuracy.

The Speer 170-grain bullet is my favorite for the .30-30AI and the .307 Winchester. The Speer 130-grain flat nose and the 150-grain Barnes X have given me the best accuracy overall.

There is a thread on the Campfire in which Mule Deer (John Barsness) explains that Winchester 748, Hodgdon BLc2 and Hodgdon 335 are for all practical purposes the same powder. I have seen this when using 748 and BLc2 in the .30-30AI but have not experienced this with H335. In the .30-30AI I have considered H335 to be just a little bit faster burning than 748 and BLc2. It is an interesting thing to ponder and I intend to go back and take another look as soon as I am able.


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... ost2385647

[O.S.O.K.]

dgslyr, thanks for the advice on heaspacing and such. I will most definately do that.

Anybody else have comments/adice? - nows the time!

---------------

FYI: Here's some load data for the 30-30 AI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----USE AT YOUR OWN RISK-------- Most are MAXIMUM loads

150 Remington Hodgdon H-4895
38.0 charge
2461 velocity
2018 energy
20.0 barrel length

150 Remington Alliant/Herc Reloder-15
38.0
2471
2034
20.0

150 Winchester Hodgdon Varget
40.0
2480
2049
20.0

150 Speer Hodgdon H-4895
39.9
2483
2054
20.0

150 Speer Hodgdon Varget
40.0
2492
2069
20.0

150 Remington Hodgdon BL-C(2)
40.0
2500
2082
20.0

150 Remington Hodgdon H-335
38.0
2502
2086
20.0

150 Remington Winchester 748
40.0
2508
2096
20.0

150 Remington Hodgdon H-335
39.5
2520
2116
20.0

150 Remington Hodgdon H-4895
39.0
2520
2116
20.0

150 Sierra Alliant/Herc Reloder-15
38.5
2522
2119
20.0

150 Remington Hodgdon H-335
39.5
2543
2154
20.0

150 Nosler IMR-3031
36.0
2551
2168
22.0

150 Remington ADI Benchmark-2
39.0
2552
2170
20.0

150 Sierra Alliant/Herc Reloder-15
39.0
2559
2182
22.0

150 Speer Hodgdon H-4895
39.0
2579
2216
20.0

150 Hornady Alliant/Herc Reloder-15
39.0
2581
2219
22.0

150 Remington ADI Benchmark-2
39.0
2586
2228
20.0

150 Nosler Alliant/Herc Reloder-15
39.0
2611
2271
22.0
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[reo]

Good work on the forend.

[piller]

Sounds like you are going to have a lot of fun. Hope it turns out well.

[O.S.O.K.]

Thanks - this is new territory for me. I've built AK's from kits and done a lot of simple gunsmithing jobs like drilling and tapping scope mounts, installed triggers, chamfered muzzles and such but no rechamberings... should work out good. I enjoy the process almost as much as the finished piece.

[dgslyr]

Those loads look pretty stiff to me.The velocity's looks tempting though.Those powder charges are as high as what is called for in a 300 savage and there ain't as much room.I've used loads similar to those,not quit that high but close.Got 2700 fps with 150 gr. speers fortunatly they grouped poorly or I would have probably used them.My gun don't like 150's anyway.I don't want to put that much strain on the gun now-a-days.Start with the max loads for a standard 30/30 and add 2 grs.Work up from there.Chronograph some factory stuff while your fire forming brass,you will top that easily.Fired once brass mostly splits when you try to fire form to the improved case.New brass is a lot better,still lose one once and a while though.I load fire forming stuff like I was going to hunt with it in a standard chamber.The current crop of fire forming loads have 110 gr. bullets at about 2700 fps.They can be pretty hard on a coyote.

[william iorg]

With the 20” barrel .30-30AI my velocity goals were 3,000 fps with the 100/110 grain bullets, 2,700 fps with the 125/130 grain bullets, 2,500 fps with the 150 grain bullets and 2,300 fps with the 170 grain bullets. I can exceed any of these velocities with any powder from Hodgdon 322 up through Alliant Reloder 15. For every day use I add 50 fps or a little more to the 150- and 170-grain bullets when using Hodgdon Varget and Alliant Reloder 15. The .30-30 class bullets work well on our deer at these velocities, penetrating deeply while retaining a good percentage of their weight and killing quickly. It can be pretty hot here in October and November and I must have ammunition that is interchangeable between my three .30-30AI rifles. One of the nice things about having one rifle for a wildcat is you don’t have the consideration of various rifles.

[O.S.O.K.]

fireforming - that's a topic of interest. I'm planning on loading up some new RP brass with 10 grains of Unique under some hard cast bullets. That should form the cases w/o splitting the cases don't you guys think?

[Don McDowell]

Yes that will work, but so will just loading regular 30-30 loads. Biggest thing a person has to watch with the ai cases is caving in the shoulder when seating the bullet, just a tiny bit of something out of whack and that sharp shoulder will cave into itself. That has accounted for more lost cases than anything, neck splits would probably be the second, but getting a dozen reloads hasn't been a problem.

[O.S.O.K.]

Sounds like I need to order some Imperial die wax- or is it now Remington die wax? Anyway, that stuff - and maybe be diligent with the case chamferer. More good information... thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Hornady's Unique case lube works quite well and a tub of the stuff has lasted me several years now.
If there's a case that would truly benefit from chamfering, and possibly even using a bit of a flare it'ld be the 30-30 ai.

[william iorg]

Don has it right. Don’t use Imperial Wax on the inside of your case necks.
I use both the Lyman M-die and the Lee case neck expander die on the .30-30AI. The shoulder is easy to set back slightly and bulge the case just below the shoulder. This is hard to see when looking at your loaded ammunition.

The first link below is to a case forming thread. Use new brass and you will not have problems. Full power .30-30 loads are the best fire form loads. Unique will not always blow the cases out sharp and clean.
Using brass previously loaded as .30-30 will quickly give you cracks and case separation at the pressure ring. I have a picture or two of broken cases in some of these threads as I formed cases from everything I could find while looking at case capacity.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... t=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... t=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... t=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... t=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... t=.30-30ai

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... t=.30-30ai

[TomD]

Though I can certainly see why this would be done, I wouldn't do it. 30-30 gets it done as is, has fabulolus ammo availability. Most important though is it is one of those old cartridges that feeds like a greased eel. I don't imagine that maters that much, but then neither does a few grs more powder. Still I'd like to see it done in a gun I could borrow...

I have a few projects were I would like to add new wood. I'm a master woodworker, so I can think of forty ways to drill/rout out the holes in the foreend. But sometimes I overthink it and I'm wondering how it gets done based on the stock work earlier in this thread.

[Don McDowell]

Though I can certainly see why this would be done, I wouldn't do it. 30-30 gets it done as is, has fabulolus ammo availability. Most important though is it is one of those old cartridges that feeds like a greased eel. .

That's the really sweet deal of this ai, if you do something really stupid, and forget to take your ai ammo on a hunting trip, just whip into the closest hardware store grab a box of factory ammo, and get er done. You'll have a couple 3 newly fire formed cases when you get home.
The ai still feeds really well.

[O.S.O.K.]

Again, thanks guys for the information!

I wonder if a VLD chamfer would suffice (VERY LOW DRAG - Lyman) to decrease seating pressure...

I also have a Lee universal case belling die - so treat this like you are loading cast bullets heh?

[william iorg]

Yes, a good chamffer and the Lee belling die helps quite a bit.

I mentioned this to Dave Scovill once in a letter and he commented on my use of the Lyman M die by saying if I would look carefully at my chronograph readings I would find the use of the M die would give me higher veolicty spreads. I tested the two dies side by side and I had lower extreme spreads using the Lee die due I assume to the tighter neck tension. It was an interesting little test. I put some of the data in the 26" barrel thread but its not that important except to say the Lee die is the better choise.

[Malamute]

Blatant semi-hijack attempt


Slim, I've read many of your posts on Shooters Forum regarding your work with 30-30 barrel length differences, 30-30 AI and 307 info. If one were going to change a Marlin 336, would the 307 be a worthwhile upgrade over the 30-30 AI?


My gunsmith was hesitant to convet a standard 94 to 307 or 356, citing the smaller barrel shank compared to the big bore 94 and the Marlin 336, has this been an issue in your experience?


Way back in the 80's, a friend told me of a guy that succesfully converted a 94 to 444 Marlin, which has the larger body diameter, anyone else know of this being done on standard 94's?

[william iorg]

I don’t know any more. In my opinion the .308 Marlin Express changes everything. If I were going to ream a rifle today I would probably ream it to .308 Marlin Express as the cartridge case is easier to work with than the .30-30AI case.

Seattle Reloader has two Marlin 336 rifles converted to .307 Winchester by Nooneman (sp?) I would like to meet Mr. Nooneman someday as he is a careful workman and a good thinker. He seems to give a lot of consideration to his projects before he cuts metal.

I would have no hesitation to convert a standard Model 94AE to a .307 or .356 for my personal use. You may remember Myron Rockett posted on Leverguns that his original top eject Model 94 converted to the .308/.444 was still going strong after more than twenty years of continuous service. Rocketts reloading data is very current for the .307 by today’s standards.

I believe Mr. Nooneman had doubts about the strength of the new Model 94 Winchester as he was not able to get consistent Rockwell hardness numbers on the receivers. In my shooting with the Marlin 336 and the Winchester Model 94AE chambered for the .30-30AI I found the Model 94AE would accept higher pressure loads across the board. This was while loading above my velocity goals and looking for a “margin of safety.” In my experience the Model 94AE is a strong rifle but I don’t advocate testing it to it yield point!

[Malamute]

Thanks Slim.

I don't have any angle ejects, the newest 94 I have is a 1964 made gun. It would possibly be a 20's or 50's gun that got converted, or perhaps the 64 gun, tho it looks pretty good as a 38-55 carbine with high grade checkered wood at this point. Do you know how the year guns I mentioned are hardness wise compared to the later guns Noneman has checked?

I missed Myrons posts regarding his 308-444.

[william iorg]

Chris Cash may have his posts.

I don’t know how the older guns stack up but I think I have the information. I’ll look for it. I would not convert a rifle I already had in .38-55. Too much fun to be had with the .375 and .38-55 rifles.
The 1964 rifle would probably do well but I realy think I would save my pennies for an Angel Eject rifle. If the safety bothers you look for an early one without the divit. If the rebounding hammer and long take up trigger are a problem you can fix that too. With the angle eject rifle you are not “cutting up a collector.”
The first two links will take you to a little info on Myron Rocket. The second link tells about his Gun digest article.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... on+rockett

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... on+rockett

setting the shoulder back discussion
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... on+rockett

Here is a link to the leverguns thread which no longer works

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm ... on+rockett

[Malamute]

Good reading Slim, thanks.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Guess I still haven't caught up with the world, the older guns appeal to me in ways newer ones never have, including newer Winchesters. I still keep stumbling across older 94's for less than guys seem happy to pay for later angle/rebound/crossbolt 94's. So, collectibilty or not, I'd choose an older gun and do what I want with it, have less money in the project, and be happier with the end result. The Marlin in question is a late 60's gun, with apparently less than 20 rounds fired thru it in 98% shape. If I could do the same thing project wise with a Winchester, I wouldn't fool with a Marlin, I just can't warm up to them. A 1920's 94 in 356 or 444 would be really interesting to me!

[O.S.O.K.]

I have a Nonneman converted 336 in 356 Winchester. Love it! The only thing that I ran into is that the new ballistics shoot higher and I needed to install a .530" front sight to lower POI. No biggy! And if you're using a scope, that's not even an issue.

I don't think I would rechamber a Win 94 to anything other than another cartridge that's based on the 30-30 or an improved version thereof. The action is made for that pressure level and everything I've ever seen written and heard spoken indicates that going beyond that is not wise. Take a look at the 94 Big Bores - they have significantly thicker receivers where strength is needed to handle the higher pressures.

The Marlin 336 on the other hand is very strong and able to handle the 307/356 pressure levels. The 356 chambered rifles that Marlin made had the exact same barrels and receiver dimensions at their 35 Rem chambered guns. Ditto on the mag tubes and innerds. They simply used the 30-30 bolt and chambered the 35 Rem barrel for the 356 Winchester and offered it in the unique mag length/stock configuration.

If you want to rechamber to 308 Marlin, I'd stick with the 336.

As mentioned, Mr. Nonneman tests the receivers every time he does work on a Marlin and apparently, he's never found one that wasn't up to spec.

Now, quit jacking my thread

[Malamute]

I think the swollen Winchester BB receivers was unecessary, the later big bores, including the 444 and 450 had regular profile receivers. The information I've seen, when both Marlins and Winchester 94's were tested to failure (barreled and chambered in 454 cassull), the Winchesters lasted longer. The biggest practical difference in the big bores was a slightly thicker barrel shank where it threads into the receiver. The weak link seemd to be the angle eject receiver, the right side wall stretched first when tested to failure. The sidewalls on the Marlin bulged outwards and failed to lock up when tested to failure (in less than 20 rounds IIRC). None of them "blew up" they just stretched out into uselessness before many rounds were fired.

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, I understand that when Nonneman has checked the hardness of the receivers prior to doing work on them, the 94's are not consistently hardened. The Marlin 336's are.

This is not to say that the 94's aren't safe - they are for their intended use but are not really good candidates for chambering to higher pressures - due to the varience in hardness...

[jd45]

O.S.O.K.,.......'scuse me for stickin my 2 cents in here, but this 30-30AI upgrade seems like ONE HELL of an improvement for a .30 caliber lever rifle! Can I suggest you consider a "finishing touch" for your hotrodded beauty? Look into the Archives & fish out Paco's article entitled, "Accurizing The Lever-Action Rifle". Not saying you have to do it..........just read & think about it. Like I said...........just my two cents. Good luck with it. jd45

[william iorg]

Personally I have no problem with the modern Model 94 and higher pressures. I believe Mr. Nonneman when he says the Winchesters show uneven or non uniform heat treatment in his tests.
In my shooting with the .30-30AI I am certain I have been above 50,000 CUP regularly without difficulty.
If we treat each modification as an individual and even though the cartridge is a factory round treat the modified rifle/cartridge combination as a “mildcat” we will err on the side of safety.
I have no interest in the partisan: “which is stronger argument” between Winchester and Marlin fans but I have several pictures of Marlin 336 rifles which failed in the barrel thread area. At least one of the failures was caused by a severe overload; I never heard what caused the others. The only picture I have ever seen of a Winchester Model 94 which failed is the rifle pictured in P.O. Ackley’s Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. This rifle was intentionally overloaded.

[swshooter]

My 1962 edition of Ackley's Handbook lists two loads for 3031 and 150 gr bullets. 36 grs for 2535 fps and 38 grs for 2700 fps. No mention of barrel length. I'm sure these are way over factory pressures. Ackley says" With its minimum body taper design it can be loaded relatively "hot" and still work fine in lever action rifles. It is an easy cartridge to handload and can be highly recommended." He also says in the chapter on pressure "It can be easily demonstrated that such a design results in much easier and more positive extraction and at the same time allows heavier loads and higher pressures to be used without detrimental effects, thus enabling the shooter to reach considerably higher velocities without endangering himself or his rifle." Ackley obviously expected anyone using his improved cartridges to exceed factory pressures. Anyone who compares the performance of a standard 30-30 to an improved 30-30 and loads both to the same pressure has eliminated the reason the cartridge was improved. Ackley makes it very clear that the two best reasons to improve a cartridge are to increase velocity by safely loading to higher pressure, and to increase case life in those cartridges that are over bore capacity and already loaded to high pressure ie 220 Swift.

[william iorg]

Point well taken. I have posted something similar to this before but it fits here.
P. O. Ackley and others of his time sold high performance. There are two excellent articles from American Rifleman magazines which explain their goals.
The first article: December 1953 issue. The H. P. White Laboratory tested the .30-06 Improved. Loaded to standard .30-06 pressures revealed no "improvement" and William P. Wieman entitled his article: "How Improved is It?"

P. O. Ackley answered in the October 1954 issue of the Rifleman. His article, entitled: "'Improved' Cartridges" states his thoughts very clearly. This article contains one of my favorite "gun writer" quotes.
"At the beginning of these comments certain things were pointed out as possible improvements, but nothing was said concerning pressure. Whether the handloader or wildcat enthusiast is right or wrong, he is interested in several things, most important of which are increased velocity and whether the bolt stays in the gun. If he can achieve these two results without serious complications, he is not entirely concerned with its actual pressure readings in pounds per square inch."

Another very good one:
"From the handloaders point of view, the amount of bolt thrust is of great importance. The pressure transmitted to the walls of the chamber can be safely contained by the use of high tensile strength steel in the barrel."

Taken out of context, you could come away with a mistaken impression of P. O. Ackley and his thoughts on high-pressure cartridges. Ackley understood the construction of rifle actions and the limitations of the brass cartridge case. A serious study of his writings reveals a very thoughtful, deliberate experimenter.
The second quote says a lot about my favorite rifle/cartridge combination, the .307 Winchester and the M-94 Big Bore rifle. The emphasis on the high tensile strength steel used in his rifle barrels is one of the most overlooked aspects of Ackley rifles and cartridges.
If you are unwilling to accept higher pressures with wildcat cartridges you will not see an improvement. Establishing reasonable limits and sticking to them is part of the exercise. For me forming the cases and developing the loads is just as much fun as the trip to the range to prove the theory. The study of internal ballistics is a math exercise that will help you pass many evenings far away from the television set.

[O.S.O.K.]

O.S.O.K.,.......'scuse me for stickin my 2 cents in here, but this 30-30AI upgrade seems like ONE HELL of an improvement for a .30 caliber lever rifle! Can I suggest you consider a "finishing touch" for your hotrodded beauty? Look into the Archives & fish out Paco's article entitled, "Accurizing The Lever-Action Rifle". Not saying you have to do it..........just read & think about it. Like I said...........just my two cents. Good luck with it. jd45

Thanks - I'll check that out.

And as to pumping the pressures up in my rifle, I have no inclination to do that. If I want a faster, more powerful cartridge, I'll just pull one of my other rifles out of the safe chambered in 6.5x55, .270 Win, 30-06, etc.

I think a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2500-2600 is all the poop I need for whitetail which is what this rifle is for.