Marlin '93 Black Powder barrel loading

[otteray]

I noticed in a couple of old Marlin catalogs (June, 1897 and Jan, 1905) that the "black Powder barrel should not be used with "High Power Smokeless " powders.
These books also state that there are low pressure and power and high pressure and power powders. Am I correct in thinking that 5744 or SR4759 fall into the low pressure and power category when used in lower velocity loads? I've always thought so.
Using a 255 gr cast bullet,I've been loading 12.8 gr 5744 (Accurate Powder's "cowboy load") getting a velocity of 900 fps and so-so grouping.
Using 14.5 gr 5744 I get 1000 fps and a little bit better groups.
20.2 gr 5744 (velocity 1451) is the starting load in two cast reloading manuals that I have; but I am hesitant to work up to that, even though it is well below 30,000 CUP, probably closer to 18,000 CUP (when looking at a 249 gr cast w/23 gr 5744, velocity 1490, pressure 17400 CUP).
While searching out an accurate load; would that last mentioned starting load be the neighborhood for the BlackPowder barrel?
My goal is not hotter loads; I just need some more elbow room in my load development.

[otteray]

Also, let me add that "Cartridges of the World" states not to use velocities over about 1500 in old Ballard and Stevens single shot rifles.

[Ben_Rumson]

Early smokeless powders were very erosive to the soft steel barrels that had served well with BP up until then...In the early days Hi Power smokeless powders were the kinds used in military cartridges and in sporting rifles designed for new smokeless calibers..It was found that nickel steel barrels held up better than the regular steel barrels..Along with Hi Power smokeless powders there were smokeless powders made for reloading that were low intensity and were made bulky to fill cases originally designed for BP., like the 38-55 for instance...I'd guess that's what your brochures are talking about. Modern smokeless powders don't have the same erosive effects the the early ones had.. Don't know what pressures the 93 Marlin was spec'd for but SAAMI specs for cartridges designed for BP take this into account and factory's load the ammo accordingly..

[otteray]

Early smokeless powders were very erosive to the soft steel barrels that had served well with BP up until then...In the early days Hi Power smokeless powders were the kinds used in military cartridges and in sporting rifles designed for new smokeless calibers..It was found that nickel steel barrels held up better than the regular steel barrels..Along with Hi Power smokeless powders there were smokeless powders made for reloading that were low intensity and were made bulky to fill cases originally designed for BP., like the 38-55 for instance...I'd guess that's what your brochures are talking about. Modern smokeless powders don't have the same erosive effects the the early ones had.. Don't know what pressures the 93 Marlin was spec'd for but SAAMI specs for cartridges designed for BP take this into account and factory's load the ammo accordingly..

Thanks for the explanation, sir!
According to Lyman's 48th Edition, SAAMI established a Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 30,000 CUP.

[w30wcf]

otteray,

The early low pressure smokeless powders were DuPont No. 1 Bulk Smokeless and DuPont No. 2 bulk smokeless. They were designed to completely fill the capacity of the case and give b.p. ballistics and pressure. No.1 was used in rifle cartridges ex. .32-40, .38-55, .45-70, etc. No. 2 in shorter cartridges .38-40, .44-40, etc.

No. 1 had a burning rate similar to 4198. No. 2's burning rate is similar to 4227.

So, yes, you are correct in thinking that 5744 and SR4759 fall into the low pressure and power category when used in loads producing b.p. ballistics. The only difference being that the early low pressure smokeless powders completely filled the capacity of the case so that it was not possible to develop higher pressures than b.p.

w30wcf

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

For what it's worth, I have a Marlin Model 1894 manufactured in 1895. This one is chambered for 44-40. I bought this rifle way back around 1975, and had not even heard of 44-40 back then.

This old rifle has some erosion of the bore near the chamber, which is fairly common with old rifles, probably from shooting it with Black Powder and not cleaning it soon enough. Also perhaps caused by the corrosive primers in use at the time. The bore of my old Marlin is pitted, but the rifling is strong. When I started shooting Cowboy Action a number of years ago, I brought the old Marlin with me. I was using 7 1/2 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet. Certainly not a high velocity load, although I have no idea how much pressure it generated. This load was reasonably accurate for me, considering the iron sights and my poor eyesight. I don't believe I was hurting the gun with it at all. When I started loading 44-40 with Black Powder I bought a new Uberti 1873 because I had read that cleaning BP fouling out of old pitted bores can require more effort than cleaning it out of shiny new bores. The fouling likes to nestle down in all those thousands of little, tiny pits.

I still bring the old Marlin to a CAS match on occaision when I want to shoot Smokeless. I still use my my Unique loads, and I don't believe I am harming the old gun at all. Certainly not putting any more wear and tear on the barrel and action than was already there when I bought it. I have shot it a few times with my Black Powder loads, and it does require more elbow grease to remove all the fouling from the bore than my Uberti '73 and Henry with their shiny bores. But not enough elbow grease to really be a problem.

[Sixgun]

My good friend w30wcf has it right and is excellent infromation. Jack is one of the most knowledgeable individuals in the country for early smokeless powders and pressures.

I would like to add that I load for many of the old Winchesters and Marlins. In one 1893 Marlin that I have that is marked "For Black Powder" in 32-40 has digested several thousand rounds of ammo loaded with the 175 gr. RCBS gas checked bullet over top of 20 grains of A.A. 5744. Velocity is (don't have my notes handy) a tad over 1700. Pressures are in the low 20,000 range and are safe.---------Sixgun

[otteray]

Thanks for the information.
I recall reading somewhere that with powders like 5744 and SR4759, that using 40% of the useful case capacity duplicates the original black powder load (Adobe Walls' Billy Dixon re-enactment article?)
In the 38-55, 40% of 55 gr = 22gr.
This is also close to what Lyman has as their starting load.
However, according to Venturino's "Shooting Leverguns of the Old West," the newer, shorter cases only hold about 40 or so grains of FFG; so I'll reduce the smokeless charge to about 16 gr.

[w30wcf]

Driftwood Johnson,
Nice vintage '94 Marlin you have there. Neat! I have an original '73 Winchester (1882) .44 W.C.F. with a pitted barrel. My favorite smokeless load is a 200 gr. cast bullet and 17/4227 which duplicates the original smokeless loading of 17 grs. DuPont No. 2 bulk smokeless. The difference being that No.2 filled the capacity of the case, whereas 4227 doesn't.

Sixgun,
Thank you for the kind words. My learnin' has come from reading information that the shooters of yesteryear had left for us to follow. Dissecting early cartridges has helped as well.

otterray,
The -55 in .38-55 is misleading. Back in the early days of the .38-55 singleshot rifles, bullets were seated into the barrel and followed by a case full of b.p. with a card wad on top. The -55 represented the amount of b.p. that the case would hold filled to the top.

The factory loading was 48 grs. of b.p. in a SHBP (solid head button pocket - aka balloon head) to make room for the bullet.
These cases hold about 2 grs. more of b.p. than the modern solid head web cases do.

The 40% rule applies to 4198 a slightly slower burning powder than 5744. 46 grs (48-2) x .40 = 18.4 grs. of 4198. (Interestingly, Hodgdon shows 18.5 / H4198 / 1,407 f.p.s. / 17,100 C.U.P. under a 250 gr. cast bullet)

Regarding 5744, it has been written that the 40% rule applies to first determining the capacity load in grs. of 5744 under the bullet. Then take that weight in grs. x .40.

The Accurate Reloading manual Number Two, does show a load of 16 grs. / 5744 in a 24" barrel giving 1,241 f.p.s./17,900 C.U.P. BUT UNDER A lighter 240 gr. Cast Bullet.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[otteray]

I have about 60 unused cartridges of the older, longer length 38-55 (Dominican brand) and an unopened can of Goex FFG Clear Shot from a few years ago.
I'd like to try that combination, too.
Ever use that powder in the '93 or a 38-55?

[marlinman93]

Be sure to stay with cast bullets in your 1893 also! That's soft steel, and jacketed bullets will not be good on the bore.

[otteray]

Be sure to stay with cast bullets in your 1893 also! That's soft steel, and jacketed bullets will not be good on the bore.

Good point!. That's why I sold all my jacketed bullets to Hobie not so long ago!

I cast most of my calibers with lead wheel weights or softer, using the Old West Bullet Moulds that either my late dad (J.K. Chapman) or Bernie Rowles designed.
All my Marlins were from Dad. I found his reload data for most of the other calibers, but not for this 38-55.

[jorgy]

I have an 1893 Marlin 38/55 SN#133xxx. This gun is definitely before "Special Smokeless
Steel" barrels. It has a mint bore & cleans easily. It is a takedown model. My load for
this rifle & other 38/55s I own is a 265 cast lead bullet with a gas check & 30 grains of
IMR 3031 gunpowder. In my shooting season about 6-7 months a year I go to the range
about once or twice a week. This gun is one of favorite guns to shoot & I probably shoot
600-700 rounds a season thru it. I clean it on a regular basis. In all the rounds I have put
thru it I have not noticed any barrel wear or erosion. It still shines like a new dime when I
done cleaning. Keep in mind this barrel is pre special smokeless steel. I think that is a
testament to the fact that the Marlin Company used in the manufacture of their rifles
back then. Some people may consider my loads a little on the strong side but neither do
I believe in hot loads either. I have tried some of the new powders like "Trail Boss" & some
of the other substitute black powders but frankly I was disappointed in those powders.

[otteray]

While I understand it to be a bad idea to use a filler or wads with 5744, anyone recommend techniques for the other powders mentioned here?
I read in Handloader a few years back, in an interview with the powder company rep, that wads can cause barrel ringing with 5744.

[marlinman93]

More likely that wads can cause chamber ringing, as they work like a blockage in the barrel, so as powders expand during ignition, if the wad is away from the powder it builds against the wad and rings the chamber.

[w30wcf]

otteray,
I have used Goex Clear Shot in my .44-40. It worked ok but the velocities were almost 20% less than I get from b.p. Perhaps in the longer .38-55 case, it may come up to speed.

Regarding fillers, try the load of smokeless first with no filler. Yes, a card wad on top of the powder charge (Any type of powder) if there is airspace could ring the chamber when the wad collides with the base of the bullet.

In the past, with light loads in straight walled cases I have used a thin paper disc (punched from white copy paper) to hold the powder against the primer. That works well.

w30wcf

[don Tomás]

OtterRay,
Give that new Blackhorn 209 a look. It's expensive as all get out, but seems to work well in my original trapdoor. See you for sand dabs at Rappa's or Calamari Siciliano at Abalonetti's...
Tom
(Monterey Bay born & raised)

[otteray]

OtterRay,
Give that new Blackhorn 209 a look. It's expensive as all get out, but seems to work well in my original trapdoor. See you for sand dabs at Rappa's or Calamari Siciliano at Abalonetti's...
Tom
(Monterey Bay born & raised)

Actually , I'm in Santa Cruz on the northern most end of Monterey Bay, but am embarrassed by the socialist stigma associated by this town. Also, if you surf, you know I would be called an "L.A. transplant," having moved here in 1971 from Orange County, CA. Local surf punk crowd stigma.
Thanks for the tips on the good restaurants , though!

Marlinman93- Yes you are correct; Chamber, not barrel ringing. Thanks for clarifying that!
Glad you made it back here.

[don Tomás]

Actually , I'm in Santa Cruz on the northern most end of Monterey Bay, but am embarrassed by the socialist stigma associated by this town. Also, if you surf, you know I would be called an "L.A. transplant," having moved here in 1971 from Orange County, CA. Local surf punk crowd stigma.
Thanks for the tips on the good restaurants , though!

OK, then we'll C U @ the Shadowbrook and then coffee at Mr. Toots. Loved all the "head" shops in Capitola during the '60s.
Tom

[otteray]

So, who sells Blackhorn 209 around those parts, don Tomas??
If they sell it in Monterey County, that's a good excuse for bringing the wife to the area for lunch.
Maybe go shooting at the Laguna Seca Range...
.

[don Tomás]

So, who sells Blackhorn 209 around those parts, don Tomas??
If they sell it in Monterey County, that's a good excuse for bringing the wife to the area for lunch.
Maybe go shooting at the Laguna Seca Range...
.

Well, I'm up in the Sierra Nevada now, and head to the Coast just to visit relatives (Salinas mostly) and get my seafood fix. I found the best deal on the BH209 at Powder Valley. $26 for a 10oz bottle (can't in all good faith call it a "jug" ). Got a big order together with a bunch of buddies to split shipping and hazmat. Haven't found it anywhere up here, even Herb Baur in Fresno (1.5 hrs away) doesn't have it, which is just as well as their markup is incredible. I love my mountains, but sure miss the ocean...