1895 Marlin .470 Turnbull Conversion Blurb

[Pete44ru]

I just received the Jan 09 issue (#242) of RIFLE MAGAZINE - and one of the articles is about Doug Turnbull's Marlin 1895 conversion to the .470 Turnbull.

Turnbull will, at minimun, rebore/rerifle/rechamber the barrel, and do the minor rework/smoothing to those boltfaces and EJ ports that are on the low side of the tolerance deck.

The .470 Turnbull is made from Starline .50 Alaskan brass, necked to .475" by simply running the cases through the .470 T sizing die.
Bullets must have a .500" nose ection, forward of the forward cannelure, for this cartridge - and are available through Turnbull (for now).

The basic conversion starts at $900 ......................

.

[Modoc ED]

Just what advantage does the .470 Turnbull have over the .45-70; .444 Marlin; 450 Marlin; .50-90?

I swear. Sometimes, I think these guys bring out new cartridges just to soak the folks for more money.

Wildcat rounds are always interesting and fun to work with and most Wildcatters aren't in it for the money but these Turnbull rounds seem to have been generated for the sole purpose of making money for Turnbull.

Just my .02¢

[.45colt]

"I swear. Sometimes, I think these guys bring out new cartridges just to soak the folks for more money."
You took the words right out of My mouth. Jim.

[Mike D.]

My feelings, exactly, Ed.

[TedH]

I don't see a problem with it. What's wrong with bringing out something new? The same could be said for the 308 Marlin Express and whatever offshoots it fathers. Nobody said you had to go out and buy one. A guys got to make a buck, and if this helps him sell a few jobs then more power to him.

[6pt-sika]

You know I can relate to someone not wanting to purchase a particular new rifle or cartridge .

I can also relate to the person that likes to try new things or just likes seeing new stuff !

It isn't always about whats better sometimes it's about what the person wants .

You might want a "361 Polywally Bammer" and I might want a "384 Buffalo Beater" it doesn't matter whether I like your cartridge or you like mine !

All that matters is that we both still have the right to make a choice and still have the right to shoot them once we've decided !

The whole thing about knocking new cartridges because they're close to something else or because it doesn't fit your own parameters need to stop !

For ALL our well being in shooting sports in general YOU need to be more receptive and less anti in your own gun buying/shooting community ! If this new Turnbull cartridge brings six new folks into the gun oriented way of life then it is 100% positive !

Some of you guys can't see the tree's for the forest !

[6pt-sika]

Wildcat rounds are always interesting and fun to work with and most Wildcatters aren't in it for the money but these Turnbull rounds seem to have been generated for the sole purpose of making money for Turnbull.

Just my .02¢

By no means am I arguing with you but think about the statement you made !

The guy is in the gun buisness , he does this to MAKE money !

By no means am I an advocate of Turnbull , Reeder or Wild West ! But they all make some things I like .

And on the other hand if he should use this cartridge or any of his others to draw some urban yuppies into the gun oriented way of life then so be it we will all benefit by added support from some folks we didn't have before !

[6pt-sika]

Like it or not here it is !

https://secure.cazbah.net/store.asp?pid=24032

[6pt-sika]

More !

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/cata ... prevnext=1

[6pt-sika]

Still more !

Although not cheap by any stretch of the imagination !

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/inde ... gory=20937

[6pt-sika]

Judging from this picture all he's doing is unscrewing your original barrel and reaming it out !

https://secure.cazbah.net/client_images ... etail5.jpg

[Pathfinder09]

Nothing I can't already do with my .45-70 Govt. or .405 Winchester. It answers a question that doesn't not need to be asked. I like rifle Magazine but they seem to be enamored with Turnbull.

Just my $.02.

[k8bor]

Yep, I think you can do the same velocities with Hornady roundnoses and healthy doses of 4198. So that's what shooting a Turnbull is like!

[Pete44ru]

Although IMHO $900 is a tad pricey for the conversion ($500 is more like it), here's what the man who shot the rifle and wrote the article had to say about the .470 Turnbull:

"This is a practical, high-performance cartridge that is suitable for hunting any animal on Earth."
"The cartridge works well in the Marlin, which is important, as there are many such rifles around that can be obtained at reasonable prices, which helps keep the overall cost of the conversion down."
"The cartridge offers considerable punch and can drive a 400gr bullet somewhat faster than a .45-70, with less pressure and in a larger caliber."
"The latter point gives the .470 Turnbull and edge for hunting large or dangerous game, which is a significant accomplishment."

(Merry almost Christmas ! )

.

[Modoc ED]

6pt-sika - Wow that string got yer post count up!!!
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Pathfinder09 said:

"I like rifle Magazine but they seem to be enamored with Turnbull."

Ain't that the truth. "Scovill" probably gets a free sample to keep of every Turnbull rifle he reviews favorably. Hmmmmmmmmmm, wonder if "Scovill" got a free sample to keep of the .475 Turnbull rifle that was written up favorably in the March 2008, No. 236 issue of Rife Magazine.

[JustaJeepGuy]

He's selling the ammo for $4.50 per cartridge? Are dies available, or is the ammo where he's really going to make his money?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Curious about the need for the top edge of the cannelure to be 1/2" down from the bullet nose. I would have thought the Marlin would need a shorter OAL and that he would have needed the top edge of the cannelure to be 2/5" down from the bullet nose. I haven't read the article yet though and I'm sure the math on that point is in there somewhere. He probably has to trim the brass back after he resizes to get his proper OAL for the Marlin with that long of a nose.

Looking forward to that issue arriving.

[k8bor]

The dies are $225/set.

Bullets are preportionetly expensive. I think he'd sell a lot more conversions if he could drop the price some on the extras.

[tman]

i'm all for new cartridges, especially levergun ones. but i don't see the .470 as any improvement over the 45-70. the 45-70 will kill any game on the planent. the leverevolutions will shoot flatter and beat it range wise. but, if you can afford to buy and feed it, more power to u.

[buckeyeshooter]

By the way, for the same $900.00 --- you could go to the 50 alaskan. Which gives a bit more performance and has a bit better bullet selction available.

[Lastmohecken]

"I swear. Sometimes, I think these guys bring out new cartridges just to soak the folks for more money."
You took the words right out of My mouth. Jim.

You're right about that, just like the major firearms manufactures do, too. Anything to sell a new gun, when in fact, we havn't needed a new hunting cartridge since since 1906, but lets be generous and give them another 50yrs, and I think it is definately safe to say that there hasn't been a round developed since that time, that we really needed.

I would rather see them develope new rifles, to offer, instead, mainly more blue steel and walnut, without the plastic parts and lawyered up safety stuff on them. But that's just me. Maybe more guns that actually came out of the box, without the need to slick up the actions, just to get them to run reliabilily.

[6pt-sika]

6pt-sika - Wow that string got yer post count up!!!

Is that all you bothered to look at ?

[Modoc ED]

6pt-sika - Wow that string got yer post count up!!!

Is that all you bothered to look at ?

Nawwwwww!!! I just wanted to rattle yer cage a bit. Don't know why but I'm in one of those "rattle yer cage" mood, days. I looked at everything. We've all got our opinions. Sure, new cartridges are great but Turnbull is a little over the top on his. $4.00 to $5.00 per round is really steep -- way way over his cost and a modest profit for him and it's just my opinion that $900.00 is steep for the conversion he does.

Garrett is another example of way way overpriced ammunition. It is good no doubt but way way over the top. I don't mind paying good money for good merchandise. I just don't like it when they stick it up where the sun don't shine.

That's one reason I took up reloading. Got tired of paying for dinner dates for some of the ammunition suppliers. Let em buy their own dinner and dates.

[6pt-sika]

[quote="Modoc EDit's just my opinion that $900.00 is steep for the conversion he does.
[/quote]

That price is a good bit over the top ! All he really does is rebore/rechamber the original barrel and then massage the innards so it'll feed !

WWG offered the same deal to me for a 50 Alaskan for about $650 !

Regan Nunneman offered to REBARREL a rifle in 50 Alaskan or 475 GNR for $900 and return my old barrel as well !

Now then I have NO NEED for a 450 Alaskan but I have one . And I have no need for a 470 Turnbull , 475 GNR or 50 Alaskan but I WANT all three

[Buck Elliott]

I swear, summa you fellers 'd turn up yer noses at Prime Rib & horse radish, after livin' on beans & roasted grain coffee for mosta' yer lives...

Don't remember when I've seen shooters grouse at havin' a NEW (well -- almost new...) cartridge offered to 'em. Most often, us gun-cranks are clamorin' for MORE new stuff; not LESS...

As for Turnbull makin' some dollars & change from his latest brain-child: He's a businessman, and he (like everyone else..) is TRYIN' to make some money, so's he can STAY in business. WELCOME TO ECONOMICS 101 boys...

FWIW, I stumbled onto a similar cartridge, years ago, when I fireformed some .45-70 cases in a .475 Linebaugh Maximum chamber...: Instant NECKED .45 cal. cases. More capacity, more performance with less pressure... All kindsa' possibilities

If Industry in general had listened to the like of you fellers, we'd still be ridin' unshod ponies, bareback, just to get to COSTCO... , AN' watchin' Gunsmoke reruns in the dark.

[Guncase]

I don't think it's about trying to improve on the 45-70 or any other cartridge. Some people just like something different, or perhaps custom.
I can buy a $12,000.00 Hyundai to drive to work, but I might want a $75,000.00 BMW. I'm glad that here in America, we can choose to be different if we like.

[Lastmohecken]

OH yeah, there's nothing wrong with wanting a new caliber to fool around with or a wildcat for that matter.

However, I do get a little disgusted at the big firearms makers when they keep comming out with so many new calibers, (shortmags for one) I have totally lost count of the new short mags, etc. It's like the firearms industry just throws out the new calibers by the handfuls lately, then some people buy them, but some die on the vine, afterwards, and the round becomes very rare, if not impossible to find, and then the firearms industry abandons their customers, and drops said calibers from there line, even quits making ammo for some of them, and leaves some of their customers hanging out on a limb.

[TomD]

"I don't think it's about trying to improve on the 45-70 or any other cartridge. Some people just like something different, or perhaps custom. "

I think it is a little bit. The 475 is there to get classic Africa performance out of a levergun. The velocity, bullet weight and SD criterion that are regarded as minimum for African Game. Whether that is a practical goal, even among the tiny minortiy interested in hunting DG with a levergun is another question, but it certainly is more than just fiddling around.

As many in this thread have said, "what can this cartridge do that a 45/70 can't?" The flip side to that is that if this cartridge is so similar, then why not use it if it will eliminate the trust concerns that African "hands" feel over cartridges like the 45/70 that do not make the bar that hunters over there have traditionally set. Sure it costs more, but that hardly ads up to much for the average safari goer, and prices could come down with acceptance.

A further practicality is that the Homeland security types have made the export of 50 cal. rifles a huge headache. Rules designed to stop the export of 50 cal. sniper systems are nailing all of us who don't live in the US, as far as having access to US product is concerned. It may get worse, so why not start winding up the 470 caliber train. African Hunters come from all over the globe, and it would seem to make for a larger market for US guns if they positioned this category outside of the 50 cal. stuff. It just reduces headaches.

So there are reasons for the 475, unfortunately Turnbull doesn't beleive it is suited for the Marlin format. So the 470 is developed for it. Not as attractive across the board as the 475 was, and does not seem to be making the required numbers. Always seemed to me that the 50AK was superior to the 475 anyway, it doesn't measure up on SD, but it gets respect none the less, and makes more sense in a Marlin as far as I am concerned. Still why waste all that positive marketing, the 470 was an obvious thing to bring out. I was working on the same idea to avoid the 50 cal problem, but never got anywhere with it. I think after T. introduced the 475 the market was pulling on the 470, he didn't have to push.

[WCF3030]

I hope he sells a million of them.
I read on this forum and others everyday about people justifying there latest rifle or pistol purchase.
"Its my heavy timber to use on Monday and Wednesday morning before breakfast rifle", or something like that. But then they get the same thing in stainless in case it rains.
Whats the big deal? You make your own money and you want a new toy.

If need was the only driving force to purchase a firearm, H&R would be the only company in business, selling 30-06's and 12ga's.

[6pt-sika]

I'm gonna say this one more time !

Alot of people on this forum and many others feel you need to justify every new cartridge or whatever to their own personal criteria !

And that just isn't so ! In todays society the only thing you need to justify is whether you can afford it or want it !

No ones holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy it !

Lots of folks say there is no "need" for this or that !

"Need" was taken from the equation 50 years ago when we went to a predominately grocery fed society !

So now it's all about "want" and if you want it fine and if you don't want it fine !

But as far as argueing over whether or not this man or any other should try and make money from his ideas thats just plain dumb ! The guys in buisness to make money , some folks want rifles with his name on them and are willing to pay the price .

It's no different now then it was 70 years ago when Jack O'Conner paid Al Biesen a goodly sum of money to build all those great Pre 64 Model 70 custom 270's he had . Or when Elmer Keith purchased some of the old British double rifles he had ! All were expensive and many folks think to expensive it all boils down to get what you want and can justify paying for !