400grain loads for the .405 Winchester? UPDATED

[crs]

Does anyone have specific 400 grain bullets and or loads to recommend for the Japchester 1895 .405 Winchester?

[Don McDowell]

Don't know if they still do or not, but Hogdons had some loads with the 400 gr woodleigh.
I've shot some 400 gr cast bullets, with AA5744, but don't remember offhand the exact charge weight. Recoil was generous.

[RKrodle]

Woodleigh RNSN .411"

Hodgdon
Varget, 48.0.......52.......1928fps
H4895, 45.5........50.5....1945
H4198, 33.0........36.5....1718

Ramshot
TAC, 51.0.......53.5.......2076

The Woodleigh Bullet is for the 450/400 Nitro at .411".

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/Bull ... .408-30667

[CowboyTutt]

Man, that is a powerful load in 405! I may have to break down and get one, but I'm working on a motorcycle right now.

-Tutt

[1886]

Frank at Mt.Baldy Bullets will be able to help you. He will size the .416 Rigby/Rem. 350gr bullet to .414" or .413" for you. I shot them with healthy doses of H-4895 out of two new 1895 .405 rifles. Accuracy and ballistic consistency were excellent. I know you asked about 400gr projectiles but you may find that you receive diminishing returns due to lack of case capacity. Regards, 1886.

[crs]

Gents;
Thank you all for the comments and suggestions. Since we all like big bores, you may want to pick up a magazine by Hornady, the SPECIAL COLLECTORS ISSUE - 60 YEARS OF HORNADY -THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO HORNADY.
Thesee were available free in the Hornady booth at the recent Dallas Safari Club show, so I suspect they will be available at any show with a Hornady booth.
Of the many interesting articles, my favorite is the Craig Boddington one "Fear No Evil" about the new Hornady dangerous game series of bullets and loaded cartridges. The .405 Winchester in the photo below was loaded with a swaged Hornady .416 bullet and Hornady powder to 2100 fps. I t was used by Boddington's daughter in a Ruger #1 in .405 to kill her cape buffalo.Graig reports that it was so spectacular on buffalo that he convinced Hornady to make a similar load for the .450/400 three inch and Ruger to chamber the cartridge.



Naturally, such stories got me to searching the web for heavy loads for the .405 and on another gun and shooting site, I located a post saying that he shoots in his new Win 1895 .405 Win .300 grain loads to 2350 fps and 400 grain loads to 2150 fps. The author did not specify the loads, but it did get my attention.
From Paco's 45-70 article, it is obvious that modern rifles and propellents can make the Winchester 1886 .45-70 a real dangerous game gun, so I will soon be researching just how the 1886 and 1895 actions compare with respect to strength.
Please be free to chime in with more relevant comments and observations.

[crs]

Ricky;
Do you know if that load uses the crimp groove on the Woodleigh or just crimps to the bullet?

[RKrodle]

The data I found didn't say if it was crimped in the groove or not. I'll dig around some more and see if I can find out.

Edited to add: I found the C.O.L. is 3.230". Maybe someone has loaded this combo and well post up if it crimps in the groove or not.

[CowboyTutt]

Good thread, CRS! I'm enjoying it!

-Tutt

[Don McDowell]

Hornady mailed me that magazine, and a new catolog, and just the other day a dvd showed up.
They do have the dgr series of bullets available in .410 diameter, which is probably close enough to work.
Northfork is back in production under new ownership , somewhere in Oregon? So anyway those bullets are now available.

[Leverluver]

Charles

The load in the Hodgdon Annual Manual is most definitely longer than anything that will work through our M95s. The load pictured above is also too long for the action. About the longest you can "reliably" get away with is 3.19". The top round can be a little longer but remember the magazine tapers to the bottom and what works as the top round won't work at the bottom of the magazine. If you want to play with that, you better number your rounds . I have worked with rechambered 270s and 30-06s that can use longer OALs but the 405s pretty much stick to what the originals used. The Woodleigh buried deep enough to achieve that OAL will have significant impact on the case capacity AND will be nowhere near the crimp groove, if that matters.

[1886]

I agree with leverluver's comments with respect to O.A.L. I tried longer rounds in my two 1895s without success. I did have Lee make a FCD for the .405 so crimping anywhere on the bullet's bearing surface is no issue. Swaging down a "softer" .416 bullet is a grand idea. 1886.

[crs]

mmmm, maybe a depleted uranium bullet that would provide the weight without losing case capacity?

[RKrodle]

How about some of the 350gr bullets that are out there? Would you be able to use them without seating to deep?

[crs]

Gents:
I found some very interesting posts on this subject over on the "24 hour campfire" forum:
Here is one of them:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... /1/fpart/1

One of persons posting is Ranch 13, formerly a frequent poster on leverguns.

[J Miller]

Gents:
I found some very interesting posts on this subject over on the "24 hour campfire" forum:
Here is one of them:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... /1/fpart/1

One of persons posting is Ranch 13, formerly a frequent poster on leverguns.

He still is a frequent poster on Leverguns. When we came over here he just switched to his name: Don McDowell.

Joe

[Modoc ED]

Gents:
I found some very interesting posts on this subject over on the "24 hour campfire" forum:
Here is one of them:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthrea ... /1/fpart/1

One of persons posting is Ranch 13, formerly a frequent poster on leverguns.

He still is a frequent poster on Leverguns. When we came over here he just switched to his name: Don McDowell.

Joe

That's just too much confusion for an old fanny burp like me!!!!!

[CowboyTutt]

A good friend of mine has a win. 95 in .405..He had the throat lengthened, the feeding worked over, and he can seat the bullet out..He gets and easy 2100 FPS with 400 gr. Woodleigh RN and solid bullets..he has shot a number of buffalo with this gun and found it to be about the same as his 450-400 N.E.

I see that as a good idea...

This is MOST interesting. For some time now, I've been looking for another levergun project but have not seen anything that struck my fancy. This really does, although I have to wonder if you need to "expand" the magazine somehow, not just the chamber of the rifle to fit this cartridge.

My money is going to be tied up for a bit trying to afford a motorcyle, but this project sounds really neat to me.

Again, I want to thank you guys for posting it!

-Tutt

[Leverluver]

C Tutt

I suggest that you contact JudgeG directly. Don't take any information second hand. Throating alone will do next to nothing. To wind up with a useable cartridge OAL will require extensive (expensive) modification to the action and magazine. A lot of the bloviating you hear is referring to the Ruger #1 which is a whole different animal, OAL-wise and pressure-wise.

I have done extensive pressure tests on the 411 Hawk in both M95s and bolt guns. The Hawk has more case capacity (~5% at equal OALs) AND I was working with a longer OAL than will work through current M95s. Even so, 2150fps is flat out max with a 400 grain in the Hawk (from a bolt gun) and that is at tip top bolt gun pressures (60KSI) from a 25" barrel. I never worked with the 400 at M95 OALs because, rightly so, no one (including me) was interested. Again take note that the Hodgdon data lists ~1950fps and that IS at an OAL that will NOT work through an unmodified M95. Yes, the M95 can take pressures more than Hodgdon lists but not by a whole lot. The M95 won't come apart at bolt gun pressures but the cases (expensive cases) are not going to appreciate the continuous stretching from high pressure loads. I personally stopped M95 pressures at 52-53Ksi which is the equivalent of the old 44KCUP standard. Case life is acceptable at those pressures and you won't wind up "wearing" part of your rifle.

As to the data floating about the internet about a 400 grain 2150fps from a 405 in a M95 all I have to say is the good thing about the gene pool,...... it can always use a good scrubbing.

[Leverluver]

I went digging through old archives at AR and this is what I came up with. The Judge (I know him personally) did no alterations to the rifle other than using a throating reamer as these M95s have essentially NO throat to them. Without that, the Woodleigh ogive would contact the rifling. That DID NOT make the rifle accept longer OALs. He did try seating to the cannelure and (after throating) could get one up the spout and only one in the top position in the magazine. Any further down in the magazine the tip of the bullet would hang up on the front of the magazine (not good facing a cape buff). He then made a cannelure further out on the bullet to crimp into so as to achieve a workable OAL all the way down in the magazine. His final load achieved 2000fps (don't bother asking him what it was as he is not a reloader, he farms that out). That is a warm but still plausible velocity for that weight bullet, at that OAL, at an acceptable M95 pressure and even then there are probably no more than one or two powders that will pull it off. After all that he did not take that load combination to Africa. The trip turned out to be a dud as far as the 405 goes as he insisted on installing a climbing Lyman and it did what they were notorious for doing, it self-adjusted itself. With no faith in the repeatability of the sighting system he resorted to using his double the rest of the trip. So not only did the 405 with 400 grainers not kill multiple buffalo, they didn't kill "A" buffalo, although I am sure with proper placement at a reasonable range, even that load would do so. But 2150........forget about it.

[1886]

Well stated leverluver. I was able to achieve, comfortably, 1875fps with the modern 95 with a Mt.Baldy 350gr hard cast sized .414" with commonly available components. Certainly a powerful load. Further, I agree one would be wise to keep pressures at the 45K cup max. even in the new 95. Good, well stated posts. 1886.

[CowboyTutt]

Leverluver, thanks for doing the research on all that. I may still get a 95 some day as I'm not going to Africa any time soon. Very intersting reading! I wonder about those 350 grain bullets......

-Tutt

[TedH]

You guys are certainly making me feel the need to experiment with my Ruger 405. Never saw the potential before since I have a 375 H&H and the 470 NE, but this could be a real powerhouse too.

[CowboyTutt]

Yeah, I have a 375 H&H Ackley Improved for the big stuff. The 405 fills a niche between my 454 Puma and the 375 it seems. -Tutt

[Nath]

Good to hear from you crs and good to see you still messin' with big boomers

Nath.

[crs]

Leverluver:
YOU ARE THE MAN!
Thank you for contributing your expertise and experience. You saved some of us folks a lot of time running down blind alleys.
Still lots of fun stuff to look into, but will not waste time on the heresay that you clarified.

[86er]

Charles - I spoke to Craig, Steve Hornady and Marie (from Winchester). The rifles cannot function with the 400gr properly seated for full velocity of the Ruger #1 loads. They recommend the pressure not exceed the high 40's. One reason stated by all 3 was that the pressure increases somewhat with higher temperatures, a la Afria, causing sticky case ejection or failure to eject. Another comment made was that they "hot rodded" one while experimenting and ended up binding the lugs and seizing up the bolt. They distincly said the cartride in this rifle should NOT be loaded to touch the lands. I was told it actually works better for a number of reasons if it starts off the lands. The 400gr bullets can be loaded - but they thought a crimp groove in the proper place should be added using **I forget what kind of tool they called it** a tool. I was told the velocity can then be expected to reach 1750 fps. I can't confirm any of it but this is what was passed on from the "experts".

[crs]

Thanks Joe, for going to the trouble to check with those folks on this issue.
The consensus of informed opinion is that there is no reasonable way to use the .405 400 grainers through the Winchester 1895 magazine and I kind of like a repeater (would have a Ruger#1 if I wanted a single shot), so I will try to be a better shot with the 300 grainers and have you there for backup on the dangerous stuff!