black powder in leverguns

[KWK]

I recall reading the early, toggle action leverguns handled black powder fouling better than later actions. Any truth to this? I can see they would keep fouling out of much of the internals, but I can also imagine the elevator getting cruddy enough to cause some sticking. I've never shot BP in cartridge guns, so I have no feel for this.

Were any of the 1800s lever actions particularly good at coping with black powder fouling? Were any particularly bad at it?

[J Miller]

I recall reading the early, toggle action leverguns handled black powder fouling better than later actions. Any truth to this? I can see they would keep fouling out of much of the internals, but I can also imagine the elevator getting cruddy enough to cause some sticking. I've never shot BP in cartridge guns, so I have no feel for this.

Were any of the 1800s lever actions particularly good at coping with black powder fouling? Were any particularly bad at it?

With the exception of the 1860 Henry and 1866 Winchester which were chambered for the .44 Rim Fire cartridge, all the others were chambered for either a bottle necked case or I believe a tapered case.
If I'm correct the 45-70 and 45-60 are tapered not straight walled.

This combination of case shape, and the fact that the older cases were a bit thinner than what we have now allowed the cartridge cases to expand and seal the chambers effectively.

Modern made toggle action guns will still seal the chambers with black powder in their original calibers if properly prepared loads are used.
Those chambered in handgun cartridges can be made to seal if the cases are annealed to soften them a bit and loads kept above the squib levels.

joe

[Griff]

I've been shooting a Uberti 1873 clone in 45Colt w/BP since about 1986 in CAS. The lifter does get sticky after about 30-40 rounds. Weather is a factor, hotter is worse, high humidity also seems to help hold the fouling there. Over the years I've varied my load quite a bit, but early on I settled on RCBS' .45-225-CAV bulet w/SPG lube; powder charges have been anywhere from 21-22 grains of 2F up to 37-38.

Using the same loads in an 1892 clone yeilds similar accuracy and no greater loss of functionability. But, the action seems dirtier. Also, if a longer rest period is experienced, the '92 needs a cleaning, whereas the '73 seems to not. I've used everything from axle grease to dry graphite as an action lube with negligible change in results. Case/cartridge design & load data/techniques play a more important role than action design. Even shooting style (speed, # of rounds per string) plays a role.

There are those that say only bottle-neck BP rounds are approriate for leverguns... but, I find iit's more about how those straight-walled loads are assembled and components chosen than simply which cartridge. I will concede it's probably easier for the novice BP loader to assemble less fouling BN loads than the SW kind.

[KWK]

Thanks, that's the sort of information I was after, especially Griff's comments comparing the 92 to the 73.

Anyone here have enough experience to compare the 76, the 86, and Marlin's 1881?

As for cases, I had read several times on this site the .44 WCF is a much better choice for BP than the .45 Colt. Complaints about the weak case mouths on the early WCF cartridges can be found, but it seems there was a method to that madness.

[jeepnik]

I enjoy using black powder round in my GS frequently. Never had any problems with fouling causing operational difficulties beyond the usual barrel fouling one sees in all long guns using black powder cartridges. I must admit, I'm a bit less concerned about using the stainless model than I would a blued model. Clean up is a bit more complicated than most black powder arms, but I enjoy the look on faces when I haul it out. I've even had a couple of fellows on the black powder side of the range tell me I can't shoot it there. They pretty much shut up and move away when I fire the first round. With that short barrel, and all that black powder in the case, it smokes and flames real good at dusk.

[marlinman93]

I can personally attest to the falseness of that rumor! After trying blackpowder in many of my old Marlins from the 1881, 1888, 1889, 1893, etc. I can say that none of them handle BP better than smokeless. In fact the levr action repeaters will usually deposit a fair amount of residue and fouling into the action as the lever is worked and the case ejected.
On my 1881's it takes about 8-10 rounds to crud up the action so badly that it freezes up, ending my shooting time until I hose the action out with spray cleaner. After having to thoroughly clean and disassemble the 1881's when I got home to avaoid corrosion inside, I vowed to never use BP in a lever Marlin again. Still love it in my singleshots, but foget the levers for me!-Vall

[coyote nose]

I firmly believe todays BP is not the same as the BP they used in the 1800's. I have had guns refuse to function due to fouling after only a few shots with todays BP. There is no way the consumer back then whose life depended upon their gun would put up with that. I am convinced.

[Hobie]

When I read that a particular person fired X times 100 rounds in a gun fight with Indians (such as the scout at the Wagon Box fight) I have to agree. No way he stopped 5+ times to clean his gun even if he only shot 100 rounds. Of course one guy actually took the sideplate off his '73 and repaired the gun and went back to fighting.

[coyote nose]

Yes I heard that, altho the version I read did not pertain to the wagon box fight or powder fouling, the guy that took the sideplates off had a jammed cartridge in his 1873.. he took the sideplates off using his knife as a screwdriver.( I think i may even have his rifle, as most of my 1873's have buggered screws! .)
From a visit in 2000 at the wagon box battlefeld

[Griff]

I too, believe that BP of the 19th & early 20th century was of higher quality than that found today. Although, there are manufacturers that do have excellent quality, they're not readily available in the US. I still haven't been home to begin my testing of the Swiss I have, I'm told that it's MUCH better than Goex.

As Hobie noted, lives depended on its quality, much different than its' uses after the widespread adoption of smokeless. Ok, I might miss a shot and get the red, instead of a blue ribbon. Whooppee! Not life altering, but still aggravating. But, then, since Goex is pretty much the sole producer, the consumer gets short shrift (sp?).

[Fairshake]

For the most part the old guns were never fired as many times as we fire them in a cas match. If you are firing a Marlin the clean up is easy. Just remove the lever bolt and remove the firing pin block and it cleans like a bolt action. I shoot my marlin 50-70 shots in a match and it's still ready to go for more. The people who say they only got 7 shots before gum up were using bullets that I bet were lubed with smokeless lubes. Any oil based product is a no-no with BP. The fake stuff will shoot it with no problem. If you use a good BP lube and have a bullet that has generous lube grooves you can shoot BP until you get tired . It also cleans up easy, and faster than smokeless. A few squirts of moosemilk and a few patches down the barrel and it's clean.If you use the right tools shooting BP is a good way to enjoy that lever or other gun. Don't believe the rumors, talk to someone who does it every week. You can buy Goex, Graf's brand ( made by Wano in Germany) Swiss, KIK and some others. Swiss is the Benchmark, although Goex Cartridge has beat it out in some matches. I buy Goex because it's our last BP factory and located in my home state of Louisiana. I have bought and used some of the others thou. I think that we have very good BP today. What happens is that some people shoot the wrong componets and then blame it on the powder. I also make my own lube with good results.

[Old Time Hunter]

I struggle with the statements that BP was of higher quality back "then". Maybe true for some "store" bought stuff, but from reading old accounts and talking to old people that remember their grandfathers or even great grandfathers, that smelly compost pit covered in moldy hay that they dumped cow pee on in the back yard, along with a pound of sulfer they bought at the General Store, then chip'n the charred brisket off of burned logs...is what most of my clan used.

[w30wcf]

I recall reading the early, toggle action leverguns handled black powder fouling better than later actions. Any truth to this? I can see they would keep fouling out of much of the internals, but I can also imagine the elevator getting cruddy enough to cause some sticking. I've never shot BP in cartridge guns, so I have no feel for this.

Were any of the 1800s lever actions particularly good at coping with black powder fouling? Were any particularly bad at it?

KWK,
I have read that back in the 1860's a HENRY rifle was fired 1,000 times without cleaning and was still functioning aok.
The barrel was a bit fouled though.

The .44 Henry cartridge case was made from copper which is fairly soft and thus would expand and keep pressure against the chamber walls lessening any chance that the action would become fouled and cease to function well.

It is not the rifle action type, but the combination of the cartridge / chamber dimensions and the hardness of the cartridge case that will determine whether the fouling is contained in the barrel or is allowed to escape past the cartridge case and into the action.

The earliest .45-70 cartridges were also copper and thus would also seal well. To replicate the early .45-70 case sealing capabilities, one needs to anneal modern brass to improve its sealing capabilities.

The Winchester .44 W.C.F. (.44-40) cartridge was designed in 1873 with thin walls in the case neck (.007" typical) and thus expanded and sealed the chamber well. I have an original '73 and a current Marlin Cowboy rifle in this chambering and both continue to function flawlessly with b.p. cartridges with negligible fouling in the action. The same can be said for the .38 W.C.F. (.38-40) and .32 W.C.F. (.32-20).

On the other hand, today's .45 Colt chambered leverguns typically have .010"+ windage (clearance) between the cartridge case and chamber, and with case neck thicknesses at about .012" typical, the chances for fouling into the action greatly increase. In my .45 Colt rifle I use cases with annealed necks that are fireformed to the chamber and neck size only. Thus they seal up the chamber just fine.

w30wcf

[rusty gunns]

For cas, I shoot black powder out of my shotgun, cap n ball guns, open top 45's and my 1858 conversion.

I have an 1866 in 44-40 and an 1873 in 45 colt (both Uberti's), Both are essentially the same gun.

I can shoot Bp out of the 66 (in 44-40) all day and never have to even chase the barrel. My 205gr bullets have two lube groves full of spg as well as a crimp grove (from http://www.powderinc.com). And since it is a tapered cartridge, the action stays incredibly clean. There is almost zero blow back.

The 73 in 45 colt is another story. With cowboy pressure loads, the straight case allows everything to blow back and dirty up the action. When I up the pressure and shoot 7 grains of 231 under the 250gr bullet it stays nice and clean.

The only way to shoot black powder in a rifle and keep the innards clean is with a necked or tapered cartridge. 38-40, 44-40, 45-70, 45-60, 45-75.