Suspect 92 Resurfaces

[Cimarron Red]

Here's a link to a new listing on GunsAmerica, now priced at $22,000! Look familiar?

http://www.gunsamerica.com/966203284/Gu ... 0.htm?wl=1#

[Mike Hunter]

Suspect?

I looked at the pics... looks like a nice 92

Has this rifle been the topic of conversation before? What makes it suspect?

Thanks

Mike

[Cimarron Red]

Hi, Mike,

Many of us believe it's been rebarrelled, likely by the factory.

[Mike Hunter]

Ok, obviously I’m missing something here, why is it suspected ob being rebarreled? Is there a factory work order on it?

Even if it was rebarreled at the factory, is that an issue?

Help me out?

Mike

[Mike D.]

Mike, the most obvious concern about this gun are the barrel markings. They are NOT the markings that you would find on a 1910 vintage 1892. The gun was probably sent back to Winchester sometime in the late 1920s for a rebarrel and refinish. That being said, it is most certainly not as represented by the seller. IF it was an original 1910 gun, with a correctly marked barrel, it still would not be worth anywhere near $22K. IMO, '92s just haven't reached that plateau. Opinions are just that, and worth nothing in the "real world". Perhaps someone will want that "new" Winchester and fork over the bucks.

[deerwhacker444]

Wasn't the last price we saw it sell for 8k-9k.? It must have really gone up in value in the last 2 weeks.

[Hobie]

Mike,

Seems some are following this gun just like some folks follow "Ice Road Truckers" for the entertainment value. It has gone from about $9K to the $22K level. Don't quite know why.

[Griff]

It sold on GB for $11K. Yes, we discussed it on Wanna NEW WINCHESTER 1892? where it was decribed as a 1907 mfg'd 1892, now it's being described as a 1910. Seller on GB also stated. "Rifle will letter as is and I will include the Cody letter with it." Now under GA, the seller states: "(Records are not available for this vintage rifle so there is no factory letter.)" My feelings is that it would still fetch a premium as a factory rebarrel, if it could be proven. However, without the invoice I don't know how one would go about doing that.

KirkD (or anyone else), would only a factory rebarrel get the proof mark on the barrel, or would a replacement barrel sent to a gunsmith also get one? Also, didn't factory re-worked guns get a "X" (or was that a "R") at the end of their serial number?

Sure looks like the same gun. I wonder how many 1892s there are around that look that good AND have serial # 537XXX?

[Mike Hunter]

I suspect it was a parts clean up rifle, built after Winchester discontinued the 92 line. They sold a lot of stuff at nearly scrap value. I’ve got a brand new 86 frame that was never assembled.

Even so, how many 92 rifles have you seen still with the box? Not a whole lot of them out there and for someone that wants perfection…here it is.

Barrels that were meant for gunsmith installation were generally marked as such, with a second larger VP marking. I don’t seen one on the barrel, but it might be on the right side.

The changing description is fairly suspect.

[Gun Smith]

Griff, barrels that were sold by Winchester as replacement to outside installers had a "P" in an oval after 1912 on the barrel. I seem to remember that later FACTORY replaced barrels had two proof marks on them. But I can't find where I saw that. THe factory Winchester proof mark is a "P" with a "W" on the "P" leg inside an oval. Letters (A or B)after serial numbers (for the 1873) are usually only factory work marks.

[Griff]

...I’ve got a brand new 86 frame that was never assembled...

Likewise I have a '94 frame that was never assembled ('63 per the serial #).

Thanks for the additional info on replacement barrels.

[Mike D.]

That barrel, by what I can tell from the photos, is a factory product. The barrels sold to gunsmiths have a "P" within a horizontal oval as a definitive proof. Sometimes, this is in addition to the standard "PW" proofs set vertically in an oval. The after-market proof appears above the standard proof, and on the same plane, which is usually on the barrel top.

[Hillbilly]

After I saw the price the first go-round I sorta tuned out...

Is the latest seller the same as the first? or is the new seller the guy who got stuck a couple of weeks ago?
Jeff

[J Miller]

For that to be a 1910 or whatever vintage rifle, shouldn't that barrel be marked "Model 1892" rather than "Model 92"?


Joe

[Mike D.]

For that to be a 1910 or whatever vintage rifle, shouldn't that barrel be marked "Model 1892" rather than "Model 92"?


Joe

No, Joe, the barrel would only be marked with the patent dates, the caliber, and the proof stamp. There would be no model designation on the barrel, only on the top tang. The model designation was placed on the barrel in the 1920s, after serial number 900,000+.

[Sixgun]

That '92 is a factory refinish and I'd go as far to bet my '86 src on it. I said it before on the other post and I'll say it again. The wood is too dark for a "new" rifle. The barrel address was not rolled on until after the 900,000 serial number which was around 1919. I do not see a receiver hanging around in the parts bin that was made in 1910 to 1919 in a time when Winchesters were a hot commodity and were selling soon after forging.
I have an extra lightweight 1886 in 45-90 that was factory refinished before the war (WW1) and there is NO way the best man in the world can tell it was refinished without removing the buttstock and seeing "refinished" stamped on the inner part of the upper tang.
Yea, there are exclusions to this but before I dish out 22 big ones, I'm gonna look real hard. Besides, it IS an 1892 and a 25-20 at that. Come on, its not a 50-110 Ex. '86. The best I would do is about 7g's if.................it was right.

Below is the proof mark and oval "P" that Winchester used on their mail order barrels. Its on a 1913 produced 1890 in .22 L.R. And below that is an original wooden crate that I need nine more 1890's to fill her up.
,
yea, I got some major restoring to do on this one,

[Mike D.]

Ain't that what we've all been saying?

[marlinman93]

Seems the previous buyer just bought it to resell!

[Mike D.]

Yep, the same gang that make the repro Lyman #21 and 38 sights. Cabela's got nothin' on them when it comes to jacking up prices.

I sent them an "educational" e-mail that they declined to acknowledge. IMO, they aren't worth dealing with.

[KirkD]

Seller says the hang tag is dated to 1911. However, the barrel markings were not in existence until at least 1919, as pointed out by others. So the hang tag cannot be for that rifle in the configuration it is now in. The lack of the mail order proof on the barrel is an indication that it was a factory rebarrel. So here's one scenario:

Gun was originally purchased in 1911 and the buyer saved the hang tag (assuming that hang tag is actually for that rifle). At least 8 years later, the owner sends it back to Winchester for rebarrelling. At that time the gun is refinished, but not the wood, which seems way too dark for being mint, or being refinished.

The scenario does not make sense, however, unless the gun was well used and needed a new barrel. But if it was well used, then the wood should show it, but it does not ..... but it is too dark to have been refinished.

Bottom Line: I'd agree with others that it is a factory re-finish and, as such, a desirable rifle, but not $22K desirable!

[JerryB]

On Kirk's rebarrel, it might have had the barrel bent in a horse wreck or something else to need a rebarrel job.

[Mike Hunter]

Well Don Grove has one just like it, with a better looking box for $8900

So if anybody is really interested buy Don's and send me a 10% finder's fee

As to the barrel, who knows…. I recently talk to a guy with an 86, the caliber (barrel) had been changed three times before it left the factory…crazy things happen.

This thing may have been a 32, sitting around because everyone wanted the larger cals, then some dealer gets an order for ten 25 cals, swap the bbl on that 32 and get it out.

Or a dealer has it in his inventory….can’t sell it as a 32, send it back , get cal changed.
Or as I said earlier, parts clean up gun.


Mike

[Sixgun]

Well Don Grove has one just like it, with a better looking box for $8900

So if anybody is really interested buy Don's and send me a 10% finder's fee

As to the barrel, who knows…. I recently talk to a guy with an 86, the caliber (barrel) had been changed three times before it left the factory…crazy things happen.

This thing may have been a 32, sitting around because everyone wanted the larger cals, then some dealer gets an order for ten 25 cals, swap the bbl on that 32 and get it out.

Or a dealer has it in his inventory….can’t sell it as a 32, send it back , get cal changed.
Or as I said earlier, parts clean up gun.


Mike

Mike, I will agree with you on the "crazy things happen". All of us in the game for a long time have seen these things. Even with SA Colts, there are the weird roll stamps on the wrong side of the barrel, calibers made long after Colt discontinued them, etc. and ...........when one of us has a gun like that, its easy to convince ourselves about the limitless explainations but just try to convince a potential buyer.----especially a buyer (like me!) who has spent some time in the "school of hard knocks"

A few years ago an experienced collector buddy stopped by with a deluxe 1886 in 45-90---with a factory letter-------that he picked up for 35 c-notes. I took one look at it and just had to laugh. I handed it back to him and told him he was robbed. (He thought HE did the robbing) The gun was made in 1894 and the tang of the receiver had the italisized writing which did not come out until the twenties. He was trying to tell me that "maybe the receiver was replaced". Yea, maybe, but not with a lower tang that had a different color of blue. It was obvious it was a parts gun that someone was just lucky enough to have the parts to put together. It would never convince me as old collectors say, "If in doubt, do without".

Oh! Don Grove--If he has one for 89, we all know its worth about 50---That guy adds about 30% to everything but.........he does have nice stuff------------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

Mike, you are spot on about the '92 that Don has. That gun has it ALL OVER Columbia Precision's refinished example. IMO, the round barrel is a real plus, but nobody has ever accused me of not being different.

[Cimarron Red]

Just a word on the hang tag: It seems to me that a such tag, now approaching 100 years of age, would be yellowed, brittle and tattered. So my guess is that this tag is a repro. Any thoughts?

[Mike D.]

It all depends on the composition of the paper itself. Cheap rag will often turn brown, due to the reaction of acidic materials it is stored with. Some high grade linens will retain their white color as long as they are not exposed to light. You may be absolutely correct on this tag, too. Notice how brown the other papers are within that discolored old cheap cardboard carton? Why is the "circa 1910" tag not stained accordingly? The chemical reaction to it's being stored in that carton, along with the greased rifle, would've stained it accordingly. The entire "deal" stinks.

[Cimarron Red]

Mike D,

I agree. I can't imagine that Winchester used anything but acid paper for those tags.

[KirkD]

There is a good chance that it is a legitimate, factory re-finished Model 1892/92. The box may even be the original box it was shipped back from the factory in after it had been re-barrelled/refinished. The hang-tag, however, matches the serial number, but not the barrel markings. I got no problem with the rifle itself being a legitimate, factory job (re-barrel/refinish or early receiver mated with later barrel). He hasn't got a snowball's chance on the surface of the sun of selling it for $22,000 I wonder what went wrong with the last sale.