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jd45 wrote:You are WRONG, Ed. What you should've said is "IN MY OPINION, case-hardening is ugly." As the saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the looker". jd45
Either way you say it, in some cases, Color Case Hardening is UGLY.
You could start a thread that says, Color Case Hardening is BEAUTIFUL. If you do you will be WRONG.
Sometimes it only takes 120 years for case hardening to properly "develope".
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
Leverdude wrote:It can be pretty vivid sometimes, but thats what they looked like new. Some like vanilla, some like chocolate.
I like vanilla AND chocolate.
Old Shatterhand, what is your source on the use of old boots? I would presume that if old boots were used all old leather gear including harnesses would have been used. In so much as recycling used to be a way of life it wouldn't surprise me but the primary source could be very interesting and useful.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
I wouldn't do what you did, Ed. If I were to do it, I'd start a thread that says, "In My Opinion"............. that way I wouldn't be WRONG, like you are. jd45
Mike D. wrote:Sometimes it only takes 120 years for case hardening to properly "develope".
Now that's a nice looking Color Case Hardening job (nice and subdued) and a nice rifle Mike. Thanks for the picture. Is that an 1886?
Yep, it's my 1889 vintage $700 .38-56. All original, no pitting anywhere, and a very nice bore. See, all the '86s don't cost thousands.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
Old Shatterhand wrote:Husqvarna got some greenish teint in the charcoal case hardening by adding old military boots to the charcoal.
I would guess that it's not the leather per se that adds to the color rather the carbuerization of the tanning salts/chemicals that might cause the greens. Perhaps choromium related. Not sure what they used to tan leather back then.
... I love poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
Personally count me in for CCH on most period guns.
Sixgun...I am impressed with your '88 Trapdoor's breech block. Best original water quenched CCH I've seen in awhile. Betcha Ed would like the oil quenched CCH breech blocks of the '73-'83 models, not quite as vivid, almost like bluing.
Hate to stereotype, but it appears the Northern California guys seem to have aversion towards the CCH. Just an observation.
Old Shatterhand wrote:Husqvarna got some greenish teint in the charcoal case hardening by adding old military boots to the charcoal.
I would guess that it's not the leather per se that adds to the color rather the carbuerization of the tanning salts/chemicals that might cause the greens. Perhaps choromium related. Not sure what they used to tan leather back then.
Rimfire should be right as I have understood - the tanning salt are the thing. I wish I could give a good source to tell more about it, but I have read about it some years ago in some articles, and also heard about it in discussions. It was said that they used old leather boots, but any old leather would do as good.
I didn't expect my few words to attract that attention. It looks like I have to dig into the stack of old magazines and search for those articles.
Regards,
Old Sh.
Winchester model 88 .308 WCF
Winchester model 71 .348 WCF
Thanks for the reply; as most of you know I do CCH here in the shop, and always have an interest in some obscure information on how other companies did it.
As far as old shoes; yes , the use of old shoes, saddles, leather products has been mentioned quite often for case hardening., but generally for the small shops and home shop type folks.
For a large scale production, it wouldn’t do to well, for a variety of reasons:
First and foremost, you would have no control over the quality of leather, and foreign debris embedded in the leather. Nails, rocks, dirt, shoe polish, saturated with motor oil etc. yes, putting used motor oil on boots was a way to preserve them, especially the military out in the field. All that “crud” would have a detrimental impact on the case hardening.
Secondly you would never have a guaranteed supply of “old Leather”, one month you may have a ton, next six months you may have none.
Given that, it may be easier to find a salt/chemical used in the older tanning processes that you could powder down and add to the packing in small quantities to adjust the colors .... perhaps? Maybe a copper salt.
... I love poetry, long walks on the beach, and poking dead things with a stick.
Then again…. Which process did they use for tanning the leather? Un-tanned leather is known as Buckskin, basically dehaired, & dried animal skin, not very durable.
Leather is Buckskin that has been tanned; older processes of tanning involved the use of dung, urine, animal brains, cedar oil, alum, salt, tannic acid (from chestnut, oak, tanoak, hemlock trees).
Each one of these processes involved different chemicals; Brain tanned hides would use different compounds than a tannin tanned hide, or urine tanned hide. Different tanners would use their own “secret recipe”. So again no uniform compound that is common to all leathers except for the hide itself.
Years ago, when I was doing research on CCH, trying to get the perfect "Winchester" colors; many of these same ideas ran thru my head. Spent quite a while redearching these very ideas, have amassed quite a library on turn of the century Case Hardening processes.
The biggest thing that I've come to realize is that Case hardening was an industrial process; which was not unique to the firearms. The automotive, railroad, and tool industries did quite a bit of Case hardening.
Many of the improved steels used in latter firearms, were initially developed for the automotive & airplane industries.
It looks fine if it's the real thing on a vintage firearm. The wild tie-dye stuff that seems to be en vouge right now looks very ugly to me, and is an excuse for the FAILURE of modern arms makers to provide a quality blue. It gets really weird when you see revolvers that were never made in the 19th century given the treatment. S&W had a batch of them like this over the past few years.
Modoc Ed, I just re-read your reply to my post. I now understand that you meant that only SOME examples of case-hardening are ugly , in your opinion. I apologize for trying to start a peeing contest on the subject. jd45
Well dang Griff -- good to see ya back posting. Nice looking guns.
Yes, I know some CCH is nice looking but some of the newer stuff is just plain garish. I could have worded the title of this thread a little differently but felt that this title would get the most response and I wanted a good discussion on this topic.
Some like vanilla, some like chocolate.
