.45acp V. .357---Let's Settle This Once and For All

[Doc Hudson]

The pass is an honest 10,000,
I am at 7,300

7,300.......Brrrrrrr,... sunny 4,500 here.

Y'all can just call me a Lowlander. i live on a ridge that is 339 feet above sea level, and for the prceeding 10 years i lived at 127 feet abobe sea level in the Mississippi Delta.
FWIW it has been snowing around heere yesterday and today, with more forcast for Thursday. only about the fifth or sixth time in over 100 years.

[Doc Hudson]

I don't think anyone has ever said the .357 is some kind of weakling!

Chuck Taylor has been known to say that very thing in print. he is also one of the fools spreading the happy horse manure claiming that a .230 FMJ will sto a fight 19 times out of 20.

What can i say, the man is an idiot.

[allhands]

I can't fault either round for stopping the fight, as I have thankfully never had to shoot in self defense. In my humble opinion, you need to look at things from a concealed carry perspective. Unless your in the woods up here, you're going to carry a CONCEALED handgun. That being said, my S&W model 36 in .38 special is far more convenient,ie lighter and more easily concealed. And if you can't solve your defense situation with 5 rounds of .38 Spec, you should have brought a SWAT team.(or stayed home).

As for self defense in the woods, I carry a 1911 with 9 rounds, alternating 200 gr. hollowpoints and 230 ball. If ANY critter up here is still coming at me after I have unloaded at it, I deserve to be it's dinner...

[Triggernosis]

Let me put my flame suit on for this one:

If you get the willies from handling a semi-automatic pistol, you need to go back to school! A gun is a gun is a gun; you need to be comfortable with picking one or another up at any given time. THAT is the definition of a professional gun handler.

And THAT is exactly why I prefer a revolver, because I do not consider myself a professional gun handler. I do, however, consider myself a professional marksman with what I'm comfortable using.

[Grizz]

Blaine, don't have any pictures for proof just my Sunday school teacher friend and my grandson watch me put a 240 grain Hornady XTP HP over 7 grains of Unique through nine gallon jugs of water. I will get my grandson to try his Sprinfield GI .45 and one of our .357 pistols and see how they do. But not till it warms up.

it's all about the bullet. I can make a .357 load that cannot penetrate, or that can, same as the .45.

and it's all about the scenario. cops have given up revolvers for the same reason I now carry the XD: capacity. they were running out of bullets and getting dead because of it.

let's see, I can strap on my .357 with six rounds or my XD with 13, or more rounds. which one is gonna be more better in the common defense scenario? if you assume one bg with one six gun, then a six gun can be the equalizer. but if you read the newspapers and see that the most common criminal action is a home invasion with three bgs all armed, then I want some more volume of fire available to me...

or to put it another way, I don't want to be the first one with an empty gun.

Grizz

[Doc Hudson]

or to put it another way,e the first one with an empty gun[/color].

Grizz

Ever hear of a "New York Reload?"

Packing a second gun makes good sense sometimes.

[Grizz]

yeah Doc

that's why I sometimes have the 9 in my boot top... that can put my ammo count up to abt 25 some rounds..... LOL

[Blaine]

Let's say there were only two of us left and we didn't like each other - I sure hope you've got a 45 ACP because I'd have a 357 Magnum. Now all I have to do is stay 50 yards from you and I'd not worry about a thing.

Hey TripleT, this is too easy, of course the 357 Magnum is better and out classes the slow stumply one in every way. Most everyone knows that. Settled.

With all due respect, and I'm not that great a shot, but a 2 liter pop bottle at 50yds has a very, very short life span when I've got the 1911 warmed up a bit. At 100+, I would not recommend presenting much of a target if you wished to survive. Chicken Dancing bad guys at 100yds are DRT...YMMV, but I work at it some.

[RIHMFIRE]

I have both revolver and auto.
The wheel gun sits in the house.
The auto gets carried, but not in the woods,
that is what the 629 is for.

dittos on that
Its kinda hard to conceal a big 6" 629 in Florida

[tman]

how about a glock 27 40s&w loaded with BUFFALOE BORE 180 jhp&FMJ loadede conversely in 9,11, 13, 15, and 29 shot magazines. maybe a good COMPROMISE gun between the other 2?

[Doc Hudson]

yeah Doc

that's why I sometimes have the 9 in my boot top... that can put my ammo count up to abt 25 some rounds..... LOL

My two gun rig is generally a 4" M-686 or 4.75" uberti SAA in .44 S&W Special on the belt and an S&W M-640 in my pocket.

I figure that if I can't handle things with ten or eleven shots, I either should have had a rifle in hand at the beginning or I should have stayed at home.

[Griff]

Sorry Blaine,



Carried a GI issue .45 for almost my entire 4 years, in combat, guard & security details. NEVER felt undergunned.

Entered LE work, ossued a S&W mdl 10, replaced that w/a mdl 19, and then a 65. Initially only allowed .38Spl, upgraded in mid '80s to +P. Never felt underpowered after we went to the +Ps.

Here's the reason, I practiced 3 times a week (other 4 were PT days)!

Now let me tell ya about 3 shootings. #1 - 2 PC detectives, 1 uniform vs. 1 perp w/shotgun. Perp shot det #1 in chest w/birdshot (#12s as I recall); det #2 is chased out of residence w/buckshot going everywhere (IIRC wounding him in buttocks). Uniform is caught inside w/perp, but bails out bathroom window only to find perp rounding corner of home. Uniform's 1st shot is COM and plants perp against a tree. Perp being upright & armed, uniform puts 11 more into him b4 perps falls to ground. (Coroner later rules 1st shot was fatal). LEOs all survive.

#2 - Uniform responds to "man w/knife" call (public disturbance). Man chases uniform around police car while uniform calls for man to calm down . Finally man lunges over trunk of car at LEO who draws weapon and fires one round thru chest. Knife AND perp fall to ground.

#3 - Uniform in marked unit on routine patrol encounters ratty, parked, out-of-state vehicle in hi- dolloar neighborhood under construction @ 2am. While waiting for license info, driver started out, LEO also started out but perp fired two shots from deringer, striking car & LEO in forehead. Uniform calls for back up, but another car had already started toward him b4 the dispatcher informed everyone the vehicle was wanted out of VA for armed robbery & a murder. LEOs 2 & 3 arrived as perp #1 reloaded and an exchange ensued. Rather uneven, 2 vs. 18. LEOs 2 & 3 unscathed, perp hit 11 times. Perp #2 remained hidden and surrendered w/o a fight.

In the aftermath, of shooting #1, quals went from annually to bi-annual and ammo from JFP std velocity to +P, ½J, HPs. Detectives WILL qualify w/carry leather, guns & ammo. After #2, everyone patted themselves on the back, and I really just don't recall any other changes.

After #3, agency chief calls investigation why perp lived after 11 hits. (I'm sure it was titled something else). IIRC, department's review panel recommend .45ACP in Sig or 1911 platform. Blue-ribbon panel recommends .40 in Sig or Glocks. Paid panel of "industry consultants" recommend 9mm, 147gr JHP in Beretta 92Fs. The several good things that ensued were that if you wanted, you could carry just about anything non-magnum. BUT, quals went to quarterly with all firearms on duty or off duty lists, passing scores were raised, and academy opened "Hogan's Alley" type facility.

I don't care what y'all say, caliber & platform are not very important. Training, familiarization & mental preparadeness will carry the day. It is my NSHO, that anyone who sez "this caliber' or "that firearm" is the BEST for ???, probably doesn't understand the dynamics of an armed encounter.

Ok, flame suit on, now fire away!

[JerryB]

Good post Griff, thanks.

[Blaine]

Too far off course: It's between the .357 and .45acp only We are taking for granted that the wielder can hit what he's aiming for under duress.... I carry a .22 AirLite most of the time and feel comfortable, so that's not what I'm talking about. Just .357 V .45acp

[awp101]

Just .357 V .45acp

Just a shot in the dark here Blaine, but were you expecting a higher caliber of discussion?

























Gotcha...

[Blaine]

Just .357 V .45acp

Just a shot in the dark here Blaine, but were you expecting a higher caliber of discussion?

























Gotcha...

What a bore.....

[COSteve]

Just .357 V .45acp

Just a shot in the dark here Blaine, but were you expecting a higher caliber of discussion?

























Gotcha...

What a bore.....

Shoot!

Looks like some are aiming for a roughup!

I suggest we target those who want to stir things up.

Maybe we should just let them squeeze off a couple of licks and be done with it.

Or, we could go a few rounds with them just to make sure they aren't shooting blanks.

[Griff]

Blaine,

I know that is far afield, but sorta the point of my post. There isn't any "VERSUS". Just as a posthole digger & a plow are tools for planting something in the ground, one shouldn't attempt to use one for the other's job. You might be able to dig a post hole with a plow, but it wouldn't be very efficient... likewise, plantin' corn with a post hole digger would also be rather tedious.

So too with the .357 Magnum and .45ACP. Each has uses it excels at, and each has areas that it has something left wanting. Each has a wide range of potential, and has components that help meet that potential. But, bullets in the weights that the .45ACP shines, the .357 falls short... and so to the .45ACP falls far short of the .357 where it shines.

Frankly, I couldn't image being without either.

Again, you can flame away, but; IMNSHO, there's no VERSUS when it comes to the .357 and the .45ACP.


{Whisper mode on} Although, Joe is dead right... the .45Colt is BETTER than either {whisper mode off}!

[awp101]

Just .357 V .45acp

Just a shot in the dark here Blaine, but were you expecting a higher caliber of discussion?


Gotcha...

What a bore.....

Just as long as you aren't upset, I'd be all choked up if you were...

[Nixterdemus]

When this thread dies out can we kick start it by discussing the best HD scattergun loads which would be the 00 camp vs anything and everything else?

[76/444]

Yup,...+1, Griff! It's not what you use, but how you use it!

I think that fellas that feel the need for this caliber or that,... seem to be depending more on the caliber to defend themselves than their skill.

Until a very specific threat is identified, or knowledge of a need for a special caliber is gathered,... anything more than a stick will do for me.

[COSteve]

I've noticed that for the most part, this thread has steered itself towards the self defense properties of both calibers. The OP mentioned field use for 4 legged critters too and there I believe that in a pistol, the 357mag has the advantage over the 45acp.

Addressing 76/444's comment, I agree that defense of one's choice in pistol may be a driver for many, however, I'm not siding with the 357mag because I'm defending mine, in fact I don't currently own a 357mag pistol. Many years ago I had a nice single action but economics at the time forced a sale. I'm currently considering a nice blued 6" GP100 but we'll have to see how the finances go this spring.

I do own a 6" 45acp as well as 2ea 40s&w and of course my 10mm and have shot all extensively. I just think the 357mag performs better against more thick skinned animals when using a heavy hardcast bullet than the 45acp does.

[Grizz]

I just think the 357mag performs better against more thick skinned animals when using a heavy hardcast bullet than the 45acp does.

This can be tested. I'm going to load the 230 TC in my 45s for a game load and I'll do pen tests on it when I get that far. I'll do some side-by-sides with my lonely safe-queen low capacity revolvers just to make 'em feel wanted.....

Grizz

[Charles]

Jeff Cooper's column was entitled "The Gunner's Guru", and it was self appointed. He was very knowledable and made a very large contribution to American shooting sports. That said, he was not all knowing and without adgendas and hobby horses to ride.

With good ammo and in the hands of a good man with a hundgun, both the .357 Mag. and the 45 ACP are more than adequate for either defense or woods use. Any failures will be due to poor ammo choice or the nut behind the grip. Trying to establish a theoricial advantage of one over the other is a waste of time and energy.

[madman4570]

Jeepers after all this, now I feel neither is enough gun??(I feel I need my 454 Casull)
and my Buck General!

Group Hug Time!

[jkbrea]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I have a story to relate that may be related to this issue. A few guys I work with wanted to change from issued .45s to 357 sig when it came out. Reading up on the caliber it was supposed to be near identical ballistically to the 357 magnum. I read a report where back east officers were involved in a shooting where the suspect tried to run down several people with a large tractor that had an enclosed driver area. Several officers shot. The .45's did not penetrate the enclosure but the 357 sig did and ended the situation. We tested several factory rounds against car doors and windows. The 357 sig definately out penetrated our .45, 9mm, and 40. That being said, all our officers went back to the .45. especially when they allowed 1911 models over our Sig P220 which are breaking down regularly. Since most confrontation, at least with the two legged critters, are normally within spitting distance, either caliber is more than adequate. On another note, I spoke with a retired LAPD cop who told me the reason most agencies quit using the .357 was purely politcal and PC. The term "magnum", especially after the Dirty Harry movies, offended people and made it look like police were using overkill. I believe this because my own adminstrators have told me we can carry 357's or 44's, but no magnum loads.

I agree with the poster that said bullet choice is important. A coworker shot a suspect in a gunfight from about 8 feet away through a car windshield hitting him four times in the skull with a .45 using silvertips. Suspect was in the driver seat firing. That guy was up walking and talking one year later after a lengthy hospital stay.

[fordwannabe]

I solved the problem for me...I have several of each(and other calibers too). I use them more for individual situations than interchangably but I feel comfortable with both and have never felt "Undergunned" with either. If I am going horse riding I probably will take a revolver(sA or DA) if long car ride probably an auto but maybe not. I think part of the reason I don't prefer one over the other is that I practice, use, carry both until I am comfortable. Just my opinion. Tom

[Blaine]

Without a doubt, my 4 5/8" SuperBlackHawk is a superior killer, but like I said, this is just the two aforementioned calibers......I have a good buddy that thinks I'm an idiot (no comments ) for having a 1911 in the woods the other day instead of a .357.......Oregon bears and cat were a possibility and we commenced to slinging stuff at each other I need to find some of those 230 TC FMJs and load them for serious penetration in dangrous things.......

[Griff]

I've noticed that for the most part, this thread has steered itself towards the self defense properties of both calibers. The OP mentioned field use for 4 legged critters too and there I believe that in a pistol, the 357mag has the advantage over the 45acp.

Actually, the original post read:

.357 is THE BOMB out of a rifle, but the proper handgun platform for protection in the woods or city is the 1911 and the .45acp.... Col. Cooper said so and that's good enough for me. I personally watched 230fmj go thru 7 gallon milk jugs full of water and that's 'nuff said Flame Suit On

"...in the woods or city..." does sorta imply the inclusion of 4-legged predators. I do believe your post @ the end of pg 1 was the first ACTUAL mention of "4-legged".

I tend to think in terms of where I hunt or amble thru the woods, and I still don't know of any predators I'd put in the "thick skinned" category. Avoidance is a good policy when discussing any "thick-skinned", attitudinally mal-adjusted critters; i.e. razor-backs, feral hogs, even packs of javelina. Other North American predators I'd put in the "less than thick-skinned" category.

But then, when I'm deer hunting, I generally carry a Colt SAA in .45COLT.

[tman]

i remember the oldtimers stories about tent camping in bearcountry during hunting season. they would take turns on watch in the front of the tent with a .45acp. these were all ww1 and ww2 combat vets who knew how to shoot and none of them read gun magazines. none of them got eaten by a bear, LUCKILY ,they didn't know any better

[76/444]

I just think the 357mag performs better against more thick skinned animals when using a heavy hardcast bullet than the 45acp does.

This can be tested. I'm going to load the 230 TC in my 45s for a game load and I'll do pen tests on it when I get that far. I'll do some side-by-sides with my lonely safe-queen low capacity revolvers just to make 'em feel wanted.....

Grizz

Being that the 357 has better sectional density, I believe those tests could be a forgone conclusion? I think (if memory serves me) both calibers are right around a SD of 175. But, the 45 has the advantage of almost 75 grs. more weight. If you could load equal weight slugs, at equal velocity, I think it would show just how much better penetration the 357 really has.



just one man's opinion,

[Griff]

I just think the 357mag performs better against more thick skinned animals when using a heavy hardcast bullet than the 45acp does.

This can be tested. I'm going to load the 230 TC in my 45s for a game load and I'll do pen tests on it when I get that far. I'll do some side-by-sides with my lonely safe-queen low capacity revolvers just to make 'em feel wanted.....
Grizz

Being that the 357 has better sectional density, I believe those tests could be a forgone conclusion? I think (if memory serves me) both calibers are right around a SD of 175. But, the 45 has the advantage of almost 75 grs. more weight. If you could load equal weight slugs, at equal velocity, I think it would show just how much better penetration the 357 really has.
just one man's opinion,

An old adage sez that the slow, heavy slug will penetrate farther that a lighter, faster slug. This was borne out in those old buffalo guns. Additionally, these larger diameter boolits have more surface area that helps transfer the kenetic energy from the projectile to the target. While these differences between the .357 and .45 are not great, they ARE what gives the .45 its reputation.

[Griff]

double tap

[Modoc ED]

Good Lord!!!! By the time some of you guys figure out which caliber to use and which platform is best to deliver it, you will have been run over by any 4-legged or 2-legged critter threatening you.

Either caliber put forth by the OP (Blaine) in this post is sufficient for the purposes he proposed. The 1911 platform he proposed my not be the best choice for all but it is a danged capable platform.

[76/444]

I just think the 357mag performs better against more thick skinned animals when using a heavy hardcast bullet than the 45acp does.

This can be tested. I'm going to load the 230 TC in my 45s for a game load and I'll do pen tests on it when I get that far. I'll do some side-by-sides with my lonely safe-queen low capacity revolvers just to make 'em feel wanted.....
Grizz

Being that the 357 has better sectional density, I believe those tests could be a forgone conclusion? I think (if memory serves me) both calibers are right around a SD of 175. But, the 45 has the advantage of almost 75 grs. more weight. If you could load equal weight slugs, at equal velocity, I think it would show just how much better penetration the 357 really has.
just one man's opinion,

An old adage sez that the slow, heavy slug will penetrate farther that a lighter, faster slug. This was borne out in those old buffalo guns. Additionally, these larger diameter boolits have more surface area that helps transfer the kenetic energy from the projectile to the target. While these differences between the .357 and .45 are not great, they ARE what gives the .45 its reputation.

Well ,... I think you have your "old adage" confuZed,... an ice pick traveling at 10mph will penetrate more deeply than a bowling ball at 10 mph. Simple physics, guy. Yes the bowling ball will have more kinetic energy,.... but, all I read in Grizz's first post was about testing for PENETRATION. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Poohgyrr]

Shucks. I keep a 16" Lever in both .357 and .45 (Colt) nearby



.

Oh, yeah. Same for pistols too, although these days the .357 is likely an eight shooting moonclipped S&W. Same number of shots as the 1911. Same number of shots as the Garand too, but that's not a wimpy .357 or .45. Garands shoot real bullets: you know - small caliber and high velocity.

[Machado]

In times of frivolous lawsuits, one must be extra careful with the .45. I've heard that the second shot from a .45 is, usually, profanation of the corpse.
Antonio

Good to see you here again Antonio!!! Great opening comment, too!

Thank you, Hobie. I'm up and running again.
Best,
Antonio

[rjohns94]

so much for settling this once and for all.

[Grizz]

Being that the 357 has better sectional density, I believe those tests could be a forgone conclusion? I think (if memory serves me) both calibers are right around a SD of 175. But, the 45 has the advantage of almost 75 grs. more weight. If you could load equal weight slugs, at equal velocity, I think it would show just how much better penetration the 357 really has.

That isn't they way it works for me. Shooting a light bullet from the .45 just to make the comparison to the .357 "fair" belies the point. I'd just about be willing to bet, right now, without direct testing, that a .357 handgun load will not outpenetrate, OR do greater forensic terminal damage than a hard cast truncated cone .45 ACP round from a hand gun.

I have the advantage of having killed several deer with a .357 handgun, and the disadvantage of not killing any with .45 ACP. Something I hope to rectify next summer. Deer season opens August 01 up yonder. I won't shoot any more deer with a .357 handgun. If I find a dead bear that isn't too stinky I'll do some cadaver tests to see what the 1911 can do to it.

Grizz

Did you ever wonder what kind of "religion" would have as its highest reward the rape of 70 little girls? That's what the boxer-bomber was trying to achieve. Doesn't he know that PETN contains pig fat? How stupid is that?

[Rexster]

Gentlemen, from 1984 to 2002, I flip-flopped on the cartridge issue, between these two cartridges, with .41 mag thrown in for good measure, for duty/carry guns. I experimented briefly with .40 S&W, .44 Special and mag, and 9mm, too. In 2002, I got with the program, and have been carrying the standard .40 since then. (We had standardized on the .40 in 1997, but I had "grandfathered" my 1911s in 1997, and kept them current for a while.)

I did have one for-real fracas, in the summer of 1993. On Mr. Montoya, took a 125-grain Federal JHP through his sternum. The impact was like a lightning strike, totally changing his channel; he partially spun around, and went in a different direction. The wound was the most gruesome thing I had ever seen inflicted by a mere handgun. He did stagger, slowly, for a bit, but the fight was totally out of him. Dead man walking, hosing blood all over the place. (If any of y'all google this, the article in the national business-related magazine got it quite wrong.)

What, no rag-doll effect? He didn't DROP RIGHT THERE? Well, no. But, I do consider this a successful STOP.

Two weeks before this fracas, I had been carrying a .45 ACP SIG P220 in the duty rig. It may well have produced a successful stop, too. Or, perhaps not. The old-style heel-clip mag release had been snagging on the seat of the patrol car, partially releasing the magazine, so I had reverted to the sixgun for a while, the 4" GP100.

I now carry SIG P229s, in .40, virtually 24/7, even though I can carry just about anything I want, from .380 to .45, on my own time. Not because the .40 is an ideal compromise cartridge, in my mind, but because my co-workers, and colleagues with other agencies, have successfully dumped the trash plenty of times with the .40 S&W, just as we did when .357 sixguns and .45 autoloaders dominated around here. My co-workers number about 5000 officers, and we manage to shoot quite a few bad guys over time.

FWIW, I have, lately, been accumulating Marlin lever rifles in .357 mag.

At work, when ballistic festivities are anticipated, I take the Remington 870P for a walk.

I whittled this down from a longer, rambling bunch of words. Hope my fatigued brain is making sense.

[Buck Elliott]

so much for settling this once and for all.

My thoughts on the matter as well...

And, since I have no dog in this fight, I'll let the rest of you sort it out...

.45 Colt for me. 250 @ 1100

[Grizz]

Hmmmm I didn't see this as a fight, I just thought it was something fun the tub'stir stirred up.

Been thinking some on aquiring a .40 just because you LEO guys like it and because wal-mart seems to stock it when the other pistol bins are empty. Least-wise that's how it's looked at the last several marts I've looked at..... may as well go with the flow too...

Grizz

[2571]

I'll cede the launching device I just think moon clips would be a real PITA....

+312

HUGE PITA

[Doc Hudson]

Rexter,

Your post reminded me of a story told me by a co-worker back in the late 1970's.

in addition to being a welder, Hiram had a part-time EMT job.

One slow Saturday hiram said they weer sitting around drinking coffee, playing cards and waiting for a call. on over in the afternoon a call came in for them to come transport a gun shot victim. According to Hiram, cards and coffee cups flew in every direction as the scrambled to get the ambulance rolling, lights flashing and siren wailing.

When they arrived on scene they found a 20-something black guy deader than a hammer. Turns out that in the course of an argument another fellow had ddrawn a 6" S&W .357 Magnum loaded with 125 gr. JHP's and shot the stiff at a range of less than one foot.

Hiram told me it was the worst case of flailed chest he'd ever seen in nearly 10 years as an EMT. IIRC, the sternum was shattered, every rib was broken at least once and many in several places. A section of spine had been blown out the guy's back and both lungs and the heart had been punctured by the bullets or bone fragments.

hiram and the driver were madder than a couple of wet cats. hiram said he chewed the deputy out for not telling him the call was to pick up a stiff. 'Blank-dash your hide," he told the deputy,"you caused me to throw in a hand full of Spades and a fresh cup of coffee. If we'd known the run was for a stiff we'd have finished the hand(of cards)!"

I'd had not thought of Hiram or that incident in years, thanks for reminding me.