Levergun if Full Metal Jacket

[deerwhacker444]

I'm watching FMJ via Neflix and at 1:09:09 in the movie, the part where this one marine wants a reporter from Stars and Stripes to take a picture of a dead Vietnamese soldier, his weapon laying on the ground by his side appears to be a levergun.

Is this just a Hollywood fluke? Were there any leverguns issued during the Vietnam war? Just curious.

[Terry Murbach]

YES !!! I REMEMBER READING ABOUT ONE OF OUR GUYS WHO USED A 444MARLIN FOR REASONS THAT EXCAPE ME NOW.

[awp101]

YES !!! I REMEMBER READING ABOUT ONE OF OUR GUYS WHO USED A 444MARLIN FOR REASONS THAT EXCAPE ME NOW.

SFC Jerry "Mad Dog" Shriver. He was a SF/SOG guy that bought a Marlin .444 on his last leave trip to the States. From what I have read, his plan was to use it against bunkers.

There's a link around here somewhere, search his name. I know it was discussed last year and IIRC I posted a link or two about it.

[vancelw]

his weapon laying on the ground by his side appears to be a levergun.

At first glance I thought it was a pump shotgun, but the magazine tube it way too small in diameter.

It does favor a lever gun, but the photo gets too grainy when you enlarge it. EDIT Looking at the DVD, it is definitely a levergun in the movie. You can see the pistol grip, the saddle ring, and the barrel band. I've tried to copy the image so I could enlarge it, but the image won't cooperate-some kind of copy protection to keep average folks from posting screenshots I guess

I have heard of guys having their .30-30s and pump 12 gauge shotguns sent to them in Vietnam, but have never read any factual informational sources about it. Only stories that came from various (and vaporous) sources.

[765x53]

How would one get FMJ ammo for a .444 or a 30/30?
Using anything else would be a war crime and a propaganda gift to the enemy.

[AJMD429]

I don't think they always follow the rules...

I think about this when I see the videos of our guys BLOWING UP humans at 1,000 yards with the .50 BMG rounds. I know that 12,000 FPE is alot, but with a pointy FMJ 'ball' round, I'm thinking huge HOLE, but not EXPLOSION. I just wonder if those bullets are a bit more 'frangible' than milspec.

[76/444]

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[Warhawk]

I tried enlarging the pic, not very clear but I can see a barrel band on the fore arm, and a pistol grip stock. Looks like a Marlin.

[vancelw]

I tried enlarging the pic, not very clear but I can see a barrel band on the fore arm, and a pistol grip stock. Looks like a Marlin.

On the DVD, you can also see the lever loop. It looks like they have some kind of heat guard on the barrel and receiver. Don't know if it's of practical use (for real) or if the prop-master ran out of military looking guns and made up something, knowing no one would notice.

I like watching those old westerns and seeing 1892s with the forearm removed to (try to) make it look like a Henry. And every gunslinger had a Peacemaker, every on of them. Even in movies that were supposed to be set at the end of the War of Northern Aggression. Prop-masters liked simplicity I guess.

Kubrick probably wasn't worried to much about historical accuracy Although-the boot camp scenes were as close as I've ever seen it portrayed, without someone having to go there themselves to find out. That's another thread.

[76/444]

"Prop-masters liked simplicity I guess."



Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ,.... it could be part Homollywood's continuation of vilifying ALL weapons of self defense,... and now want to include those red skin killing weapons of the white war machine from the early frontier days of native American tribe genocide!!

[vancelw]

"Prop-masters liked simplicity I guess."



Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ,.... it could be part Homllywood's continuation of vilifying ALL weapons of self defense,... and now want to include those red skin killing weapons of the white war machine from the early frontier days of native American tribe genocide!!

I'd definitely buy that on Kubrick and many, many other directors from the mid 60s until now.
But I don't think that was the case when they were making B westerns back before my day.

[76/444]

"Prop-masters liked simplicity I guess."



Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ,.... it could be part Homollywood's continuation of vilifying ALL weapons of self defense,... and now want to include those red skin killing weapons of the white war machine from the early frontier days of native American tribe genocide!!

I'd definitely buy that on Kubrick and many, many other directors from the mid 60s until now.
But I don't think that was the case when they were making B westerns back before my day.

Actually I was coming more from the concept that until approx. the last decade,... the levergun has been pretty much left out of the mainstream Homollywoods attempts at making the dumbed down, greened up progressive cringe every-time they see one,... as they have accomplished with the evil black AR's,...that's all.

[Modoc ED]

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... ry+Shriver

[shawn_c992001]

I don't think they always follow the rules...

I think about this when I see the videos of our guys BLOWING UP humans at 1,000 yards with the .50 BMG rounds. I know that 12,000 FPE is alot, but with a pointy FMJ 'ball' round, I'm thinking huge HOLE, but not EXPLOSION. I just wonder if those bullets are a bit more 'frangible' than milspec.

Look into the RAUFOSS MK211 round. Talk about devastation!

When soft targets are engaged with the 50BMG they are pretty much "torn apart".

If any one has seen the show on The History Channel "Snipers Inside the Crosshairs", there is a part where a sniper is using the Raufoss round at 1 mile against enemy targets in Iraq. He shot at a wall with the round, three guys with a RPK machine gun were behind the wall. They didn't come out after the shot.

[76/444]

.

[Nazgul]

I checked the website "guns in movies", they ID it as a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun. The character is "Crazy Earl", and show another shot of him running with the gun in his pack.

Guess it was an attempt at comedy.

Don

[Cliff]

NOT to steal the post, but I can remember some of the old early (1942) military propaganda films where a submarine crew had lever guns (m-92) also had a number of the old "B" western actors in it as well. At that time a lot of prop stuff was made up on the fly. The Japenese were sqaut, bow legged and wore heavy glasses and so on. I will be quiet now....

[vancelw]

I checked the website "guns in movies", they ID it as a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun. The character is "Crazy Earl", and show another shot of him running with the gun in his pack.

Guess it was an attempt at comedy.

Don

That explains the funky shape of the gun.

Kubrick's a riot, isn't he? I usually only watch the 1st half of that movie and then turn it off.

I don't guess they showed Crazy Earl firing that Red Ryder full-auto, with each round producing a devastating explosion

[jeepnik]

How would one get FMJ ammo for a .444 or a 30/30?
Using anything else would be a war crime.

The restrictions on FMJ ammo are from the Hague Accords. It only applies only when "both" combatants are engaged in a "declared" war, and both are signatories of the accord. Obviously, Viet Nam was not a "declared" war, and the NVA, much less the VC were not signatories of the accords.

As an aside, the current middle east conflict isn't "declared", and the various insurgent groups in Iraq and Afghanistan are not signatories.

[MrMurphy]

Shriver was planning on (and may actually have) used the .444 not on bunkers, but the machine guns IN the bunkers. A round to the breech would put a MG out of action, not just kill off the crew so it can be re-used.

Oddly enough this wasn't a new idea, snipers were doing that in WW1.

I never noticed the levergun in that scene, but Winchester 92s did see limited use during WW1 in the Royal Navy, and various other leverguns of course have been in wars before.

As noted the FMJ rule only normally applies to "legal" wars where both sides play by the rules. The Vietnamese generally didn't care about rules, and Shriver was SOG. They operated behind the lines (way inside north vietnam), often in enemy uniforms or partial ones, using enemy weapons. Their job was reconnaissance, calling in airstrikes, etc. Anything that confused the enemy longer was good (this sometimes backfired, one time a team was running for the bird out and the helo didn't lift because they thought the pursuing NVA troops, in the same uniform were part of the team.. till the friendlies started shooting at them).

We typically "play by the rules" even if the other side doesn't. That's politics. Kind of like the photo of the prisoner being executed with a .38 to the head by the other guy. What the photo doesn't tell you is the shooter is a South Vietnamese general and the shootee was a NVA officer, captured in civilian clothing, armed and with offical NVA ID card during Tet. Following the rules (Hague accords and Geneva conventions) he was executed on the spot as a spy. Old rules, going back to the 1800s, and even if some don't like it, he DID play by the rules in that case. There was nothing wrong with executing the guy in that manner, it just didn't look good on camera.



On a side note one SOG guy brought a recurve bow and arrows along occasionally for silent sentry removal (he was an accomplished archer and they were always trying new things). During one firefight they were pinned down pretty bad, he got ticked off, jumped up and loosed 3 or 4 arrows at the enemy. They all stopped shooting and the US guys ran like crazy to get away.

The guy who fired the arrows said if any of those guys that had been on the receiving end survived the war they had the ultimate bar story when trading war stories "No really, they shot ARROWS at us!"

[Terry Murbach]

ON THE OPENING MORNING OF WWI THE FRENCH NAVY ORDERED FROM THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS COMPANY 1500 '94 30-30 CARBINES AND 1,500,000 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION.

[rusty gunns]

How would one get FMJ ammo for a .444 or a 30/30?
Using anything else would be a war crime.

The restrictions on FMJ ammo are from the Hague Accords. It only applies only when "both" combatants are engaged in a "declared" war, and both are signatories of the accord. Obviously, Viet Nam was not a "declared" war, and the NVA, much less the VC were not signatories of the accords.

As an aside, the current middle east conflict isn't "declared", and the various insurgent groups in Iraq and Afghanistan are not signatories.

I was in the 1st Cav 67-68.

In the Cav, the chopper pilots were issued S&W Model 10's. Other units got 45's but Uncle Sam didn't like all that ejected brass falling out of the bird and smacking the rear rotor. I got my hands on a smith and went to one of the pilots and got 1000rnds of GI ammo. Carried that along with my m-16 because the bitch jammed all the time.

Fellas wrote home for backups and you saw 44 magnums, 45 long colts, sawed off shot guns just about anything you could think of. Uncle Sam had rules, but out on the hill, you carried anything you wanted. Just don't carry an AK or an SKS because in the jungle, you sounded like "them' and people shot at you.

I swapped the ARVN's 2 cases of beer for an old WWII grease gun to keep in the cab of the sections 3/4 ton truck.

There was a fella in our motor pool used to drill a hole in the center of the 38's put in a drop of motor oil then capped it with a copper BB. Ah... those were the days.

So ... yeah, you saw many different weapons there. I stuck with things that used GI ammo because I had no one at home to send me stuff.

Just thinking about it, my feet start to hurt.

[Kansas Ed]

Explain the motor oil, bb thing?

Ed

[vancelw]

I was in the 1st Cav 67-68.

I was shoveling snow in Eureka MT about them...I was bored while my sisters were in school 'cause I was too young to go to Kiddie Garten.

On a serious note, did you ever see any guys over there that had levers? Or did most of them have pump SGs?

[rusty gunns]

Explain the motor oil, bb thing?

Ed

Ed,

The 38 rounds were the old 158 gr swc. You can not compress a liquid. When the bullet hits something, it drives the BB into the cavity. The BB acts like a hydraulic piston forcing the oil into the bullet. The lead bulled explodes.

[rusty gunns]

I was in the 1st Cav 67-68.

I was shoveling snow in Eureka MT about them...I was bored while my sisters were in school 'cause I was too young to go to Kiddie Garten.

On a serious note, did you ever see any guys over there that had levers? Or did most of them have pump SGs?

Never saw a lever gun, but I would imagine that maintenance in that environment would be a nightmare. You have to field strip and clean at least once a day. All the muck and humidity there would reek havoc on the tolerances of a lever gun. I would think.

Uncle Sam issued 12 gauge flashetts, so if you could get a double and cut it down, you could really raise hell. I saw pump shot guns but don't recall any semi autos (rem 1100 types) again, stoppage was always a problem. Not to say the weren't there. I just didn't see them. I saw guys, barrel up, stomping on operating rods to free up jammed M-14'a and M-60's. Gotta keep them clean in that environment.

[Alan Wood]

Just as a foot note to those of you that have any doubts about it being a bb-gun look at the but stock. Only butt stock I have seen with flat sides like that are in fact bb guns.

[BigSky56]

One of the troopers in the Blues in the 1/9 Cav carried a Brning Auto 5 with a extended mag tube from what he said it worked better than anything else he used, I also saw a scout dog handler that carried a A5. danny