Let Me Get This Straight...??? (rant)

[Travis Morgan]

At least I've not yet heard of a lever-gunner sending a brand new, unfired rifle off to be customized and "improved" before they even shoot it the way some folks o with M-1911's.

Talk to some SASS folks; they'll spend more money on their guns than I would on a pickup and trailer, then they don't even bother to learn to shoot!

[Sarge]

At least I've not yet heard of a lever-gunner sending a brand new, unfired rifle off to be customized and "improved" before they even shoot it the way some folks o with M-1911's.

Talk to some SASS folks; they'll spend more money on their guns than I would on a pickup and trailer, then they don't even bother to learn to shoot!

LOLZ...

Hell I am happy just finding a decent deal on a used 94 Winchester, made before push-buttons and flat-bottoms became standard equipment.

[Travis Morgan]

Ditto; I just made my own gear, and did a hell of a lot better than most of the folks with a lot of custom garbage.

[Buck Elliott]

At least I've not yet heard of a lever-gunner sending a brand new, unfired rifle off to be customized and "improved" before they even shoot it the way some folks o with M-1911's.

Talk to some SASS folks; they'll spend more money on their guns than I would on a pickup and trailer, then they don't even bother to learn to shoot!

After they spend all that cash, they figure the gun will do the work for them... Don't even get me started!

[adirondakjack]

At least I've not yet heard of a lever-gunner sending a brand new, unfired rifle off to be customized and "improved" before they even shoot it the way some folks o with M-1911's.

Talk to some SASS folks; they'll spend more money on their guns than I would on a pickup and trailer, then they don't even bother to learn to shoot!

I find that most CAS shooters who send their stuff out for "race gun" work already know how to shoot, and have suffered the game with guns poorly suited to this special use before learning that's not the best way. I've BOUGHT guns and had em sent directly for conversion work before ever seeing them. More recently I have torn down and re-worked brand new rifles or shotguns before bothering to shoot em. Nothin worse than an ill fitting tool for the job.

[Buck Elliott]

I have no problem with sending a gun out to get the real kinks worked out of it, but I have seen far too many new or intermediate shooters who want their gun "just like so&so's" when they can't even begin to take real advantage of the modifications. They really do expect the gunsmithing to make them better shooters. Doesn't happen that way with everyone, but I've seen more than my share...

[Travis Morgan]

Nothin worse than an ill fitting tool for the job.

....an apt description of most CAS shooters..

[Travis Morgan]

Hey, Buck, .....how often do you see some idiot pick up a gun you haven't even touched yet and tell you how smooth the action or trigger is? I've even heard that about an FIE derringer I have that's not square AT ALL and that I have trouble cocking! (and I'm a 250 lb. horseshoer!)

[Ben_Rumson]

Love the look on the faces of the types that believe everything has to be tricked out new and spec'd, have Holo sight ect..when they see an antique or cheap milsurp bust clods & cans just as good or better than their "special" rifle or pistol..

[Travis Morgan]

I loved outshooting Texas blowhards with my saddlegun when I worked for outfitters. Typically, they'd show up with a Browning or Weatherby with that clear epoxy finish that makes it look like you're chasing an elk with a mirror(Duh!) and chambered in some unobtainable super boomer caliber. Their scopes, more likely than not, were custom made by hubble, all their gear is overpriced, custom, and.... unused.

They'd brag, so I'd let 'em paint themselves in a corner and get 'em to put money on it. ...then outshoot them with an open sighted levergun. Most people have no idea that a .22 will shoot that tight past 200 yards!

[tman]

when the .356 wcf came out i thought i found the holy grail . a model 94 that would shoot to 200 yards with almost 30-06 ballistics, with a large, heavier bullet to boot! all the gun i'd ever need. all the gun anybody needs for 95% of the world's game at ranges that said game should be shot. nobody bought it. noboby wrote about it. try finding ammo. other than the .40s&w, can't see anything new coming out that the masses will buy. forget the 3o8, 338 marlins, the 327's . in five years they will be in the same class as the .356. i'll only by levers in 30-30 , 30-06 and 357, cause you find these rounds any where. i see .356 ammo at $56 a box. that makes me sick

[RKrodle]

I loved outshooting Texas blowhards with my saddlegun when I worked for outfitters. Typically, they'd show up with a Browning or Weatherby with that clear epoxy finish that makes it look like you're chasing an elk with a mirror(Duh!) and chambered in some unobtainable super boomer caliber. Their scopes, more likely than not, were custom made by hubble, all their gear is overpriced, custom, and.... unused.

They'd brag, so I'd let 'em paint themselves in a corner and get 'em to put money on it. ...then outshoot them with an open sighted levergun. Most people have no idea that a .22 will shoot that tight past 200 yards!

Yep, I like doing the same thing with Yankees.

[vancelw]

Yep, I like doing the same thing with Yankees.

Just to make sure I'm clear...that's anyone from north of the Red River, right?

[shdwlkr]

Buck
I have only one lever action firearm that was made since the late 70's and that was because I can't afford the older models.
I don't own a firearm that fires a caliber that was made after '78 so I kind have limited my source of levers to older ones and that suits me just fine.
Winchester has started to make the winchester model 94 again and if they make them in a caliber I want at a price I can afford I will buy it, why because I want one don't care if another person does or not.
I have a winchester big bore in 375 winchester with a 26 inch octagon barrel that I have never seen any other any where and it works just fine for me and that is all I care about what works for me. Yep I am sort of short sighted on that issue but it is my money being spent for a firearm I want and why should I give a sour apple what anyone else likes if it works for me?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

When it comes to manufacturing anything the bottom line is PRODUCTION. Everything else is secondary. I install and repair CNC machines for a living. You would not believe how a lot of companies treat a $500,000.00, or more, machine and then expect it to hold tight tolerance. I know that a rifle can be made on modern CNC equipment and have interchangeability in parts. BUT, it ain't cheap and not fast enough to make a $400.00 dollar 94. Programing time, fixture design, tooling all have to be figured into it. You can't use cheap equipment to do it. It's not that hard to hold a half thou tolerance on a part the size of a receiver. But to do it day in and day out at a production rate so as to make it affordable is a different story. It can still be done but you have to have quality equipment and that's comes at a price. So you can use cheap equipment and do a lot of time consuming and costly hand fitting or, you can pluck down a MIL or so and get quality stuff. Either way it's still going to be costly and that cost is passed on to the consumer. There are so many things that go into taking a chunk of metal and turning out a finished part that it is mind numbing. The investment cost alone for start up is just plain scary.

Ricky,
What you are talking about is just to get a gun made. You can add on average about 20% more to get it to market. With big makers like Winchester once the proto-type is made the marketing folks will run it through the legal department and they will end up sending it back for all the goofy add-on boiler plating to prevent some silly law suit, particulaly here in the USA. A good example is the Rossi's headed to the USA market. Those guns all have the ugly bolt top safety where the same gun sent to Canada or Australia doesn't have it.

[Buck Elliott]

Will Shakespeare had it right:

"KILL ALL THE LAWYERS!"

(Maybe I should have written that in GREEN to avoid offending certain folks...)

[RKrodle]

When it comes to manufacturing anything the bottom line is PRODUCTION. Everything else is secondary. I install and repair CNC machines for a living. You would not believe how a lot of companies treat a $500,000.00, or more, machine and then expect it to hold tight tolerance. I know that a rifle can be made on modern CNC equipment and have interchangeability in parts. BUT, it ain't cheap and not fast enough to make a $400.00 dollar 94. Programing time, fixture design, tooling all have to be figured into it. You can't use cheap equipment to do it. It's not that hard to hold a half thou tolerance on a part the size of a receiver. But to do it day in and day out at a production rate so as to make it affordable is a different story. It can still be done but you have to have quality equipment and that's comes at a price. So you can use cheap equipment and do a lot of time consuming and costly hand fitting or, you can pluck down a MIL or so and get quality stuff. Either way it's still going to be costly and that cost is passed on to the consumer. There are so many things that go into taking a chunk of metal and turning out a finished part that it is mind numbing. The investment cost alone for start up is just plain scary.

Ricky,
What you are talking about is just to get a gun made. You can add on average about 20% more to get it to market. With big makers like Winchester once the proto-type is made the marketing folks will run it through the legal department and they will end up sending it back for all the goofy add-on boiler plating to prevent some silly law suit, particulaly here in the USA. A good example is the Rossi's headed to the USA market. Those guns all have the ugly bolt top safety where the same gun sent to Canada or Australia doesn't have it.

I have no experience on that end of manufacturing Steve, and glad I don't. It would just tick me off more then I am already with the way manufacturing is heading in this country, or rather the way it's heading out of this country. I'm in Tulsa at a customers repairing a machine and they come over and ask me to quote disassembly of another machine so it can be shipped to China.

[Travis Morgan]

I loved outshooting Texas blowhards with my saddlegun when I worked for outfitters. Typically, they'd show up with a Browning or Weatherby with that clear epoxy finish that makes it look like you're chasing an elk with a mirror(Duh!) and chambered in some unobtainable super boomer caliber. Their scopes, more likely than not, were custom made by hubble, all their gear is overpriced, custom, and.... unused.

They'd brag, so I'd let 'em paint themselves in a corner and get 'em to put money on it. ...then outshoot them with an open sighted levergun. Most people have no idea that a .22 will shoot that tight past 200 yards!

Yep, I like doing the same thing with Yankees.

I actually didn't mean that as hard towards Texans as it sounds, but if you ask pretty much any outfitter from anywhere but Texas, the biggest PITA's come from there. They never seem to catch on that the more they brag about their money and the more they annoy us, the more time they're gonna spend on "coronary hill" type hikes. I've encountered a lot of genuinely nice, agreeable folks from down south of the border (The bottom of Oklahoma IS the top of Mexico, right?) but the biggest pains I've known, as a group, were Texans.

[Doc Hudson]

At least I've not yet heard of a lever-gunner sending a brand new, unfired rifle off to be customized and "improved" before they even shoot it the way some folks o with M-1911's.

Talk to some SASS folks; they'll spend more money on their guns than I would on a pickup and trailer, then they don't even bother to learn to shoot!

After they spend all that cash, they figure the gun will do the work for them... Don't even get me started!

Yep, as my old buddy Cay Kline says, "Blank-dashed, blippity-blipping GAMERS!" (censored for family viewing)

Cay uses the same load for CAS that he carries in the hunting fields, even in his Bond .45 LC derringer.

If you really want to hear GAMERS roasted to a turn, just get Cay started.

[Travis Morgan]

BTW, "gaYmer " has a "Y" in it.

The "reenactor" types that can't shoot but want to argue about the color of lint in Jesse James' pocket get all pissy when you mention that their load is ineffective and would have only gotten them killed if they'd been able to actually hit anyone with it.

[vancelw]

I loved outshooting Texas blowhards with my saddlegun when I worked for outfitters. Typically, they'd show up with a Browning or Weatherby with that clear epoxy finish that makes it look like you're chasing an elk with a mirror(Duh!) and chambered in some unobtainable super boomer caliber. Their scopes, more likely than not, were custom made by hubble, all their gear is overpriced, custom, and.... unused.

They'd brag, so I'd let 'em paint themselves in a corner and get 'em to put money on it. ...then outshoot them with an open sighted levergun. Most people have no idea that a .22 will shoot that tight past 200 yards!

Yep, I like doing the same thing with Yankees.

I actually didn't mean that as hard towards Texans as it sounds, but if you ask pretty much any outfitter from anywhere but Texas, the biggest PITA's come from there. They never seem to catch on that the more they brag about their money and the more they annoy us, the more time they're gonna spend on "coronary hill" type hikes. I've encountered a lot of genuinely nice, agreeable folks from down south of the border (The bottom of Oklahoma IS the top of Mexico, right?) but the biggest pains I've known, as a group, were Texans.

I can't speak for Ricky, but it's all in good fun.

You know what people from all states have in common?

They all want to be Texans

I know exactly what you are talking about. I've been to a couple of different fund-raising events where most of the audience (all Texans) were pretty drunk and obnoxious. 2-dollar millionaires. Overpaid rednecks. "Redneck" is not a bad word around here, but "overpaid" is. I would hate to be on a hunt with some of those folks.

I lived in Montana as a kid, so smart alecks around here would sometimes call me a Yankee (6th generation Texan ). I'd just wrinkle my brow and ask, "Was Montana in the war?"

[RKrodle]

I loved outshooting Texas blowhards with my saddlegun when I worked for outfitters. Typically, they'd show up with a Browning or Weatherby with that clear epoxy finish that makes it look like you're chasing an elk with a mirror(Duh!) and chambered in some unobtainable super boomer caliber. Their scopes, more likely than not, were custom made by hubble, all their gear is overpriced, custom, and.... unused.

They'd brag, so I'd let 'em paint themselves in a corner and get 'em to put money on it. ...then outshoot them with an open sighted levergun. Most people have no idea that a .22 will shoot that tight past 200 yards!

Yep, I like doing the same thing with Yankees.

I actually didn't mean that as hard towards Texans as it sounds, but if you ask pretty much any outfitter from anywhere but Texas, the biggest PITA's come from there. They never seem to catch on that the more they brag about their money and the more they annoy us, the more time they're gonna spend on "coronary hill" type hikes. I've encountered a lot of genuinely nice, agreeable folks from down south of the border (The bottom of Oklahoma IS the top of Mexico, right?) but the biggest pains I've known, as a group, were Texans.

I been to pretty much every state in the U.S. and there are people in all of them, or so it appears. But it sounds to me that they were taking on the persona of their outfitters.

How this software edited what I said to people I have know idea, but you can use your imagination.

[Travis Morgan]

It's okay that you're from Texas; not everyone's mama loves them enough to make sure their born an Okie!

[firefuzz]

Yep, I like doing the same thing with Yankees.

Just to make sure I'm clear...that's anyone from north of the Red River, right?

HEY...................watch out there!

Rob

[firefuzz]

Looking back to the last quarter of the 1880's Winchester was vertually a custom gun maker. Starting with the '73 and going thru the beginning of WWII you could order so many different variations of a particular model of rifle it would number in the thousands to have one of each caliber in every conceivable variation possible. Many variations were never even made, but were available. How many of us had ever even heard of a fast taper octagonal barrel, I hadn't until my Winchester smith showed me two of them about 2 weeks ago. If ALL of Winchester's shipping records were available I'd bet there are dozens if not hundreds of "one of a kind" factory Winchesters out there.

But time proved this practice to not be profitable. IMHO another thing that killed this type of custom work was the passing of gun laws that prohibited the shipping of guns directly to the customer, it certainly increased the cost. As for me, for the big part what is now available in standard models is good enough...with a few modifications mainly in the sight department. But I'm ever so thankful for the talented services of custom gunsmiths with the ability to take care of the non-standards desires of all of us.

My gunsmith is currently collecting parts for an additional front end for my "new" '86 takedown. The only restrictions I've told him are no longer than a 26" barrel and no mods to the receiver. He got this funny smile on his face when I told him to suprise me with the caliber, it just had to be an original '86 loading and something I could either get or make brass for with no great effort. I may have messed up.

Rob

[Doc Hudson]

It's okay that you're from Texas; not everyone's mama loves them enough to make sure their born an Okie!

next thing you know he'll be talking about Baja Oklahoma and get a range war started.

[shdwlkr]

Firefuzz
If I where your smith and you had given me those instructions you would end up with a 50-110 with a 26 inch octagon barrel on that 86.
Now that will definately let you know when you pull the trigger and I am just to old and beat up to handle that kind of shooting anymore so have to settle for my 45-70 and am pleased with that.

[firefuzz]

He might do me that way, but probably not. He likes shooting my guns too. Besides, he loves the old bottle-necked Winchester cartridges the '86 came in so it'll most likely be one of those. The 26" barrel wouldn't bother me either but again it would surprise me if he did it. Maybe a half round/half octagon but that might be difficult with the take down. He knows I like a short rifle configuration so he might go that way. Anyway he goes it will be unique and something to enjoy.

Rob

[txpete]

It's okay that you're from Texas; not everyone's mama loves them enough to make sure their born an Okie!

next thing you know he'll be talking about Baja Oklahoma and get a range war started.

1835 map of texas note no OK on the map.

[Travis Morgan]

It's okay that you're from Texas; not everyone's mama loves them enough to make sure their born an Okie!

next thing you know he'll be talking about Baja Oklahoma and get a range war started.

1835 map of texas note no OK on the map.

Obviously drawn by a Texan who was jealous, lol!

[txpete]

we were a republic and y'all were homeless

[Doc Hudson]

we were a republic and y'all were homeless

Are you saying it is actually Okahomless rather than Oklahoma? LOL

Where is that "Stirring the Pot" Smiley?

[txpete]

[Travis Morgan]

we were a republic and y'all were homeless

We just didn't wanna put up signs and let a bunch of Texans figure out how much better off we were. In fact, we started the rumor that Texas is great, and just hoped some idiots would believe it.

[Travis Morgan]

I hope y'all don't taKE THE ABOVE POST WRONG; IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE THAT INSULTING.

[vancelw]

I hope y'all don't taKE THE ABOVE POST WRONG; IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE THAT INSULTING.

We're way off the original post, but I can't help it....


I don't take it wrong. I've met some nice Okies in my life. My Great Grandparents were born in Blue, Indian Territory.
A while back I did some gun trading with a feller over in Frogville, OK. I traveled down a long dusty road to find him. When I pulled in the yard of his shack, no one was around but a young boy, who was playing with some dried locust shells and trigs, pretending they were cattle and corrals. I asked him if his dad was home, and he said he was out back, feeding the hogs. He then said, "It won't be hard to find him. He's the one wearing the hat."

[txpete]

we were a republic and y'all were homeless

We just didn't wanna put up signs and let a bunch of Texans figure out how much better off we were. In fact, we started the rumor that Texas is great, and just hoped some idiots would believe it.

I have family that lives up there and trust me you guys get hit hard in TAXES,you can have it.