Range report: 30-30 with 150gr Sierra and H322

[336A]

Since the weather was so nice today I hit the range to try my hand loads with H322. I had 3 rounds each containing 30gr to 31.5gr going up in half grain increments. The 31.5 gr charge is one that Brian Pearce always comments on, but it is .5gr over the suggested max charge weight listed in the Speer #14 manual. Here are the particulars.

Brass: Winchester
Primer: Win large Rifle (WLR)
Bullet: Sierra 150gr
Rifle: 2002 Marlin 336A
Scope: Bushnell 2-7x32 Elite 3200 series.
Range 100yd

All shooting was done with a front and rear rest. Groups were 3 shots and the furthest 2 shots were measured center to center. The only 2 worth measuring were the 30gr charge which shot 1.75" and 31gr at 2.015". For a control I used Fed Fusion 150gr and 150gr Win Power Point. The Fusion shot a awesome .880" while the Win posted a .936" group. This further confirms that my rifle prefers factory ammo to my handloads. The 30gr charge of H322 is by far the most accurate that I've tried to date. Howevr I'm unsure if I should even bother reloading for this rifle now since the factory ammo shoots so much better ???

[Blaine]

Don't give up until you've tried IMR 3031. I would not think H322 perfectly suited to 30WCF....Having said that, factory 170gr ammo always stays about MOA with my 336...with a cold barrel....after a few shots it heats up and strings vertically.

[Marc]

Well, how about that? I just got back from the range myself! And I tried a load in my 336A with 30 grains of H322 and the 150 grain Remington round nose. Three shots at 100 yards went into .7 inches. Average velocity at 15' was 2196 FPS. I don't see a thing wrong with H322 in this 30-30!

I also used 34 grains H322 and a 130 Speer in my Winchester Model 64. That three shot group had two touching and a flier that opened the group to 1.1" at 100 yards. That load averaged 2592 FPS.

Both rifles wear receiver sights. Both loads showed very uniform velocities. I am starting to like H322 a lot in my 30-30's!

[336A]

Thats great shooting Marc. I wish that my rifle wasn't so dang fussy about what it likes to shoot. BTW Sierra lists 29.7gr of H322, with their 150gr FP as their accuracy load and listed the velocity right at 2200fps from a 20" Marlin 336. So yeah your right there. I just wish mine was too. Trying to come up with a good accurate hand load for this rifle is driving me mad. I'm not done yet though as I've got Hornady and Speer 150gr bullets to try out as well.

[Nath]

I struggled with my 336 years ago but my first 94 Winchester shot like those reloads you tried pretty much the same for what it's worth!

Nath.

[iceman]

Have you tried 170 gr bullets? Maybe it likes heavier bullets. My mod 94 prefers 170 over 150.

[Sarge]

Find another reloader with some H4895; see if he'll part with a little dab of it. While I never tried H322 I have tried a half dozen or so rifle powders. H4895 consistently produces good-to-exceptional accuracy, and at or near factory duplication velocity, in every medium-capacity bottleneck cartridge I've tried it in.

[Marc]

336A, in my Model 64, the key to getting good groups was neck tension. I just recently started shooting jacketed bullets in my 30-30's. I wanted to hunt with the 64, and I live in the lead free buzzard zone, so I had to work up a Barnes X-bullet load. Since they are expensive I am starting with jacketed bullets. My first groups were ho-hum. The H322 wasn't to bad at 1.6" and loads with IMR3031 and H4895 were over 2". I did find an accurate load with RL-7 but when I bumped the charge up it went sour. Anyway while mulling that over, I remembered that my RCBS dies that work so well with .310" or .311" cast bullets don't size the neck very much. I measured a few cases and the neck ID was .308" I got a 308 bullet and was able to push it into the sized case with my thumb. I also have an old C&H die set and a Hornady die set so I sized a few cases in them and found the C&H dies gave about .002" of neck tension. I found today that it definitely helped the groups. So those dies are now my official jacketed bullet dies.

I have never shot the 336 with jacketed bullets before. It never shot well with any of my cast loads so I quit shooting it. I haven't shot it in several years. A couple weeks ago I decided to try it again because I have some new bullet molds. They didn't work well either. Mainly because none of them fit the rifle very well. Since I was playing with the jacketed bullets with H322 in the Model 64, I decided to try jacketed in the 336. Worked good! I didn't do anything special. I used the C&H dies, seated the bullet to the crimp groove, and lightly crimped with the Lee factory crimp die. So maybe playing with the neck tension would help your groups. Hard to say, but maybe something to look at.

[336A]

Blain that is my next powder to try after I've tried everything I can think of with the H322. What I need to do though is find another reloader who uses 3031, and H4895. This way I won't end up with a pound of useless powder if I find it don't work so well. I had to give away my RL 15 and W748 as both of those powders were horrible.

Iceman I haven't tried hanloading any 170gr bullets yet, however I will try them later on.

Marc the neck tension is fine, and I also crimp with a factory crimp die as well. I make sure not to over crimp but crimp enough so bullet set back does not occur. To be honest I didn't think I was going to get any decent group with my hand load. I figured I was going to be disapointed again with enormous groups as I was in the past. So compared to what I was getting a 1.75" group from my hand loads with this rifle is pretty darn good.

[Marc]

Yes, a 1-3/4" group isn't bad at all. It will work for most anything you want to do with a 30-30. We fanatics like to see something better but a lot of game is killed with worse shooting rigs than that.

[Sarge]

Marc, my RCBS 30-30 dies are probably 30 years old. I had poor neck tension with them using .308 bullets and many years ago I yanked the expander plug out and polished down a few thousandths. This all took place so long ago that I had forgotten it entirely, until just last week when I finally broke a decapping pin.

Anyhow I get excellent neck tension with the modified plug and I'm still able to seat .309 cast bullets without difficulty. I also crimp with a Lee factory crimp die, for whatever that's work.

[Marc]

Sarge, These dies are also about 30 years old. It isn't the expander ball, it is the die itself. The expander ball doesn't even touch the neck on a lot of cases. I wouldn't have them any other way for my cast bullets. I consider it a stroke of luck to have them for .310" and .311" bullets.

[Modoc ED]

Don't give up until you've tried IMR 3031. I would not think H322 perfectly suited to 30WCF....

I'm with Blaine on that. I too use IMR 3031.

The 2010 Hodgdon Reloading Manual doesn't even list H 322 for any .30-30 load regardless of bullet weight. That manual even uses the Sierra 150gr bullet for their 150gr loads.

That's a clue for me from Hodgdon that H 322 is not a suitable powder for the .30-30

[336A]

Ed, I don't know why Hodgdon don't list data for this powder either. I'm sure that it is more than suitable however as it is listed for use by Barnes, Sierra, and Speer. In the Sierra 5th edition this powder is listed in every table as either the powder touse for hunting or accuracy, that right there tells me a lot. But of course I'm not saying that other powders aren't worthy either. As soon as I find someone that uses 3031,and H4895 I'll see if they won't mind giving my a small amount to try out.

[brno602]

Blain that is my next powder to try after I've tried everything I can think of with the H322. What I need to do though is find another reloader who uses 3031, and H4895. This way I won't end up with a pound of useless powder if I find it don't work so well. I had to give away my RL 15 and W748 as both of those powders were horrible.

Iceman I haven't tried hanloading any 170gr bullets yet, however I will try them later on.

Marc the neck tension is fine, and I also crimp with a factory crimp die as well. I make sure not to over crimp but crimp enough so bullet set back does not occur. To be honest I didn't think I was going to get any decent group with my hand load. I figured I was going to be disapointed again with enormous groups as I was in the past. So compared to what I was getting a 1.75" group from my hand loads with this rifle is pretty darn good.

I have only owned 3 okay two one was a .32 win and I always had good things to say about 748 but guns are funny things to each there own really. I never did sell my 788 but I did sell my Marlin to my brother, I can get it back and my Win 94 in .32 to a friend of a friend,cant get it back after his shot on the Elk . My new to me Win 94 is okay but not great like my two older ones where, still working up a load for it but I will say this if you follow the older realoding manuals you can and will get 2200fps out of a 170 gr bullet with a 20'' barrel. But as always work up looking for pressure signs. Now my 788 does not play by the standard 30/30 games it will shoot 1/2'' groups with cast slugs at 1700fps or it will shoot 3/4'' groups with a Speer 150gr BTSP with a way over max load of 748 and get a scary 2400+fps A really good 200yrd deer gun. 30/30s are funny things so many load combo's work good in them. I am new to a pistol round in a rifle so I look foward to leaning new things and tricks if you will. Working up loads is so much fun you might get a surprise or be dissapointed.

[Streetstar]

Sub 1" groups with a Marlin 30-30 sounds outstanding for you guys that are getting that kind of accuracy !

My winnie 94's do well to shoot 2.5" groups (haven't experimented with handloads too much -- just factory 150 grain soft points). I doubt i could shoot any better with open sights though, even if the rifle could

[J Miller]

2" at a 100 yards is good for 30-30. Some will do better, some won't. My Win 94s averaged 1.5" when I did my part. No range experience with Marlin 336's.

If you need a crimp to prevent bullet set back in a tubular magazine, you don't have enough neck tension.
I use RCBS dies from the 70s, I have two sets. Both work well and there is no lack of neck tension.

My most used, and most accurate load for all the 30-30s I've shot is 34.5 grs of Win 748 sparked by a Win WLR primer with a Speer 150gr bullet. I've never run into a 30-30 that wouldn't shoot that load at least decently.
I'd like to try 'my' ammo in your 336. I'm curious about it. I even got a half pound of 3031 I'd contribute.

336A, all guns are laws unto themselves. Maybe yours is on the fringe of the allowable tolerances and is really hard to satisfy.

Joe

[336A]

Hi Joe, I use just a light amount of crimp with a FCD as a just in case. The dies I've got are/were brand new RCBS, when I get done resizing my brass I can't even get a bullet started in the mouth of the neck. I've tried the load you mention with W748 but as I think back on it now I may have been using to much crimp as they weren't accurate for me. They were accurate in my friends 336A however. Maybe your right about my rifles tolerances but it seems to do just fine with Hornady 160gr LE. 150gr Fed Fusion, 150gr Win PP, and 170gr Win ST all of it being factory ammo.

[J Miller]

Hi Joe, I use just a light amount of crimp with a FCD as a just in case. The dies I've got are/were brand new RCBS, when I get done resizing my brass I can't even get a bullet started in the mouth of the neck. I've tried the load you mention with W748 but as I think back on it now I may have been using to much crimp as they weren't accurate for me. They were accurate in my friends 336A however. Maybe your right about my rifles tolerances but it seems to do just fine with Hornady 160gr LE. 150gr Fed Fusion, 150gr Win PP, and 170gr Win ST all of it being factory ammo.

336A.
If it shoots accurately with that many different types of factory ammo, then I'm pretty sure we can rule out the rifle. All that leaves is figuring out what is different about your hand loads your rifle doesn't like. Sometimes that's not easy, but it is doable. The 30-30 has been out so long that most of the old time formulas like those with IMR 3031 and 4895, Win 748 and others usually do work well. To be honest though the only ball powder I've used in the 30-30 is 748. Everything else has been extruded.
In the case of your rifle, I'd pick the factory ammo I ( it ) likes the most then when I have enough brass saved up, I'd work on duplicating it.
That's where I got my 748 load. It is a practical duplicate of the Win 150gr PP load.

Your 30.0gr of H332 load is in the ball park of things. Perhaps it just needs some refinement???

Too much crimp can buckle the case neck brass and reduce tension on it. It can also cause the tension to erratic. After my cases are loaded, (I either use a separate crimp step or crimp when seating-depends on several factors) I use just enough crimp to roll the case mouth into the grove. Sound about like what you said you're doing. My Lee FCD will not adequately crimp Hornady bullets. They have a real deep crimp grove and the FCD just will not roll them in enough. So when I use Hornady bullets I always use the crimper in the RCBS seating die. The FCD seems to work good with Winchester PP and Speer bullets though.

One of the things I do with my brass is check the length. I think I trim it to 2.?? ... er now I forget and my records are down in the basement. Anyway I get the length consistent then I inside and outside camfer the case mouths. It does make it easier for the bullet to be seated.

Sounds like you got a puzzle on your hands. I look forward to reading on what it does like.

Joe