Opinion on a big bore lever action and cartridge?

[Jahrs]

I have been thinking about and researching this topic for a few weeks and it just dawned on me to ask you guys what your opinion is on the best big bore lever action in a pre-safety model (wood stocks only) and caliber would be? Reasons to include: strength and reliability of receiver, accuracy, knock down power, availability and cost of cartridge, affordability, and last but not least the looks and feel of a particular model. I am leaning towards the Marlin 1895 in 45-70. In your opinion is there another lever out there with those qualifications that might be better than the 1895?

[salvo]

Browning 1886 in 45/70
Rifle or saddle ring carbine. Like the original, no tang safety or rebounding hammer!
Here is my SRC

[Boreman]

Current calibers,the 45-70 is excellent !!!!
My choice,based on the items you mentioned,would be a M-71 in 348 Winchester if you have the means($$$$) to buy one.But then I am a little biased when it comes to the M-71.I consider the M-71 the ultimate big bore levergun.Others might disagree

[Grizz]

I agree with Scott about the 1886. It's the tough-guy of 45/70 repeaters. Very high quality firearms.

The Marlin 1895 is lighter. And cheaper. And less expensive too.

No disrespect intended, but .35 cal isn't big-bore. Regardless of the powder charge under it. IMO.

Grizz

[TedH]

In my opinion, you don't get into big bores till you hit .375" bullets. For the money, you can't beat the 45-70 Marlin 1895 or the same thing in Guide Gun configuration. Sure, an 1886 is nice and carries more nostalgia, but it will come with a heavier price tag as well as weight.

[FWiedner]

Nothing under .50" is a big bore.

The Marlin 1895 in any of its variety of configurations is an excellent firearm for the money and will last a lifetime.

[Doc Hudson]

Caliber? .45-70 Government without question!

The .45-70 in standard factory form will take any big game animal in the Lower 48, and using premium ammunition from Garrett Cartridge Company, Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon you can take any big game animal in the world, including the big Alaskan bear or the African Big Five.

You can loaded it down with heavy bullets to make virtually silent loads for pest control. Or be loaded with light for caliber bullets for small game hunting.

For the choice of rifle, it is up to you whether you opt for a Winchester/Browning Model 1886 or a Marlin Model 1895. Both rifles are available in several variations. The Model 1886 is somewhat stronger, but it is also considerably heavier than the Marlin Model 1895.

In both the Model 1886 or the Model 1895, the .45-70 cartridge can be loaded to considerably higher than standard pressure and performance level than standard levels. I'm not sure about the M-1886, but in some modern single-shot rifles, one may load the .45-70 Gov't to closely approach .458 WinMag performance.

If you can't kill it with a .45-70, you probably shouldn't have been shooting at it in the first place.

[BwanaDave]

I have a model 1895 and buying the gun is just the start. You will need decent sites, look at the XS sights (formerly Ashley). Then the trigger sucks but that is an easy fix with a Wild West trigger, may as well order their ejector too. A fella named Ludwig makes a plug so you can get rid of the redundant cross bolt safety. Then there is the wood, burn it and buy a stock set from Treebone Carving and give it a nice oil finish. Do the above and you have a really nice truck gun.

On mine I also added one of those recoil pads made for shooting sporting clays. It has a material at the top that inhibits it from grabbing our clothing when mounting the gun in a hurry.

[336A]

I have put a lot of thought into getting a big bore rifle myself one day. After reading as much as I could get my hands on, and gleaning info from folks here I came to a different conclusion for caliber. I've decided that one of these days I'll have my very own .444 Marlin. I know I know it don't have the history of the 45-70 and it can't fire 500gr bullets, and ammo can be hard to come by at times.

However IMHO the upshot to the .444 Marlin is it has a considerably flatter trajectory as far as over the counter commercial ammo is concerned. The non-reloader can even the odds so to speak by purchasing hot Buffalo Bore or Grizzly ammo, however both his wallet and his shoulder will take a huge beating. Yes the .444 Marlin can give a good smack on the shoulder as well. But it won't be quite as punishing as some of the fire breathing .45-70 loads that are out there since it uses lighter bullets. There are a couple of posters over at Marliowners who are very fond of this caliber with years of experience with it in the hunting fields to boot. One is from Sweeden the other is a neighbor to our north in Canada. Both have shot more Moose with their .444's and cast bullets than you can shake a stick at. Seeing as I've never shot anything bigger than WT deer, I'll take their word for it when they say big things stop happening real fast when you launch a 300+gr cast bullet from a .444 Marlin into their pump house. Not one of the men have yet to lose an animal, nor do I believe recovered a bullet (cast).

For most game in N America the .444 will do quite well with the old Hornady 265gr Light Mag loading which sadly has been discontinued. So I guess that now leaves only the LE ammo, I wouldn't trust the 240gr ammo on anything bigger than deer. If one is going after the big bears of the north then a 300+gr cast bullet would be in order. Another upshot from a reloading stand point is that the .444 uses less powder than some of the hotter .45-70 load that have become all the rage lately. Anyway in the end it all about each to his own and that is all that really matters.

[Streetstar]

I own a Guide Gun and can't say enough good things about it, however, there is room in the safe for an 1886 when time and finances allow, those big Winchesters (or Brownings) are too cool.

The 45-70 is a neat cartridge, I live in whitetail country and factory loads are more than sufficient for medium size deer, hogs, or smaller black bear. Recoil is pretty light with most factory loads as well. I used the Hornady flex tip load this past deer season, and recoil with the 325 gr pill was not a factor at all.

Plus, if i can ever afford a dream Alaska trip --- the shoulder whompers from Garrett or Buffalo Bore (or equivalent handloads) can be put to good use . Truly a flexible cartridge in a neat package. As a side note, the Guide Gun with 18.5" barrel is extremely tree stand friendly and very maneuverable

[AJMD429]

Depends on if you want a RIFLE (Marlin XLR)...



or a CARBINE (Marlin Guide Gun)...



Unfortunately, the bottom gun is only available in the 'obsolete, anemic, .45-70', whereas the top one is available in both that 'sentimental old round', as well as the more modern and entirely wonderful .444 Marlin. . .

Seriously, if you like a 'rifle' sized gun for your big bore round, the XLR is available in .30-30 Winchester, .308 Marlin Express, and .35 Remington (none of them what I'd call 'big bores', but pretty useful rounds), as well as .444 Marlin, .45-70, and .450 Marlin. From a lever action gun without extensive gunsmithing, I doubt you'd get a more accurate gun than the XLR.

If you want blued vs. stainless, you'll have to stick with the 'Guide Gun', if you want a Marlin (XLR's are all stainless).



The Marlins seem to sacrifice little to the competition (Winchester, Browning, Henry), and are in my opinion far easier to clean, mount various sights (optic, receiver, and 'scout') on, and in general, do 'kitchen-table gunsmithing' on.

I only 'dissed' the .45-70 just for fun; it is an awesome cartridge, given new life in the modern steel and modern construction guns of today, starting with the Marlins (strong) and through the Winchesters (modern ones stronger), and if you REALLY want a kick-butt .45-70, get a Ruger No.1 in it, and you've basically got an elephant-gun in a cartridge more than a century old... . . . hey, it does have a lever, sort of. . . .

[rimrock]

I'd pick the .444 again although I've never fired a .45-70. The .444 pretty much forced me into reloading because commercial ammo isn't easily obtained in my neck of the woods unless you go to a big Box store about 1-2 hrs away. .45-70 may be better if you want commercial ammo. I can't say enough good about a Limbsaver recoil pad in comparison to the factory original butt pad.

The saying that you can do obtain the same power factor from a 300 grain bullet from a .444 that you can with a 400 grain bullet from a .45-70 kind of was the tipping point for my personal choice because of less pressure but still enough gun. YMMV. So, a 405 grain bullet from a.444 should do what a 500 grain bullet from a .45-70. Either one will impress the unknowing with the concussive forces they produce if you're standing 5-6 ft behind a shooter.

See Beartoothbullets or Montana Bullet Works for some good examples of 405 grain bullets for the .444.

rimrock

[stretch]

The 45-70 is a terrific and very versatile cartridge. It'll
kill pretty much any quadriped or biped on the planet,
assuming the correct ammunition. Marlin makes several
very servicable models at really quite reasonable prices.
It's a very sensible choice...........

(Okay, done with the practical. )

Uberti's 1876 in 50-95 is a very, very handsome rifle. And
how cool is that cartiridge?!? Replace the buckhorn rear sight
with a tang sight or a receiver sight, and you'd have a sight
radius just short of a mile or so.

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1876_cen ... _rifle.php

And it's only twice the price of the Marlin!

-Stretch

[Kid Cossack]

Jahrs:

What are you looking to knock down?

I've only killed a solitary pig with the .45-70, with a factory 405 softpoint. (I think it was Remington, pretty sure.) When I was younger, I loved the fact that in modern rifles you could whomp up the .45-70 something fierce. I tend to regard the (new) Marlin 1895 as the starting point for hotter loads, the (new) 1886 as higher and (probably) the Ruger No. 1 as the highest. I shot a few boxes of hot-loaded ammo---including six through a rebarreled and rechambered Steyr 95.

Then I remembered that the .45-70 was designed for shooting not just soldiers, but horses, and used for shooting buffalo as well. (Well, bison.) And, not living in Alaska, I've come to terms with the idea that there's nothing wrong with a 405 grain soft point (or, better yet, a 400-500 grain cast bullet) trundling along at 1200 fps. The .45-70 did not make its reputation as a .458 Winchester Magnum, it made its reputation as a .45-70.

Learn to love the football trajectory; get closer. Do it old school.

I am quite fond of my Marlin Guide Gun, although I wish it was de-ported. There are older 1895s out there (older in the sense of "since Marlin reintroduced the model number for a .45-70 version of the 336") that are safety-less, and I have seen some nice wood on some of them. One slight concern of mine is that on the Guide Gun, the loading port is fairly stiff. This may have been altered/corrected in subsequent production runs.

(As always, these represent my thoughts, and I could be crazy.)

[Mike D.]

The 1886 is a superior firearm, and the cost is justified. It's not just marginally stronger than the Marlin, it's a heck of a lot stronger. A modern 1886 can handle loads that are supposed to be ONLY used in the Ruger No1, something that would render a 336 inoperable. I don't own a Marlin .45-70, but do own several 1886s, so you might say I'm a bit prejudiced. In Marlin's defense, though, the 1895(336) has been doing a fine job for the 30 odd years since it was introduced. I only wish that they had re-introduced the REAL Model 1895, a heck for stout dandy of a rifle. It's rather ponderous weight would have discouraged most buyers, though, so they opted for a modern approach with the slightly elongated NEW 1895/336.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Everyone has their own ideas as to what is best.
I have both the 22" 1895 in .45-70 and the 1895 Cowboy with it`s 26" barrel. I also have a Marlin .444 that is the same rifle as the 1895 22" only in the smaller caliber.

Many say you need to change the trigger and ejector to after market parts and to remove the safety and fill the hole with a plug.

The triggers on all my marlins are not bad at all and most are quite fine as they are. And this comes from a guy who owns BR rifles with 1 1/2 oz. Jewell triggers so I can appreciate a fine trigger when I use one.

The ejector can be replaced with one touted to be Bear proof
but ejector failure is almost unheard of. It would be like tossing all your ammo and buying another brand because someone on the internet once reported a misfire with that brand of ammo.
Also that ejector is located behind a pretty thick piece of steel. I doubt any Bear will get at it.

Both the 1895 and 1886 are fine guns and will give you satisfactory service and accuracy with any reasonable load.

Buy the one that feels right to you and enjoy!

[Jahrs]

Thanks men for all of the info. I must admit that I am liking the 1886 and I guess you guys are referring to the Browning Miroku? I can't afford the Winchester. I had a B-92 before and the quality was very good. I only hunt Whitetail here (NC) but I could be persuaded to go on an Elk, or Moose hunt someday. So this is for that someday but really I just want one.

[Old Savage]

Depends on personal taste but for practical power the 45-70 is the winner - by taste I mean what rifle. I have had 444s, 45-70s and shot the 86, BB94, and the various iterations of the 1895 modern of course. I really like the BB94 444, 1895SS with the 22" barrel and the 1886 in the carbine. With all you can likely load it high enough to get all the recoil you want and that will vary person to person with the various guns and that will really surprise you in who can take what with what rifle if top power is what you want. With moderate loads it is purely personal taste. The modern 1886 is the strongest but if I got to the top level I would likely want a #1 Ruger. They will all handle the heavy bullet low speed killers. Say 400 or + at 1300 to 1500 fps. Scope, no scope your choice.

[Jaguarundi]

I like my 1895 XLR in 45-70 .

[Hobie]

In order to have what you want I bought a Browning 1886 SRC. I am VERY satisfied.

[firefuzz]

My very first center-fire rifle was a Marlin .444 that I saved up for and Dad bought for me at the outragous price of $125 when I was 14 y/o. (Dad took one look at the cartridge and said "Welllll, okayyyy...it's your money and your shoulder ) It kicked like a mule (or so I thought then) but I couldn't miss with it. Saved up an put a 4x12 Bushnell scope on it, I installed it, and missed my first shot and wound up sporting a black eye for a week (fortunately no cut) and took the scope off. Shells cost the unheard of price of $7.00 a box so I got my first experience at reloading for it with a Lee handloader. Lots of fine memories there, but I don't own one now.

I've owned several .45-70's from a H&R Shakari (?), 2-1895 Marlin's, No's 1 and 3 Rugers and now I have a Miroku '86 Winchester TD that I love. IMHO, the .444 is a fine cartridge, but the .45-70 will do anything it will do and more. Load it up, down, or right down the middle, the .45-70 is a big-bore lever gunners dream. My shoulder is the limiting factor in how hot I want to load the cartridge, not the limits of the rifle, and I load it to enjoy shooting it and still get any job done I'm gonna pick that rifle for. (I had a beautiful Ruger No1 in .458 that I sold because it never got shot.)

The 1895 Marlin is a fine rifle and as a shooter will do just fine, but it's NOT an '86 Winchester (or copy) and not as strong if that's a true concern. I'm a Winchester fan simply because I'm a Winchester fan and make no excuses for it. Save up the extra $$ and get the '86, you won't be sorry.

Rob

[Wes]

I have both and it's a real toss up which I like best. I used my Marlins to kill an awful lot of elk and deer. I haven't killed much with my '86. It's a heavy *** and no slings, no scope. I'm sure that is the reason.
To be practical I guess I'd say go Marlin. It's cheaper and mine have taken some serious use and are still fine. You can accessorize them with triggers, ejectors, big loop levers, scopes, aperature sights, etc. All this and they are cheaper (let's say less expensive).

[Pathfinder09]

Words just don't do it!

[gak]

+1 1886 SRC. Mine's been a dandy.

[Buck Elliott]

If you choose an '86 Winchester, you only pay a little extra money, ONCE, at time of purchase. If you choose the Marlin '95, you may pay a little, every time you take it afield, in terms of strength, handling and reliability. Just my educated opinion, guys. Not looking for a fight.

My favorite '86 is an Extra Light Rifle, in .45-70.

[.45colt]

For the average shooter I don't thinks the Marlin 1895 45-70 can be beat. Mine is way better than I thought it would be and is very smooth. I would own if I could afford it an original '86 Lightwieght. Elmer Keith had five at one time. I am hopeing Pedersoli does indeed have this one for sale this fall as showen at the shot show. this may fit my budget.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/img/Arms/S.740.jpg

[madman4570]

Browning 1886 in 45/70
Rifle or saddle ring carbine. Like the original, no tang safety or rebounding hammer!
Here is my SRC

+1


The deal for the Ruger #1 ?????
I have one in 45-70 and 7MM Mag and honestly I find a good Lever like the Browming 1886 or the BLR really shoots about as good.
And for true big game hunting especially where any dangerous stuff could be encountered ,why give up a lighter gun with extra rounds if need be especially if it shoots as good.
Myself,I really dont care for the #1 lever also and wished it broke like a H&R Handi. JMO

Ruger #1 owners/lovers dont get mad but twice I have fell for the (they are sooooo much more accurate stuff)??? My Win 70 XTR or my friends Browning BLR(all same 7mm mag)will shoot with that #1 all day long!

[Mike D.]

Winchester, Winchester, Winchester, Browning .

[Jahrs]

Would one of you provide some manufacture history IE: Dates of original 1886 model, dates or Browning 1886 and also The Winchester extra light which appears to be made in Japan too. Thanks for all of the info and the beautiful pics.

[Mike D.]

The original 1886 was produced from 1886 to 1935. The "Lightweight" was introduced in 1895 and continued until end of production. Browning introduced out their rifles, built in Japan by Miroku in 1987. These guns were true to the original Winchesters in that they had no safeties other than the half cock on the hammer. In 1998, Winchester brought their re-introduction of the 1886, but the guns were encumbered by a often failing rebounding hammer and silly tang mounted sliding safety. Talk about redundancies. I got rid of the rebounder on one of mine and also dumped the tang safety.

Replacing the Miroku/Winchester hammer and two piece trigger/ sear and spring with Miroku/Browning parts is cake. Then, and only then, do you actually have a rifle that functions as John Browning intended it to. BTW, the Bbrowning carbine in the photo is a .45-90 WCF and will soon wear an original Lyman No 21N sight. The little carbine sight that came with the gun is not favorable to accuracy, so it will go away, as will the sling ring.

[CowboyTutt]

I have to agree with my friend Mike D. that the 1886 is the "creme de la creme" of strong and SMOOTH leverguns. The Marlin does pretty well for itself, and it is cheaper, and can be very accurate. But its just not going to be the BEST big bore levergun out there. If you can afford a good Browning 1886, you will never, ever regret the purchase.

All that being said, there is one other levergun that bears mentioning here, and thats a Winchester 1895 in 405 Winchester. This rifle in its stock form will shoot a 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps plus and can also shoot pointy bullets because of its magazine.

CRS and Eagles have also now shown that the 1895 Win rifles can be modified to shoot 400 grain bullets at very respectable velocities. No matter, with a good, solid contruction 300 grain solid like the "Punch Bullet" available from Belt Mountain, you could do very well with a stock 405 rifle and chambering. Hey, it worked well for Teddy Roosevelt. Need I say more? The 405 Win gives the 444 Marlin a good run for the money.

Just food for thought.

-Tutt

[AJMD429]

The deal for the Ruger #1 ?????
I have one in 45-70 and 7MM Mag and honestly I find a good Lever like the Browming 1886 or the BLR really shoots about as good. And for true big game hunting especially where any dangerous stuff could be encountered ,why give up a lighter gun with extra rounds if need be especially if it shoots as good.
Myself,I really dont care for the #1 lever also and wished it broke like a H&R Handi. JMO
Ruger #1 owners/lovers dont get mad but twice I have fell for the (they are sooooo much more accurate stuff)??? My Win 70 XTR or my friends Browning BLR(all same 7mm mag)will shoot with that #1 all day long!

I always thought the Rugers were kind of 'spotty' in the accuracy department, unless you modified the forend hanger, and it does seem like the lever is easy to bump and unlock with recoil (at least on the only one I've ever shot). They are STRONG, though...

[wm]

Best is a relative term.......are you talking about hunting and stopping ability against dangerous game or are you talking match grade accuracy or ruggedness or ????

Well that is for you to determine.....all I will say is I that I have a Marlin 336 in 375 Win and it ballistically comes within a red hair of the orignial punch of the 375 H&H magnum that so many African hunters made their bones on.

The Marlin's 336 action is simple, proven, reliable, and easy to maintain. And the rifle is accurate. It is not uncommon for me to shoot a 3 shot group with two touching and a third less than an inch form them.

Is it the best? Eh, I don't know. But it is the best I have.

Wm

[piller]

I own a Marlin Guide Gun and have shot a Miroku 1886 with the same cartridges. Even though I have the Guide Gun, the 1886 is the winner in my opinion. Someday when I have saved up for one, then I will try to find one. For now, the Guide Gun does everything I want to do and does it very well. You won't go wrong with the Marlin in the 1895 configuration if price is a serious concern. If you can afford the 1886, then get it and don't look back. My Guide Gun is more accurate than I am, and it will handle a few of the +P loadings on occasion when I do purchase them from Grizzly. The +P from Grizzly are very accurate in my rifle and I am going to be using them in Africa next year. If you need more than what those cartridges give you, it might be better to go to a bigger caliber. No, I don't plan on hunting anything over there that 45-70 can't handle reliably.

[J Miller]

I have no opinions, only observations.

I have handled the Winchester and Browning 1886 rifles with the octagon barrels and found them to be heavier than I want to carry and somewhat awkward.

I have handled the Marlin 1895 Cowboy with it's 26" octagon barrel and found it much better balanced, easier to carry and bring to the shoulder.

Since I don't have the inclination to load absurdly hot loads both will do what I'd want.
I have fired neither. I want to fire both.
Then I will decide.

Joe

[Mike D.]

Joe, I would shy away from the octagon barrel rifles. For a "fair", at least by weight, comparison try either a Winchester EL or a Browning carbine.

[86er]

Here's another vote for the Winchester (Browning/Miroku) 1886 in 45-70. If you shop around, a standard grade 1886 EL can be found for $800-$900 range. Once in a while the high grades are at or just below $1000 if you look patiently. The 22" barrel gives a bit better performance than an 18" barrel found on the Marlin Guide Gun. The 86's can handle pretty heavy loads. I shot elephant and cape buffalo last year with 405 gr and 430 gr Punch bullets, 450 grain Kodiaks and Northforks, 405 gr Kodiaks and a 540 gr lead Garrett bullet. If you're not needing that much whop then you can go down to 250 gr or up to 350 gr with great bullets available. I've taken quite a number of African plains game (several in the 650-1000 pound range and Eland at 2000+ pounds) out to 175 yards with assorted bullets/velocities in 45-70 and had awesome performance. You can also make it a 45-90 pretty easily (yourself or a professional job) if you desire and thus converted can still shoot 45-70 if you want. The Marlin's typically are NOT converted to 45-90. I think the Winchester variants hold their value better and to me they are better balanced. There are a ton of after market stuff for Marlins - triggers, extractors, mag followers, etc. My 86 has been 100% reliable for over 2500 rounds as it came from the factory (with the exception of the tang safety being disengaged). The Marlin offers easier sighting options, especially for optics but I was able to put a scout scope on my 86 with minimal cost and effort.

[Griff]

It ain't a "big bore" unless the diameter of the bullet starts with a "4".

Of the two contenders... the Winchester/Browning Miroku 1886 is by far the best performer... For every ounce the octagon barreled 1886 is heavier than either the EL or the carbine models is several pounds of recoil removed! I can easily carry a 9-¾ to 10 lb Garand, the 9-¾ to 10 lbs of my 1886 is a piece of cake. I balances better, and with the most of the weight in the barrel & loaded magazine it comes to the shoulder smooth and holds steady for those off-hand field shots.

I must admit, the only hunting I've done with mine was mounted in chase of a bear in the mountains of CA. Either in the scabbard, or in the hand across the thighs, it never got heavy. Ok, so I was younger then, maybe in better shape, but... it still feels substantial when pulled from the safe and pulled to the shoulder. Something that I like in a rifle that can sling a 500 grain slug!

You guys that like your Marlins, keep 'em... don't bother to buy the 1886... I might wanna buy another, and without your added demand, prices might remain stable!

[.45colt]

Wow,Griff. maybe tomorrow I will bury the Marlin under the garden. .It is not worthy. And if I win the lottery I will buy every 86 on the planet and stockpile them just for My family .