357 Levergun vs 30 Carbine vs AR15 - Which for HD?

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon May 31, 2010 11:30 am

Deleted

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon May 31, 2010 11:40 am

Don't know the situation regarding neighbors. But of the three, I'd go with the .30 carbine. With a good HP, it's got plenty of horsepower, and has a much lesser chance of over penetration.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:11 pm

Without reading or considering any other response, I'd have to say go with the .357 Magnum lever-action carbine.

1 - use a lever-gun and you won't come off as some sort of Rambo wannabe.

2- I've head too many old soldiers grumble about ChiCom or Japanese soldiers not falling down to solid hits from an M-1 Carbine.

3 - You will be shooting at bad guys with evil intent at point blank range, not prairie dogs at 300 yards. You need a big solid bullet not a blasted high velocity .22.

4 - If you have to fire and need to top up the magazine, you can, with practice, stuff cartridges into your lever gun without taking it from your shoulder.

5 - even if you have to take the rifle from your shoulder to top off the magazine, you don't have to remove the unfired cartridges in your magazine before you reload. If interrupted mid-reload, you simply start shooting again, you don't have to complete the reload.

6 - From a handgun, the .357 Magnum is the best manstopper on the market. Stepping up velocity a few hundred fps in a carbine won't make it any less.

If you plan to engage the enemy at long range, i.e. 300 yards or more, you might have reason to use the UBG, but you will have a hard time justifying use of lethal force against an enemy that far away.

Inside the house and in the dooryard, I don't think a .357 Magnum Carbine can be improved upon.

Just my thoughts, YMMV

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:21 pm

I do believe that the good DOC has the right prescription for this trouble. However, I still believe any long gun is NOT the best home defense gun when used indoors.

Now, at my place... deadly force is not limited to the house... my property and income partly derive from my livestock... so a .30WCF Trapper or carbine are the primary defensive weapons. Rustlers generally operate in either pairs or three's. So lot's of firepower is not needed.

Let's see; tactically, <whisper mode on> two flats on the front tires, up to 3 bad guys... yep, the Trapper works. <whisper mode off>

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon May 31, 2010 12:44 pm

I am with Doc for the simple reason that the 357 makes a bigger hole.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon May 31, 2010 1:44 pm

My AR variants are resting comfortably in a safe, while a Marlin .44 Mag sits close to the bed ready for anything------ i guess you could say i've already made that choice

--- downsizing to .357 wouldnt change my mind. There's not a bad choice out of those 3 though,

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Mon May 31, 2010 1:46 pm

I'm the kind of person that If I don't feel comfortable hunting with the caliber I won't buy the gun.

Out of those three I'd take the .357

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Mon May 31, 2010 2:07 pm

First I'd say it won't make a spits worth of difference. All are fine. But after further thought I'm gonna go against the grain here and take either of the semi's over the lever gun. I just like simple (not necessarily to be confused with fast, there is a difference) follow up shots. I'm sure in an HD scenario my head is gonna be going a million miles an hour and I want simple, simple, simple. The fewer movements I have to make the better I'm gonna be.

Make mine the .30 carbine with HP's.

LK

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Mon May 31, 2010 2:09 pm

Griff wrote:I do believe that the good DOC has the right prescription for this trouble. However, I still believe any long gun is NOT the best home defense gun when used indoors.[/color] <whisper mode off>

I agree!! But I didn't want to open that can of worms again.

IMO a good reolver is best for inside work, but if you are going to go with a long gun, a .357 Mag Carbine or Trapper is a good choice.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Mon May 31, 2010 2:14 pm

Which one am I most familiar with?

EDIT I have had a Bushy by the bedstand for a long time, but I'll be switching to a Rossi .357 this summer: I've had my fill of anything vaguely military for awhile.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon May 31, 2010 2:23 pm

I use a .38Spl backed up by his & hers 12ga pumps for HD. The .357 carbine is one of my truck guns.

I hardly ever bring out the M1 Carbine or the AR anymore. Not sure I even have more than 20 rounds in stock for the M1.

I suppose oughtta do something about that...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon May 31, 2010 2:38 pm

1. Of the three, any would do, but I'd prefer the .357 Levergun And yes, I'd probably opt for the ,45 Colt or .44 Magnum version.

2.I'd be ok with the M1 Carbine though, but I'd want some non-FMJ factory ammo for it.

3.If I could have my AR in .50 Beowulf (7 rounds fit in the standard 20-round .223 magazines, and it has the power level of a mid-range .45-70),
or in 6.5 Grendel (more mid-level power), I'd consider either outstanding, and the .223 fine, but I really don't like the 'charging handle' of the AR.

A 16" Rossi .45 Colt with Marble's 'Bullseye' sights is FAST handling, compact,
. . . and doesn't have the word "Magnum" for lawyers to get hung up on.

The two semiautomatics would have the advantage if one really had to dish out LOTS of lead, as in a true gang-attack home-invasion scenario, and the AR would be my choice if I had to shoot past 125 yards or so, but the first scenario is extremely unlikely (and if I thought it were likely, I'd either be moving, or have a belt-fed .308), and the second is not ordinarily what one would consider home defense (unless or until total social breakdown happens).

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon May 31, 2010 2:46 pm

Stage them all around the house in places that you can access given entry from front/back, etc. Load the .223 with varmint loads, the .357 with 125 grain loads going 1200 fps or so and the 30 carbine iwth hps or soft points.

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Mon May 31, 2010 3:43 pm

NOTHING ever will be wrong with a ´92 in .357 ( or .44 Mag ), especially in SS ... I have to get one in 16", I am lazy, just because I have two in 20" ... a R in .357 SS and a B in .44 Mighty, 20", ROYAL BLUE!

And for REAL ITSHTF scenarios I´ll take the Featherweight AR 15 in a 16" bbl, especially in a light - to featherweight barrel configuration

with > 10 30rd mags, please, with all the "trimmings" ...

If I think twice, I´ll take BOTH!

( yes, I´ve been known to be around ARFCom

)

One for ready at arm´s lenght, one for ITSHTF ...

Hermann

bhk · Post by **bhk** » Mon May 31, 2010 3:58 pm

I have all three around here (lever gun is a .44, though), and it is the M1 carbine loaded with Remington softpoints that I keep at ready. It is fast to get into action, it is very 'pointable' without using the sights (double taps on 10-15 yard IDPA targets are amazingly easy), and my wife finds it fits her just fine.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Mon May 31, 2010 4:11 pm

None of the above. If you're really concerned about HD, get a cheap shotgun.

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Mon May 31, 2010 4:21 pm

Of the 3 you mention, I'd pick which ever I shot the best at close distance. Or that you already reload for, or however you need to rationalize your choice. Lots of LEOs still carry the 30 carbine on patrol in rural areas around here. Personally, I just down load some .444 for HD since I already have it, otherwise over penetration is a strong consideration.

For your consideration regarding handguns-- with assistance and making sure all weapons are unloaded measure the actual distance from your nose to the end of a handgun barrel using your normal stance in your home. Then do the same with a 20" barrel rifle. I think you will see that the difference in length is not as much as you thought. I'd use a long gun for HD given the option, but I'd also use a handgun to get to one of my long guns if HD at issue.

rimrock

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon May 31, 2010 4:43 pm

Your question, although a good one, is kind of like the lawyer who asks the defendant, "Tell me, have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no."

As to being limited to the carbines that you mention:

1) The M1 Carbine is no stopper, with its GI rounds.
But handload it with some softpoint zingers (like the Hornady 100 gr. Short Point) with 2000 fps+ and you have a great expander with limited penetration. And the rifle has no recoil with a reliable mechanism, giving you deadly aimed rapid fire. I had one - it was quite a shooter, although I didn't handload at the time and I considered the GI ball pretty useless.

2) The 357 lever is a GREAT survival gun - but I don't want to have to work a lever and load through a side gate with a multiple attacking armed assailants (see below).

3) Nix on the .223. Read the e-mails from GI's in the sandbox. When the gubbmint gave me the .22 popgun to replace the excellent full auto version of the M14 .308 rifle that I carried in SE Asia, I was very unhappy. Subsequent problems with its effectiveness and malfunctioning in the tropics in the hands of my fellow soldiers validated my unheeded complaints. It was only good for spray and pray or target practice (a popgun in recoil), as far as I was/am concerned. And its penetration makes it totally unsuitable, unless you purchase those ceramic bullets. I'm not familar with them, since the .223 will never be in my inventory.

Now for serious home defense hardware:
What's wrong with a short 12 gauge?

I keep a Colt .45 ACP with hollowpoints handy, with a .44 Mag DA loaded with .44 Special HP Silvertips as a backup. Both are deadly. Both have limited penetration. Both, when they hit even body armor, will distract the assailant enough to allow me to take a little time to get off a more accurately aimed shot - if necessary.

I can get around the house and yard, negotiating narrow hallways, furniture and obstacles, and with a hand free if needed - much more easily with a handgun than with a shotgun or carbine. I determined this in my law enforcement career and as a concerned father and husband whose deputy sheriff co-worker and neighbor had to endure his wife being raped in a home invasion assault. I vowed that this would not happen at my home.

Every time we talk about self-defense here, the words "shot placement" takes the primary focus of attention. Yes, one is foolish to brandish a firearm and especially a handgun if they don't develop at least a modicum of skill with it. But any talk about maximum wounds from a big or violently expanding slug is immediately discounted by several esteemed hunters, soldiers, marksmen and LE types who post here. So a pistol is deemed inappropriate because a rifle more easily aimed.

It seem that we forget that we are not talking about sniping a combatant from 100 yards, or shooting at a stationary paper target from a bench, or even taking out a running deer from a blind.

Unless the invader just surrenders on the spot, we are talking about defending ourselves against an alerted, moving, armed, advancing assailant at close quarters, who is usually with one or more confederates. At least here in California, the gang problem breeds youngsters who will not hesitate to fire upon any resistance - or even those who they just happen to run across. The days of "You got the drop on me, Lone Ranger, here's my gun" are over.

Unless you are a Jeff Cooper - and there aren't that many of us who are - even if you have the luxury of time and money to spend hours each day with your weapon, perfect shot placement goes out the wndow under the type of stress that tells you that you may die. This isn't just the stress of losing a shooting match, or missing that trophy buck. And again, the attackers don't stand and pose for you. A severely disabling and therefore distracting shot anywhere on the aggressor means that you can then have time to take a more carefully aimed follow-up shot if necessary.

So - I vote for a BIG, NASTY bullet in a small, portable launcher for urban home defense.

If you must use a carbine, you can get a reliable (albeit not very popular) and remakably inexpensive carbine in 9mm, .40 SW or (soon) .45 ACP caliber from HiPoint.

Enter that into Google and you will be amazed - a laser sighted deluxe model for $365.00, if I remember correctly, and an iron sighted one for less. The carbine has been tested at least twice by GunTests.com - a totally non-industry supported and therefore unbiased testing panel. Each time, the function and reliability of the ugly little carbine has received the highest marks, and its 9mm and .40 caliber versions are not finicky with any of the tested types of ammo.

Kid Cossack · Post by **Kid Cossack** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:02 pm

bhk wrote:SNIP! and my wife finds it fits her just fine.

bhk is dropping some free range truth right here! (Never mind that he's arguing in favor of one of them reciprocating firearms.)

One of the reasons (one of the MANY reasons) I like the .357 carbine for HD is that my wife likes it and is comfortable shooting it. Remember, even if YOU aren't home, a loved one might be.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:21 pm

The 20" .357 Rossi lever carbine

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:26 pm

Well, I don't know, none of those three would be my first choice. I have owned two of the Rossi .357 carbine and both were prone to jam, but maybe if I had one that I had used a lot and trusted completely.

I have three AR's and while I have found them to be pretty reliable, I have never been very impressed with their stopping power, heck, I have had coyotes run off after being shot, that would have never left another track if I had shot them with a .308 or 30/30.

The 30 carbine, if orginal GI, and proven to be be reliable, would be fine, maybe, but I probably would not want to use handloads in it, for several reasons.

Personally, I have kept a 5 inch Colt 1911 series 70, for my bed side gun, for going on 30 yrs, it's been used a great deal, for recreation and competition, and it throughly proven by me, to be reliable. However, I keep a smith and Wesson 25-2 revolver at the ready also, along with an old Browning A5, loaded with buckshop.

But I would not hesitate to grab half a dozen other weapons in my safe if need be, with probably one of pre-64 model 94 winchester 30/30's being a likely choice, as I throughly trust them, for social purposes, and if the problem isn't solved with a magazine of 30/30's at home or yard ranges, then I doubt I can solve it with anything short of an FAL and 20 round mag.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:43 pm

Kid Cossack wrote:Remember, even if YOU aren't home, a loved one might be.

Boy, did I drop the ball on that one. Exactly right.

My wife is not any tomboy, nor is she what one would call "aggressive." In fact, she's kind of a sissy(!), Lord bless her. But she learned to be very accurate, under imposed stress, with a little .380 auto and hollowpoints that she used as a carried concealed pistol. And she could manage the .45 pretty well in a pinch. The "kick" of a standard weight, standard size .45 is overrated, in my opinion. The slide just seems to intimidate those who aren't used to the mechanism.

She had no use for the kick of the 12 gauge, nor was she comfortable with any long gun for that matter. Yes, if your loved ones need something less lively than a handgun, they need something that they can handle. I would vote for taking the time with them to familiarize them with a reliable semi-auto action, however; thus the suggestion of the simple blowback carbine sold by HiPoint. The same can be said for the little M1 carbine, if you have one. They are fairly expensive, however, given their limited utility. With either, keep an extra loaded clip or two available and the shooting/loading process is simplified for a home defense scenario.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon May 31, 2010 5:45 pm

I would opt for the M1 Carbine with soft point, expanding ammo. No need to have to work a lever, easier to reload under stress.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Mon May 31, 2010 6:02 pm

lots of good thoughts,

which one, have i trained with?
am i most comfortable with?
am i accurate with?
fits me best?
fits significant other/family best?
can i maneuver[?] around the house?

very personal stuff.
i'd take any one over a stick or a rock[or nothing].

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon May 31, 2010 6:14 pm

Well...

Considering I got rid of my M4gery because it was boring and I couldn't use it for anything but varmints (2or4 legged)...

And the .30 carbine is sort of pointless except as a curio (IMO) because it's also a gas gun (so cat-sneeze is useless)

But I HAVE used my .357 Rossi for everything from squirrels (with low-vel/silent loads) to running 6pt Bucks at 110yds...

I think you know my answer.

Besides... Can you load 3 or 4 75gr "collar button" wadcutters into a .30 carbine/.223 case? I didn't think so.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Mon May 31, 2010 6:27 pm

My heart tells me to go with the .357 levergun.

My head tells me to go with the M1 carbine, from the given choices.

................

I would probably compromise and buy a 7.62x39mm AK.

Jack

gak · Post by **gak** » Mon May 31, 2010 8:29 pm

+1 BHK and JohDeFresno - M1 Carbine all the way for the scenario pictured. I've got the lever(s) mentioned and they're excellent. But when/if major laying down of reliable "firepower" and possible quick re-load need arises, I want the tried n true M1 at hand....and to me handier/quicker/more reliable to bring into action (for me) than the AR. The AR simply not needed until fending off hordes at mix of greater (than M1C) distances, but not "just" the house and immediate environs--and as mentioned, the penetration issue.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Mon May 31, 2010 11:55 pm

Well, since I don't own either of the two semi-auto's but do own a buncha Marlins, the Marlin gets the nod. Plus, there is already a 24" Marlin CB in .44 loaded with 13 .44 specials in the magazine on my side of the bed already.

2x22

ceb · Post by **ceb** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:36 am

First and foremost, like someone above said, I'll probably grab the .45 auto that is always close to hand for inside close defense. And I will admit to having a Marlin .44mag loaded with Winchester 240gr softpoints in the closet. And as a field gun, I love my Marlin .357.

But of the choices given, I'll go with the M1 carbine loaded with softpoint rounds. Mine has proven much more accurate than I expected and reliable. Light, quick into action with fast follow up shots, it will get the job done.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:52 am

I've always wondered why people might want to believe their home defense is going to be a 14-round firefight.
it's probably just going to be brandishing a weapon, and if you shoot, probably just one shot

I know my answer is OT, but my Smith is just right

aside from that, I don't see how any of the three suggested weapons has advantages or disadvantages with the correct HD ammo.
So choose for personal style.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:26 am

I have the top two ready to go, though my M1 has a halo sight on it. Its loaded with remington softpoints. The rossi .357 is loaded also, has a receiver sight on it. I would not feel undergunned with either. Then there is the .45 acp on the night stand, the three .357s in the dresser, the .22 mag in the dresser - the .45 colt and .475 linebaugh in gun room next to the bedroom, the .22s, 12 gauges, 20 gauges, all in the gun room. forgot the .457 mag too. If I have a home intruder intent to do evil, he/they will be met with extreme force. I won't need to reload, just pick up the next one in line.

Seriously, to stay within the constraints of the thread and original posters comments, I would grab the m1 first of the two types I own. I think with the soft points, it is a force to be reckoned with and I kinda disagree about the reloading. I don't have to reload a mag, just drop the one in it and put in another. I have several on the M1 as dressed. alot quicker to load 10, 15, or even 30 rounds than single loading the lever rifle. no need to shoot a magazine empty either, just reload in any down time that occurrs.

I agree with Griff that perhaps the handgun is the best bet for inside shooting and I don't find fault in a shotgun either. both may be better than a rifle indoors though the M1 is a real good contender.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:50 am

Interesting responses. I posted this exact same thing on both AR15.com and Leverguns.com to see what the two different groups thought. Not surprisingly, the AR folks chose the AR more often while the levergun folks chose the Rossi.

Now to my personal choice. As you might expect, the 3 carbines pictured are mine and I reload for them. The actual loads I use for HD in each is as follows:

* 357mag Rossi - 158grn Hornady XTP at 1,825fps
* 30 Carbine - 110grn Speer JHP at 1,910fps
* AR15 - 68grn Hornady BTHP at 2,779fps
(All loads were chrono’d)

Now for the all important question, which one did I pick and why? Actually one of the posters here hit my reasoning pretty squarely when he said, “… it is the M1 carbine loaded with Remington softpoints that I keep at ready. It is fast to get into action, it is very 'pointable' without using the sights (double taps on 10-15 yard IDPA targets are amazingly easy), and my wife finds it fits her just fine.”

My M1 Carbine is my first choice for our HD weapon because my wife is most comfortable with it as her HD weapon. Should we have the time and opportunity to employ a second long gun, up until recently I settled upon my AR for me. However, recently I decided to retire the AR from that role because of it’s bulk, large flash, loud noise, and small, light bullet weight in favor of my 357mag levergun.

I switched platforms because I decided that at point blank ranges seen in homes, I feel the larger bullet diameter is a better choice. Coupled with my G23, I feel it a superior choice for my situation because it's lighter, with less flash and noise, and shoots the largest dia / highest weight bullet which produces as much ME as the AR but with a considerably larger hole. The fact that it’s not an EBR is a third order consideration.

I did note that some of you have mentioned defense of outbuildings / livestock on your property. This is a legitimate factor to consider and would influence my choice if I had a similar situation. As I don’t, defense against 2 legged threats is all I’ve considered. However, if I were to need to arm myself for a national or local disaster, then I’d have the time to prepare and arm myself differently; i.e. bunkered defense vs traveling defense and my choices would made upon the specific situation at that time. More than likely, my ARs would be my choice because of their increased firepower,

In the end, I think any of the three would be a fine choice for a ‘something went crash in the night’ situation assuming that you were well schooled in your platform choice and practice with it sufficiently to be proficient. It really would come down to this for me, I'd use whichever was the closest.

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:06 am

Gotta go against the grain and go with the AR. Look, bad guys are traveling in packs, they are more heavily armed than they used to be. Somebody tell me when you were in a fight and said, "Gee, I wish I didn't have these extra rounds...

" Fights are chaotic, and everybody moves. You think you're going to hit them with every round you have? Having extra ammo on board gives me one less thing to worry about for a little bit. 30 or 40 rounds on tap is never a bad thing. You can choose the type of ammo you put in it, let's not get wrapped around the axle about "well, it's just a big .22 rifle!" Cor Bon DPX is a fantastic round, and is the one I would use in the AR. Tell me which one of you wants to stand in front of it and let me shoot you; then I'll gladly give up my ARs and my AKs.

I keep an AK loaded with 40 rounds of Cor Bon DPX by the bed. When I lived in the urban environment, I did the same thing. It also rides in the truck with me. Why purposely handicap myself? Unless I live in a draconian state such as California, Illinois or New York, I'm not going to. I have too much to fight for, namely my wife and children. At that point, sentimentality goes out the window.

Mitch1352 · Post by **Mitch1352** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:20 am

Interesting idea. If I lived by myself, meaning there would be no other family member to have to know how to use the rifle, I think a Remington 870. Their reduced recoil 00 buck is great out to about 20 yards, which is as far as I will need to shoot in a home defense arena. If I was restricted to a rifle, any of the 3 would be just fine. The recoil and muzzle blast will be about the same for all 3 and the perp-end smack would also be plenty.
If I had family at home (and I do), and I could choose between the 3 (and I can), I think the M1 carbine. I have several of each type but the carbine seems to be the easiest for my wife and daughters to manipulate and shoot. My son has a Scattergun Tech 870 that he has grown quite fond of and he shoots it well, so I know what he would take.
I'm not too worried about a home invasion-type scenario because I don't sell dope or steal cars, I don't consort with lewd women (well, there was that one time in Manila when...oh, never mind) and I live in a good place. Not saying it can't happen to me, but I don't sweat it too much. I watch my rearview mirror when I leave my precinct so I think I would spot some thug following me home after my shift looking for some catch-up. Shame on him.

willygene · Post by **willygene** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:35 am

i will stick with my lever guns and use the carbine as back up it may hold more ammo but don't shoot any better and has less knock down on the receiving end, and i sold my ar's and if it's real close ill give'm some 00 buck from my 12ga.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:45 am

Familiarity with a weapon can mean success or not when hunting and life or death in a protection situation a persons mind has to evaluate operation of a particular gun. I keep my small bore, medium bore and large bore the same action and operation. If you have practiced with a certain gun drawing, dry firing and live firing your mind files a program to memory if you change weapons you will interrupt that program wheres the safety, the hammer what action is this. If you have to look down to see what weapon your carrying and bring up the memory program it could cost you meat or your life. danny

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:52 am

Steve Collins wrote:bad guys are traveling in packs...
...when you were in a fight.. ...
You think you're going to hit them with every round you have? ...

you really believe this? last engagement I heard like that was in Waco, or maybe drug wars.
anybody who shoots back that much is probably the police.
home-invading perps don't have the conviction to hang around once the shooting starts

I do keep corbon in my handy speed loader - the idea is to prevent over-penetration.
a handy arm in close spaces, yes, that is important, but to hit a dinner plate a 10' you don't need to double hole anything.

BigSky, thank you, you nailed it.
second nature in the dark is what you need...

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:13 pm

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.d ... /100339970

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.p ... e+invasion

Here's just a couple of incidents where 6 shots in a revolver, or 2 shots in a side by side, wouldn't have been enough. I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong; I'm just saying look at what's going on out there, and stop looking at everything through the old "most fights end with only 2.3 rounds being fired," "you're more apt to only have to show your gun than to have to use it," etc. Are you going to prepare for what can happen, or what you hope will happen?

I can show more, if you like...

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:19 pm

OK, thanks, and if you show it, you have to be prepared to use it...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:10 pm

Take the M1 Carbine !

I have two old ones in a couple good places in our house along with a revlover and a Sparten 12 gauge SxS with 20" barrels .

All for unwanted intruders !

wilko · Post by **wilko** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:08 pm

None of the above... it would be a 12 gauge with #4 pheasant load shells.

But since you want one of the 3 you listed:

Doc Hudson wrote: 1 - use a lever-gun and you won't come off as some sort of Rambo wannabe.

My thoughts exactly !!!!

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:18 pm

.357 levergun. Proven man stopper in a handgun. Loads can be tailored so as not to over penetrate, easy to reload on the fly and easy for others in the family to learn. Semi-autos have a tougher manual of arms for the non-gun types who might need to use it. I have no problem with any of the choices, but I like the .357.

If I had another choice it would be a shotgun, probably a short barrel version and might even be my coach gun. Everyone knows how to work it.

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:50 pm

Going with the limits placed in the original question, I would take the levergun. I trust the .357, I like the idea of a wider frontal area, and my wife can use a levergun. I would, however, do a simple polish job on the ramp and the back end of the chamber to ensure smooth feeding. A dremel tool with the long polishing bonnet, a stick of jeweler's rouge from the welding section of Lowe's, and a little time will allow me to polish most things. I use the 2 light touches of the polishing, wipe it off, and try it method and have not yet removed too much metal on anything that I know of. It does take a lot of time and a lot of patience, but it seems to be worth it. I did this to a bolt action rifle and actually got a little bit better accuracy out of it. My guess is that the lugs may have mated up with a little more of their total surface after the polishing, but I didn't remove enough metal to truly do much. My micrometer had it as .0002 inch removed (accuracy of that micrometer is listed at + or - .0002 inch), and that is as much as I was willing to do, but that bolt opens and closes with a little less force now, and actually feels as if it locks more securely as it goes to the fully locked position. All I think I did on it was just do what several hundred cycles of opening and closing would have done to it anyway.

Alan Wood · Post by **Alan Wood** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:49 pm

Steve Collins wrote:http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.d ... /100339970

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.p ... e+invasion

Here's just a couple of incidents where 6 shots in a revolver, or 2 shots in a side by side, wouldn't have been enough. I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong; I'm just saying look at what's going on out there, and stop looking at everything through the old "most fights end with only 2.3 rounds being fired," "you're more apt to only have to show your gun than to have to use it," etc. Are you going to prepare for what can happen, or what you hope will happen?

I can show more, if you like...

Wow what a pucker factor those situations!

Hankster · Post by **Hankster** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:29 am

Levergun stoked with "proper" 38's.....
Why?? the.357, the .223 with spitzer ammo, will go thru walls easily. I dont think you want to kill family members in adjacent rooms!! Or in Apt's next door etc....
TOO MUCH bang is BAD indoors!! Good 38's were manstoppers for decades, use the right bullet, and you're good to go! The thirty carbine?? shoot paper outdoors with it...... it's history as a "man-dropper" is checkered at best. You want RELIABLILTY, at that moment, if it arrives!!
Just my humble opinion....

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:41 am

piller wrote:Going with the limits placed in the original question, I would take the levergun..... and my wife can use a levergun.

That's my situation too. My wife is handy as all get-out with a levergun.

2x22

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:46 am

I also would go with the .357 Levergun.My HD is a Ole reliable SRC 94 winnie in "thurty-thurty".The behind the seat truckgun is another SRC 94 in 30 WCF also

.

Lawyer Daggit · Post by **Lawyer Daggit** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:57 am

I have most experience with a lever action in 357 or 44 so this would be my first choice.

Before that failed politician, John Howard, darned us with his rediculous gun laws, I owned a M1 carbine. With GI loads I agree, it is very weak, but it can perform respectably with commercial loads. On the basis of past experience with this firearm, this would be my second choice.

AR would be third. My only experience with an AR was with an AR10 over twenty years ago, and that only involved a box or two of ammo.

If I had recent experience with the AR I would pick it. The barrel length issue would be determined by how close the engagement was likely to be. If CQB the 14.5 would win out.

Research has shown that in skilled hands, a lever action is right up there with a semi auto carbine- the only thing it cannot really do efficiently being laying down suppressive fire- hardly a consideration in a one gun fight.

As a lawyer I am concerned about the adverse impression that could be made at trial, and before trial by the media of 'an assault rifle', but would rate this secondary to either my survivability or that of my family.

In a short range scuffle my first pick would actually be a shotgun- either pump action or side by side with auto ejectors.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:38 am

Doc Hudson wrote:Without reading or considering any other response, I'd have to say go with the .357 Magnum lever-action carbine.

1 - use a lever-gun and you won't come off as some sort of Rambo wannabe.

2- I've head too many old soldiers grumble about ChiCom or Japanese soldiers not falling down to solid hits from an M-1 Carbine.

3 - You will be shooting at bad guys with evil intent at point blank range, not prairie dogs at 300 yards. You need a big solid bullet not a blasted high velocity .22.

4 - If you have to fire and need to top up the magazine, you can, with practice, stuff cartridges into your lever gun without taking it from your shoulder.

5 - even if you have to take the rifle from your shoulder to top off the magazine, you don't have to remove the unfired cartridges in your magazine before you reload. If interrupted mid-reload, you simply start shooting again, you don't have to complete the reload.

6 - From a handgun, the .357 Magnum is the best manstopper on the market. Stepping up velocity a few hundred fps in a carbine won't make it any less.

If you plan to engage the enemy at long range, i.e. 300 yards or more, you might have reason to use the UBG, but you will have a hard time justifying use of lethal force against an enemy that far away.

Inside the house and in the dooryard, I don't think a .357 Magnum Carbine can be improved upon.

Just my thoughts, YMMV

+1 on all that logic!

The first point can't be under-estimated. You want a man-stopper if it needs to be used, but then, after that, you need to worry about perception. A levergun is simply not going to look as "bad" as anything resembling a military arm.

Real world - usually doesn't make a lot of sense, but we gotta live in it!

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:56 am

My "Home Defense" gun is going to be whichever one I can get my hands on quickest. My lever guns, which are the one's I consider my most valuable, are all normally locked in the safe and my carbine is at Mom's so it's out. That pretty much leaves either a 16" ultra-lite AR15, an AK47, an 18.5" 870 Remington, an 18.5" Browning A5 or one of three Glock 9mm's stashed around the house. My preferred gun would be one of the shotguns which are both loaded with Remington 000 buckshot. Any of the above will get the job done.

Although I do agree that over penetration is a concern, I believe it's way over-played when pre-planning for home defense. Using a gun/cartridge that stops the assailant in the least amount of rounds that I fire, and thereby stopping him/them from shooting up my house and neighborhood, provides the best safety factor for me and my neighbors. In my area of the country, I'm lucky, I don't have to worry too much about lawyers making me out a "Rambo" because I had to shoot an assailant with an AR or AK, the juries around here tend to look at the reasons for the shooting itself, not the tool used.

Guys, I know this is a lever-gun forum and that we all love lever guns. But when chosing a gun for self or home defense choosing a lever gun over a pump shotgun or semi-auto rifle is NOT the best choice we can make, especially if one is already owned. Will a lever-gun work....heck yea, if that's what you've got at hand. I certainly wouldn't throw one down to run grab one of the others. But it's like choosing a hand saw over a power saw for building a house. I don't mean to offend anyone, and hope I haven't, but we're talking about the last "game" we may ever play and I choose to use the best tools I have available for the job.

Rob