OT - COPS, just because they carry a gun.......

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:38 pm

I was watching COPS on tv a few minutes ago. These guys get a suicide call. They show up at the house, subdue the suspect, then go into the house to retrieve the gun he was allegedly threatening himself with. It was a single action revolver, a Ruger Blackhawk, I think, but I'm not sure. Anyway, one of the officers picks up the gun and starts to check to see if it's loaded. He turns it around in his hands, fumbling with it for a few seconds with a really puzzled look on his face. He then looks up at the other officer and asks, "You know how to open this thing?". I had to crack a smile on that one. I understand that cops aren't necessarily knowledgeable or proficient with firearms, but I think they should be. I also understand that there is a learning curve when dealing with a brand new gun you may have never seen before, but this still made me laugh a little.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:52 pm

I'm sad to say that a lot of the local LEOs pay to have a gunsmith clean their weapons because they have no idea how to service or clean them. Their knowledge of firearms is the equivalent of the auto driver who only knows, 'the long skinny one makes it go while the short fat one makes it stop.' Sad but true.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:49 am

....and you think your Cops are Firearm ignorant?!?

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:24 am

I had to take a NYS Trooper to Blackhawk clearing school once, AT GUNPOINT. I was trying out a new gun behind my dad's house a few weeks after the tragedy at Columbine, dad and I were popping milk jugs full of water, when a neighbor's babysitter called the law claiming she saw KIDS with a gun (I was 40 yrs old).

This young trooper showed up as I was getting ready to leave, we're in the front yard, etc, and draws down on me yelling "put the gun on the ground" I refused to put my new revolver in the gravel driveway, told him I didn't want to put it in the gravel, instead offered it to him, holding it by the barrel, the grip pointed toward him (gun had just been cleared 1 minute before). He gingerly took it from me, holstered his Glock, tried to clear it, his adrenaline-dump evident as his fingers wouldn't work, then said "how do you open this thing?" I said "open the gate", at which point he cocks the gun while pointing it at my belly.
I started to get perterbed now, and said "let me show you."
He hands it back to me with one hand, draws his Glock with the other, holds his pistol at "low ready" while I opened the gate and spun the cylinder to show clear, then handed it back to him. He put the gun on the seat in the car while checking my permit, my story, dad's story, back to the neighbors, decided no charges, then finally gave it back to me.

I pointedly asked "don't they teach you guys this stuff?"

"At the academy they showed us a couple of pistols and a swing out revolver. That's it." Being a "city kid", he'd never dealt with a SA revolver in his life.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:01 am

When I was in law enforcement, there was a Deputy that I worked with that didn't own a single gun. He didn't like guns, and carried his duty Glock with an empty chamber.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:34 am

No comment.
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'Cause once I started you guys wouldn't get anything done from laughin' at the stories I could bore ya with!

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:19 am

It surprised me when I found out how many cops aren't "Gun People."

Never occurred to me that it could be so, but it is.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:11 am

vancelw wrote:It surprised me when I found out how many cops aren't "Gun People."

Never occurred to me that it could be so, but it is.

Me too, I just had a conversation with a retired State Trooper who had bought a .22 for his grandson for his birthday. Could not explain to me if it was a bolt action, semi-auto or what, just knew it was a .22.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:30 am

Griff, I'll tell you - you are the best!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:53 am

I'm with Griff, but I will say that our academy didn't teach anything about single actions and I'll whole heartedly agree that most cops aren't gun guys.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:39 am

A pal of mine bought the service revolver from a local retired cop.
The shells were corroded tightly in place and the mainspring screw was backed out so far that the gun would not fire.
It had been carried on duty that way for several decades.
Annual firearms qualification was optional for the local PDs until just a few years ago.

Jack

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:41 am

Or the friend of mine, retired local cop, tells how after being on the force 20 yrs, he had to rush to a local gunsmith with his revolver and gunbelt the day before the department was to hold a one day training on the new semi, then issue them. He figured he'd better clean his revolver before turning it in, but couldn't get it out of the holster after having worked many times in the rain and just hung the rig on the back of the bedroom door at home, gun still holstered.

The LGS owner got em divorced and the gun somewhat cleaned, patched up the bald spots after removing rust with some cold blue.....

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:45 am

We had a guy that lost his job because he "acquired" a .25 auto during his shift and as he was sitting in an out of the way area talking to another deputy he used the acquired auto to put a round through his windshield... from the inside.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:01 pm

Griff:

Rusty wrote:We had a guy that lost his job because he "acquired" a .25 auto during his shift and as he was sitting in an out of the way area talking to another deputy he used the acquired auto to put a round through his windshield... from the inside.

Reminds me of a tech my dad used to work with. The guy was a reserve officer of some sort in a small town IIRC. One night he was "cleaning" his service weapon while sitting in the car. Someone came up in the dark and knocked on the window to get his attention. It startled him and he put a round through the windshield.

The same guy got so excited making a call for back-up when he encountered a b&e that he notified the dispatcher he had a "bu-gurg-ler"...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:57 pm

The dumbing-down of many LE agencies has been going on for a llloooonnnnngggg. time. The "Powers that Be" would rather recruit some snot-nosed college grad, with a degree in sociopathy, than comb the community for self-reliant, hard-working types, who have local ties, and have the interest of community & residents at heart. The obvious FACT that far too many of these 90-day wonders don't know -- or much care -- which end of the gun the cartridges go in and the bullets come out, can be traced directly to the hoplophobic educational institutions and the self-righteous, whining, head-in-the-sand press, both of which do their damndest to mis-shape public opinion and perception...

It doesn't help that, in our local case, the median age of police officers is 27 years... These boys spend way too much time being mis-taught at the academies, then passing ghost stories amongst themselves, to the point that many are literally afraid of their own shadows.

Heaven Help Us...!!!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:07 pm

I am more concerned with the lack of firearm LAW knowledge.

Though, in a profession where you can and will face the wrong end of all kinds of guns, it seems to me that they should take some time at the academy to familiarize the cadets with the various types of guns and how they work....

Markbo · Post by **Markbo** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:51 pm

Oh my gosh... it hurts... my ribs hurt. I'll catch my breath, but please... don't stop!!!

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:20 pm

TedH wrote:When I was in law enforcement, there was a Deputy that I worked with that didn't own a single gun. He didn't like guns, and carried his duty Glock with an empty chamber.

his name wasn't barney, was it?

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:02 pm

It's true a lot of cops are not gun people at all, and while nowdays, I think they do, in general have better training then in the past, but I still believe that many policeman cannot shoot very well at all.

For one thing most of them don't shoot very much, although there are exceptions to the rule, and some are very good shots. But when I used to shoot IPSC, I remember back in the eairly 80's, that we would have a few cops shoot in our IPSC matches and generally they did not do that well.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:03 pm

our range gunsmith likes to tell stories and he was telling me of working in a gunshop, and certain cops used to come in to buy one shotgun shell at a time.

His belief was they would shoot at road signs out of boredom and then had to replace the shotgun shells they used.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:56 pm

"The "Powers that Be" would rather recruit some snot-nosed college grad, with a degree in sociopathy, than comb the community for self-reliant, hard-working types, who have local ties, and have the interest of community & residents at heart. "

I worked & eventually retired from a department that did both. Working with cops who could barely could read and write was difficult. It was always those guys who tried to settle every dispute by hitting somebody. It was always those guys who got sued by the members of the community they were working for.

Lawyer Daggit · Post by **Lawyer Daggit** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:35 am

In Australia firearms training for Police is equally poor- comprising largely of studying the Glock manual and a limited degree of range practice.

On visiting the range on one occasion while attending a course conducted at the NSW Police Academy, I was impressed by the range but horrified at the low quality of what passed for acceptable shooting.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:47 am

Yep, bureaucrats all over the world don't mind spending our money for fancy facilities for themselves, but then ask them to earn the right to use them and you'll find they'll all be scurrying under the closest rock.

creosote · Post by **creosote** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:08 am

A few years ago I traded off my 1/2 scale Napolean cannon to a younger friend of mine.
The cannon has a 2 5/16" bore and is quite heavily built.
We live next to a Naval Weapons Range 100 miles from any population center of note,in a
creosote dominated desert with the Sierra Nevada Range to our immediate west.
Anyway Matt took the cannon and his two kids out west of town and proceeded to load
up two onces of 1f with a firmly tamped potatoe or two for a projectile, this was just a noise making expedition, and they were having a real good time.
Then Barney Fifes evil twin came out to investigate, he used glasses on them and called for back up. The Highway Patrol and the city police showed up to lend a hand to the sheriffs deputy
Matt said they came up and took cover behind the doors of the vehicles and started to give instructions to him with the loud speaker,but then the cop said"Matt is that you?'
My buddy is well known in town and just a heck of a fine fellow, everyone stood down and looked over what was going on and proceeded to help bust a couple of more potatoes. as they were getting ready to pack up and leave the deputy who just knew he was going to get a bunch of terrorists and their evil weapon came hiking up, he got his car stuck in the sand
as he was trying to sneak around the back way in a lame blocking action or something.
He was said to be upset that no one was in cuffs and the other leo`s did not have much to say to him. The CHP called him a tow truck. He was the only one who did not have a good time,GRIN.
creosote

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:25 am

Buck Elliott wrote:The dumbing-down of many LE agencies has been going on for a llloooonnnnngggg. time. The "Powers that Be" would rather recruit some snot-nosed college grad, with a degree in sociopathy, than comb the community for self-reliant, hard-working types, who have local ties, and have the interest of community & residents at heart. The obvious FACT that far too many of these 90-day wonders don't know -- or much care -- which end of the gun the cartridges go in and the bullets come out, can be traced directly to the hoplophobic educational institutions and the self-righteous, whining, head-in-the-sand press, both of which do their damndest to mis-shape public opinion and perception...

I sure wish you would quit beating around the bush - if you have something to say, just say it.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:32 am

I think Buck nailed it. - DixieBoy

Hankster · Post by **Hankster** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:08 pm

Live in a small town in Central Missouri, cops hereabouts are all cool that i've met.... Most of the County Deputies have all been cool, we had several that came into where I used to work a lot for car parts etc for the squad cars... had a good time talking guns, dopey people they busted etc... fun time stuff.. now, you head east towards bigger towns outlying Counties near St Louis etc etc... JERKS!

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Yep, surprise here upon realizing some LEOs don't know much about guns.. But too.. When I was in my early thirties I had a cop let me off with a warning after he recognized I was on my way to the range to shoot my 1871 Mauser

.....

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:00 pm

I have found that the more rural an area is, the more laid back the cops will be, if they come in contact with citizens with guns, etc.

My last contact for me was back in the winter, and I was driving my old Jimmy through down town, (well it's only a bank and cafe on one side of the road, and a general store on the other, but the speed limit was 35 and I was doing 50. A state trooper pulled me over, and told me how fast I was going. I told him, I was sorry, and I had just plain not been paying attention, and was headed to feed some cattle, for a relative, who was out of town at the time.

He asked for ID and insurance papers, at which time I told him I had a CCW License, and was carrying, I gave him my DL but was still hunting for my CCW, and my insurance, he said keep looking, and he went back to the car to run my driver's license, Then he came back, and I had my vehicle insurance found, he looked at to see if it was current, and never asked for my CCW, nor did he even asked where my pistol was, and he didn't say a thing about my loaded Browning BLR, laying in the front seat with me.

He only gave me a warning for speeding and I thanked him and went on my way, but never said a thing about my guns or the fact that I didn't have my seatbelt on either. He could have probably give me all kinds of grief if he had wanted to.

I later found out from another state trooper, that I was visiting with, at local gunshop, that the trooper who pulled me over, was a lifetime resident of the same county, even though I did not know him. So, I figured that might have made the difference.

Another time, I got pulled over for speeding in a bigger town in the same area, and after telling the city cop, that I had a CCW, but I wasn't carrying that day, he ran my license, and only gave me a warning ticket, but then he started talking guns, and asked me how I carried, and how often I carried, what kind of guns I carried, just making friendly conversation. I figured he probably did know his guns, and was a gun person.

Once again, even though it was in the city, it was still basically a rural surrounding area, and to be honest, I figure after pulling over illegals, etc all day, both cops were probably just enjoying a contact with an honest citizen with no record, and probably gave me a break, because of it.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:45 pm

I have definitely seen a big difference between big city cops, and LEO's from rural areas. I dove hunt in Fannin County near a little no stop light town called Gober. A few years ago the friend that owns the land up there and I were headed into town for some refreshments after our morning hunt, and I got stopped for my inspection sticker being expired. We had all kinds of guns in the back seat, some probably loaded, some not. All of the shotguns were unloaded, I do know that. The officer just asked me if the guns were loaded, and I told him I wasn't sure about the rifles and pistols. He gave me no grief, and only asked us to please stand behind the truck while he ran my license. I can understand that. He did give me a ticket, but no grief for the guns to my pleasant surprise. That could have been a whole different ballgame in Dallas. My best friend is a Dallas officer, and I know several others. Most of them are pretty good guys and have some common sense, but I know enough of them to know that some certainly don't.

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:58 pm

Well I just retired after 35 years as state certifed instructor. I am more than a little upset with current policies regarding firearms instruction. Lead is poison and you really shouldn't shoot lead bullets, but if you have to don't eat or smoke on the range and wash your hands immediatly after contact, wear latex gloves and face mask... Don't keep a loaded gun at home you might hurt someone. Most of the training is more concerned with civil liability that keeping a recruit alive.

Now about your average rookie, maybe 1 out of 10 is interested in guns and has shot one before he gets to the range. The rest start from scratch and in 40 hours of classroom and range training are expected to qualify (shoot 70%) with their duty weapons. They spend maybe 1 hour on other weapons they might encounter, like those old revolvers the old guys had to carry. Most can actually field strip their duty gun when they leave the academy but once they get to their agencies they are required to shoot at LEAST once a year 50 rounds and if 70% of them are on target that will hold them for another year. All incentives for betterment have been removed and there is little if any interdepartmental shooting and there are no pistol teams left any more. No one has or cares to have a marksman medal on their uniform.

My personal feeling is that if thye thought they could get away with it we would all be unarmed.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:24 pm

KCSO wrote:...My personal feeling is that if thye thought they could get away with it we would all be unarmed.

Just like your average Bobby... when TSHTF, they have to call for a Firearms Unit...

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:49 am

KCSO wrote:Well I just retired after 35 years as state certifed instructor. I am more than a little upset with current policies regarding firearms instruction. Lead is poison and you really shouldn't shoot lead bullets, but if you have to don't eat or smoke on the range and wash your hands immediatly after contact, wear latex gloves and face mask... Don't keep a loaded gun at home you might hurt someone. Most of the training is more concerned with civil liability that keeping a recruit alive.

Now about your average rookie, maybe 1 out of 10 is interested in guns and has shot one before he gets to the range. The rest start from scratch and in 40 hours of classroom and range training are expected to qualify (shoot 70%) with their duty weapons. They spend maybe 1 hour on other weapons they might encounter, like those old revolvers the old guys had to carry. Most can actually field strip their duty gun when they leave the academy but once they get to their agencies they are required to shoot at LEAST once a year 50 rounds and if 70% of them are on target that will hold them for another year. All incentives for betterment have been removed and there is little if any interdepartmental shooting and there are no pistol teams left any more. No one has or cares to have a marksman medal on their uniform.

My personal feeling is that if thye thought they could get away with it we would all be unarmed.

I would have to mirror your thoughts. Our state LE education board reduced the criteria for being a firearms instructor last year...because they were tired of Chiefs whinning that their people couldn't pass the class. Now they're having trouble getting enough "outside" instructors, the state academy only employees four instructors and relies on PD's or us retired instructors to fill the voluntarily the ranks during academies, because all us "old fanny burbs" are in a state of rebellion over it. I know instructors, me for one, that used to burn vacation to go teach at the academy out of a sense of responsiblilty and because it was fun. Not any more.

Now they're talking about reducing the number of rounds fired by cadets during the academy. Going the wrong way if you ask me.

Rob

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:19 am

When I started dating my wife she had been a cop for 14 years or so in a little department here in Pa, I was at the PD one day and asked about the 870 in the corner. "It's there to go to the gunshop for cleaning" What????
None of the officers(4 patrolmen and a Chief) knew how to clean a shotgun, so they would just take it to the gunsmith in town for a cleaning every so often. I taught her to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and function check all the department shotguns(they all knew how to do their handguns...sorta). Then they got an AR for a trunk gun OH BROTHER! Well after a while they got an officer who knows guns pretty well, but none of these guys shoot unless it's "qualification time". My brother was a Chief of Police, my father in law is a cop, my wife is a laid off cop, and none of them shoot EVER. My great grandfather was a cop and he was a shooter but it was a different time, what's up with this?? Tom

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:25 pm

If they're gonna carry a sidearm, they have a solemn RESPONSIBILITY to know HOW, WHEN, WHERE and WHEN NOT to shoot the darned thing!!!!!!! They OWE that to the citizens they signed on to "protect..."

They have to DUMP the "us vs them" mentality that seems to be part of the psychological makeup of so many present-day badge-pushers.

In other words, it's time that LEOs re-entered the human race. Might do them, and us, some good.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:51 pm

Don't really mean to paint the whole profession with a broad brush. There are a lot of good, solid, dedicated officers out there. We even have a few around here. What bothers me is the growing trends I see, in recruitment and training. As has been noted, when any number of candidates can't meet the requirements, the folks on top either choose or are required to lower the bar for the incoming incompentents... It's not a pretty -- or hopeful -- picture.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:57 pm

This is an interesting thread.

I have an old and dear friend who was on the NYPD back in the
1950's. His carreer ended when he got shot. He was also a
competitive shooter (being an NYPD cop and a competitive
shooter did NOT necessarily go hand-in-hand!), and eventually
made NRA Master. He's up in his 80s now and still knows which
end of a 1911 goes bang pretty well...........

Anyway, back then ya just had to qualify slowfire with your duty
gun, and I'm not even sure it was yearly. He used to bring his
competition revolver to the range, and the rangemasters really
didn't know the difference. Guys would pay other guys to shoot their
targets for 'em - all sorts of shenanigans went on. The late
Jim Cirillo came from that department, too, so the marksmanship
wasn't ALL bad!

Fast forward to today in the State of Maine: The State boys (and girls!)
have to qualify twice a year, shooting somewhere around 300-500 rounds
from the service pistol (H&K 45 these days). Rifle qualification is ALWAYS
the week or two before deer season. (Quite a conincidence,that.....

)
I know the fella who used to train Augusta's PD. He was - and still is - a
very good firearms instructor. The last fatal shooting that I know about
involving his department was over after three rounds of 40 S&W, and the
miscreant didn't survive the encounter. Compare that to some of the big
city shootouts - 40 or 50 rounds fired for a couple or no hits.

Also in recent times, it wasn't too many years ago when a large percentage of Washington
DC's cops hadn't ever fired their carry guns. Some of them trained with revolvers
at the academy, and were issued pistols to carry!

I think, on balance, that firearms training has improved for cops from where it
was in the 1950s. There are still, however, many, many cops who aren't good
or safe enough with firearms to be trusted with one. Are there more good shots
today because of modern training methods? Or were there more in years past,
particularly in rural and State departments where recruits were more familiar
with firearms?

One thing is for sure - there are NO national minimum standards for police marksmanship.
There are no standards in the State of Maine, either. Some departments have no
yearly qualification requirements, and some require qualification several times a year.
All over the place.

I agree wholeheartedly with Buck, though:

"If they're gonna carry a sidearm, they have a solemn RESPONSIBILITY to know HOW, WHEN, WHERE and WHEN NOT to shoot the darned thing!!!!!!! They OWE that to the citizens they signed on to "protect..."

Like I said, an interesting thread!
-Stretch

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:34 am

I guess it was about 6 years ago the State started requiring annual quals for all LEO's, a very simple 20rd course with only 2rds fired at 50yds. Two years later they changed the course to a 25rd course with nothing fired at the 50yd line, again because the Chief's were whinning that their admin staff and detectives were having trouble qualifying.

I got it passed thru our budget in the fire marshal's office that we got 50rds per month for training, the PD got the same and managed to get a marksmanship incentive added to their contract. The Chief couldn't hit squat and figured it wouldn't cost that much. WRONG!!! We worked for several weeks with anyone that wanted to improve and it showed, not only on their scores but on their paychecks. Those who played got paid.

Rob

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:41 pm

In-depth training at Thunder Ranch or LFI or some similar school would weed out the slackers, I'm sure. We have to train their brains -- their MINDS -- before anything beyond very basic firearm training is of any use to the community.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:05 pm

We once had a chief of Police in our little one horse town who didn't believe in guns. Not kidding. Rules dictated that he HAD to carry a gun so he did. But not a single shell on him. Not even in his patrol car.

Thankfully he wasn't around long enough to get anyone hurt.

2x22

papabear · Post by **papabear** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:25 pm

I had a neighbor who was a city cop would give me his gun once a month to clean he never learned how to do it and never wanted to know how lazy bum but a good neighbor

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:21 am

A couple years ago when my son went for his firearms proficiency for his security license he came home at the end of day one and said he couldn't hit the target with a S&W revolver. Like me he has never been taught to shoot DA and like me he can't hit the broad side of a barn that way. I told him to go in next day and shoot single action instead, but he came home and said that firearms branch don't allow single action shooting because if you've got time to cock it you've got time to think of another solution to the problem. Well I know how fast I can cock and fire a single action and all I can say is "Dang, those cops must be able to think fast"