Who's making a 1886 Winchester replicas?

[Rifleman336]

Looking at Doug Turnbull's web sight, I like their services to make it look more period correct or restore.

But I could afford a real one, nor would I want to "mess" with it. So who if anybody making a replica of Winchester 1886? By the same token how strong is the design? Can it take the pressures the Marlin 1895, can with the hoped up loads?

Also what the advantage if any to the .475 Turnbull over the .45-70 higher pressure loads.

Rifleman 336

[Don McDowell]

Winchester still offers the 1886.
There's an outfit been threatening to bring in an Italian copy of the 86 , but I don't think it's ever made it to dealers shelves yet.

Truth be told the 45-70 even at "trapdoor" levels will kill anything on the continent. When crowded a bit with smokeless powders it'll do more than what even the biggest of the old Sharps cartridges could do.

86 is a strong action, but it still has it's limits, but works just dandy for the cartridges it was designed for.

[tman]

Winchester still offers the 1886.
There's an outfit been threatening to bring in an Italian copy of the 86 , but I don't think it's ever made it to dealers shelves yet.

Truth be told the 45-70 even at "trapdoor" levels will kill anything on the continent. When crowded a bit with smokeless powders it'll do more than what even the biggest of the old Sharps cartridges could do.

86 is a strong action, but it still has it's limits, but works just dandy for the cartridges it was designed for.

+1

[Buck Elliott]

With nickel-steel barrels, the Model of 1886 made a smooth transition into the smokeless powder era.

Strong as a Marlin 95...? Surely you jest...

Yes -- and stronger.

[Mike D.]

Buck is absolutely correct. An 1886 will fire and easily eject loads that would bind a Marlin 1895( Actually a 336) with it's single rear locking lug.

[Rifleman336]

Well it's nice to see that it's strong enough, but I tried to look it up on Winchesters site, I couldn't find a 1886. Their was a 1885 in .45-90. Do they alternate years?

Looks nice for sure, I just wondering where I could find a modren one so as to not worry about using a piece of history.

Rifleman 336

[rjohns94]

If you go to gunbroker.com you can find lots of Winchesters of the 1886 model.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

As stated above, the 86/71 action with it's twin locking bolts set a much less sever angle than the 94's and 95/336 action it will handle higher pressure for sure.
If you want the very best 86 made from modern steel and almost a dead on copy of the original you should look for the Browning made in Japan by Miroku. They are no longer in production but used one periodically show up on the auction sites.
The newest offering from Winchester (also no longer produced) was made in Japan by Miroku as well. But it does have some add-on liability parts that make it less desirable. The most troublesome being the rebounding hammer. Way too many folks have reported failures to fire.

The next option if you aren't in a hurry is the Chiappa Armi Sport 1886. The Chiappa folks tell me that this gun will be very much like the Browning version. It's supposed to be available sometime next year.


The picture looks good. If they are anything like their 92's the fit and finish should be really great.

They tell they are going to send one my way for a look see.

[Don McDowell]

Well it's nice to see that it's strong enough, but I tried to look it up on Winchesters site, I couldn't find a 1886. Their was a 1885 in .45-90. Do they alternate years?

Looks nice for sure, I just wondering where I could find a modren one so as to not worry about using a piece of history.

Rifleman 336

On Winchester site look at non catalog guns.
Or go to www.galleryofguns.com and do the gun genie search.

[gak]

+1 to what NKJ (Steve Young) said re Chiappa/Armi Sport. Go to Legacy Sports (LSI) website--they show two; the long rifle and the saddle ring carbine (SRC). First replicas I've known of since the Brownings...pretty exciting, especially if they'll let NKJ preview them as he says. Nate, have they listened to you yet on your few gripes on the 92s?

[Buck Elliott]

Part II

The "advantage" of the .475 Turnbull is the lining of Doug's pockets. (Not a bad thing, if you're Doug, and I don't begrudge it...)

The .475 T. is not that different -- performance-wise -- from the .475 JDJ, which has been around for years, chambered by SSK in Contender/Encore barrels.

I run my .45-70 at 1850 fps, with a 405-gr cast bullet, or at 1800 fps with a 440-gr. cast GC bullet, and it does everything I've ever asked of it.

[86er]

Two comments - Legacy Sports let me look at a Chiappa at the SHOT show and then sent me one for review. There was one thing I didn't like about it but I cannot remember what right now. Turnbull's 1886 are all made off of the USRAC/Miroku 1886 (mostly EL's). At one time the base rifle from him without his "touch" was $999.

[NonPCnraRN]

I believe you have a better selection of bullets in 45-70 than the 475 Turnbull. Gary Reeder has been converting Marlin 1895s to his .45-70/475 wildcat for a while now. I can't remember the name of his cartridge but it's on his web site. My Puma in 480 Ruger will match a 475 Linebaugh revolver power wise which ain't bad for a little 6 lb carbine.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Two comments - Legacy Sports let me look at a Chiappa at the SHOT show and then sent me one for review. There was one thing I didn't like about it but I cannot remember what right now. Turnbull's 1886 are all made off of the USRAC/Miroku 1886 (mostly EL's). At one time the base rifle from him without his "touch" was $999.

That was one of the first proto-types. I think the delay with Chiappa getting these done is some of those concerns like you found. Chiappa is definately listening. They tell me they are working on a model close to the Miroku because of the suggestions other folks had voiced.

[86er]

Yes - Steve is on target as usual. They requested that I write up a fairly extensive, descriptive list of nit-picks and then they called me and discussed each on the phone at length. They paid attention and made note, but I had not heard of nor seen the outcome yet. Overall, it was good and I expect will be even better with some design changes.

[Leverluver]

Gee, find out what needs corrected on your new product before you go to market and then make it right the first time. What a novel idea. You listening Chaparral

[Rifleman336]

Thanks for the answers so far, I cheaked "Non-Cataloged Arms" for Winchester and Browning and couldn't find any current production modles. So that would leaved used rifle sales, but knowning which ones where good one and others to avoid.

As far as Chiappa, I've held 7 or 8 examples of their work and even though it has a steep price tag, their a bargin. Their workmanship and finishing is nothing short of top notch.

The reason I wanted to know of any advantage to the .475 Turnbull VS. 45-70 heavy load. For I know as long as the gun is strong enough, it (the .45-70) can take anything on dry land, unless Sperm whales start sprouting legs, then there could be a problem !!!!

I just can't beileve how many calibers there are and how redundent most of them are. Many are a soultions to non-existant problems as Jeff Copper used to say.

Rifleman 336

[Don McDowell]

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... mid=534113

[Pathfinder09]

Here is my USRAC Winchester 1886 in .45-70G. This is a Delux takedown. Great rifle.

[Mike D.]

This is what happens when you get crazy with a Miroku EL 1886. It now has a full magazine, Browning hammer, trigger and springs, original Lyman sights, and all roll marks that an original post-1900 Winchester would have. Eliminating the rebounding hammer and terrible trigger is a must do modification.

I had a PG lower tang and lever on this gun for a while, but hated the crescent butt. As soon as I get around to having a PG shotgun stock made those parts will be returned to the gun.

modified miroku.jpg

[Buck Elliott]

That's kinda what I have in mind to do with my '86 Extra Light...

[Mike D.]

That's kinda what I have in mind to do with my '86 Extra Light...

Buck, Mike Hunter did the marking and made the FM, I did all the other mods myself. Tearing an 1886 down and replacing the parts is easy, especially after about the third time. The required parts ain't cheap, though. The Browning hammer, trigger and springs came from MGW, the PG lower tang was purchased from WGP, in Canada. Winchester won't sell some parts to any others but their "recognized gunsmiths", so I went above the border to get it done.

[Rifleman336]

[quote="Mike D."]This is what happens when you get crazy with a Miroku EL 1886. It now has a full magazine, Browning hammer, trigger and springs, original Lyman sights, and all roll marks that an original post-1900 Winchester would have. Eliminating the rebounding hammer and terrible trigger is a [i]must do[/i] modification.

I had a PG lower tang and lever on this gun for a while, but hated the crescent butt. As soon as I get around to having a PG shotgun stock made those parts will be returned to the gun. [attachment=0]modified miroku.jpg[/attachment][/quote]


[color=#0000BF]I like it!! But now you got me salivating over that photo, I'm going to be tortured in my dreams all night long. Good going. I love that rifle, great job.

Rifleman 336 [/color]

[Buck Elliott]

That's kinda what I have in mind to do with my '86 Extra Light...

Buck, Mike Hunter did the marking and made the FM, I did all the other mods myself. Tearing an 1886 down and replacing the parts is easy, especially after about the third time. The required parts ain't cheap, though. The Browning hammer, trigger and springs came from MGW, the PG lower tang was purchased from WGP, in Canada. Winchester won't sell some parts to any others but their "recognized gunsmiths", so I went above the border to get it done.

I have a couple Browning Magazine tubes, and the springs & hangers to go with them, as well as rifle-style magazine caps. It's just a matter of kick-starting myself to get it done.

Also have Browning hammer springs, &c., but no hammers. That said, I don't mind the 'safety' hammer on the Winchester, as has been noted in other threads, recently.

I'll have to give Mike a shout, I reckon...

[Pathfinder09]

Here is a better shot of my USARC Winchester in .45-70

[Mike D.]

Mike has my Browning SRC at the present time. It will be a .45-90 when it returns to me, sometime in the future. I've already stripped and redone the wood. I do need to install a sling swivel in the forend band, though.

[crow]

Guys very excited about Winchester releasing or re-releasing many new levers in different configurations.

In particular the 1886...Now I would love one in 45/70 but would this action handle the .348 Winchester round if a custom job was considered? Will it handle those 40K pressures or is there a better Marlin option I should be looking at?

I am very serious about making something with this base cartridge...http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/model71.htm

The Model 71 has been used as a basis for caliber conversions over quite a few years now. P.O. Ackley's .348 Improved was made by blowing the case out straight to get rid of the tapered body. Combined with Ackley's sharp shoulder, case life was dramatically improved over the factory cartridge and ballistics were increased. Standard loads in the Improved case gave up to 500 fps increase over the unmodified cartridge with some loads.

Bob Hutton (who was at Guns & Ammo at the time) developed a series of wildcat cartridges based on the Ackley Improved .348. There was a .30 caliber design called the .30-348, the case being necked to .30 caliber. There was also a .35-348 (which proved to be the most efficient of all the conversions), a .40-348, and a .450-348. The .450-348 proved a very powerful cartridge, running a 350 gr. bullet at nearly 2500 fps and 400 gr. bullet at 2300 fps... very close to .458 Winchester Magnum ballistics from a levergun. It was noted for tearing the magazine tube off the rifle during recoil unless a special fixture was attached to hold the magazine in place.

The .450 Alaskan was developed around the same time. The only difference between it and the .450-348 was the latter is the straight-walled Ackley design while the .450 Alaskan has about a .020" body taper. It is noticeably smaller at the shoulder than the Ackley cartridge. The .450 Alaskan has slightly reduced ballistics when compared to the Ackley design, but because of the slight taper the cartridge feeds better in the levergun.

Today the .50 Alaskan is a very popular conversion of the .348 Winchester cartridge. Blown out to a straight case, the big gun hits hard on both ends! Regan Nonneman of Nonneman Custom Rifles is a premier builder of these big bores, as are a few other custom leversmiths around the country.

Or am I asking for trouble? I know that there are fellas in the US that do this work but I can tell you that I would be paying close to 250% of what some from the good old US of A would be forking out...I am not exaggerating.

[Leverluver]

You must be out of cycle with the rest of the world ; even the new Pedersoli M71 will be in 45-70.

The strength of the Miroku made 86s and 71s are the same, so if you wanted to go to the expense, it will handle the pressure. Not saying that you might not have to have the smith tweak things to get a 45-70 tuned action to feed the fatter cartridge, just that it will handle the pressure. Even 71s enlarged to the fatter relatives based on the 348 can have issues with feeding. I rechambered one of my Miroku 71s to 348AI and it feeds OK but it "complains" as it is doing so. Anything you do to fatten the front end of the 348 cartridge will lesson the feeding smoothness, unless more work is done to tune the mechanism.

Good luck.

[firefuzz]

Here's my Miroku '86 TD. It's supposed to be the number 2 gun of a 500 gun limited run, what's limited about it I don't know. It's previous owner installed the sling swivels.



Mine was one of those with miss-fire problems, 27 out of the first 30 rounds I fired had to be snapped the second time. I was just about sick at my stomach. The guys here directed me to this excellent article http://onesticky.levergunscommunity.org ... r_fix.html and the problem was solved. Be advised....an '86 Winchester is NOT the first gun you want to try to disassemble. You need to learn how to hold your mouth just right on some others first. I should have reduced the mainspring a little while I had it apart, but I didn't have a spare so that's a later project.

Another problem I had was the front sight was WAY too tall. With the factory ladder sight it was shooting about a foot low at 100yds with the ladder folded. I installed the Marble's sight in the pic and had to run it almost all the way up to get the gun to shoot center at the same range. I trimmed the front sight by about a third of it's height and have yet to get to sight it in again. I may just replace it with a Browning bead, I like the looks of it better. I have replaced the rear factory sight with a simple fold-down, adjustable sight that I plan to sight in at 50yds.

My load is a .405 cast bullet with 41grs or IMR 3031 more than a max Trapdoor load but 5grs below the min load for an '86. The gun tries real hard to clover leaf 3 shoot groups at 100yds with this load. For fun shooting and white-tail hunting it's plenty stout, especially with that cresent buttplate. If I ever go bar' hunting I'll probably load it up some, I've just never meet a bar' I'm that mad at yet.

I had a '71 Browning in .348 years ago and wish I had it back. If I could have found a Browning '86TD in .45-70 instead of this gun I'd have jumped on it...the bluing on the Browning's is beautiful, my gun has an almost matt finish. But I wouldn't trade my Miroku '86 for another .348, IMHO the .45-70 is more versatile.

As money allows my gunsmith is going to build me some other front ends in calibers that I can just swap out and don't have to change the bolt or other parts to use. I don't imagine that I'll accumulate these in any short period of time due to the money involved.

Rob

[Pete44ru]

[So who if anybody making a replica of Winchester 1886?] -
The ONLY companies actually manufacturing new Model 1886 Winchester pattern rifles are
Chiappa (Italy) - Not in full production yet, as posted above.
Miroku (Japan) - who was the maker of past Browning & USRAC M1886's, and current "Winchester" 1886's.

[By the same token how strong is the design? Can it take the pressures the Marlin 1895, can with the hoped up loads?] -
Both leverguns are classified to be able to take all .45-70 loads except the very highest level loads reserved for boltguns and Ruger #1, etc. There are cartridge OAL limitations, ergo, loading/bullet selection limitations.

[Also what the advantage if any to the .475 Turnbull over the .45-70 higher pressure loads.] -
The .475 Turnbull:
*Delivers more engerny
*Delivers more brag factor
*Delivers $3K extra in Doug's pocket.

.

[Chas.]

If you're asking, as you say, about the Marlin 1895, what's been posted is probably correct. A caveat is the Marlin 1895M, which is made a bit different than the 1895. It may well be as strong as the others. The SAAMI for it is 51,500 MAP.

[crow]

Thanks very much for the extra information posted here fellas.

Yes I have been out of the loop for a long while and have been struggling with time and money getting back into it all, specially with so many changes to what is and isn't available anymore. Also have a two year old and a 2 month old so by time they in bed and get on the net it's nearly my bedtime

Firefuzz some bloody good information there mate thanks. Very relevant to what I want to do down the track and I like the takedown idea as well. I actually love Browning product and have a little Miroku .22 that is as accurate as a .22 has a right to.

Like I said just starting back and my gunsafe has .22 Miroku, 30/30 Win Sioux Com, .375 Win BB XTR. oh and a mint condition Lee Enfield .303 No.1 Mk III. None are Safe Queens.

Now I always meant to have a couple of levers in total but considering that I still want a .45 Colt rifle, .348 rifle and a 45/70 and a IAC repoduction of the Winchester 1887 12g (apparently it is a closer repoduction of the 1901?) I've got a little way to go..

Cheers