OT Rifle scope marketing hype................

[Boreman]

I just received Cabelas Top Rated items catalog. I was looking at the number of rifle scopes offered for sale.It struck me as to the changes that have occured in scopes,it seems in short time.
Do you remember the days when it was a no brainer to scope any rifle.You had your 4 or 6x Weaver or some variation and you went to the range to punch paper and off to the field to hunt,it wasn't that complicated and it worked.
Back to the catalog.In 4 pages there were scopes for every type of shooting/hunting you could think of. There were AR scopes,varmint scopes,muzzleloader scopes,lever action scopes, tactical scopes,military
scopes,rangerfinder scopes, hologaraphic scopes,variable power scopes, target scopes and some were just plain old rifle scopes with no stated purpose(sarcasm added) . Is all of that specialization really necessary in the long run? I guess it may be if you want to sell scopes on the current market. What think you? Maybe I am just old fashioned.

[J Miller]

I've seen the same thing in Midway's adds too. I know virtually nothing about scopes so to me it's very confusing.
I'm a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle and these scopes do not follow that at all.

Joe

[Jason_W]

I'm considering going scopeless altogether. There is something about spending several hundred dollars on a rifle, and then having to spend another $100 or more on a decent to good scope that irks me. I've never had much luck with budget model scopes.

Additionally, I feel like scopes can sometimes be a liability

If I take a tumble down a muddy hillside (which I've done more than once) my scope stands a chance of getting messed up where a peep or irons probably won't

In inclement weather, scopes are a magnet for rain, snow, and condensation. Sure, you can add flip up caps, but that's one more thing that will make noise and has to be fiddled with if a deer steps in front of you.

[iceman]

I only have 3 scoped rifles, a mod 99 in 300sav with a 2.5x7 bushnel 3200 for good weather hunting, a 2.5x on an inline 50 cal again good weather and a 3x9 on a 22 hornet. almost all my other rifles have peep sights for up close and personal or bad weather. I am not yet convinced I need the scopes but I can see the target (game) better with them. To be honest most of if not all my game shot did not need the scope to get the job done.

[Rusty]

A good scope will have a decent light gathering ability that will add 20 minutes or so to both ends of the hunting day... when you need it most.

You will also reach a point in life when iron sights are pretty much useless due to a lack of quality eyesight. You'll still be able to drive to your hunting camp but you won't be able to see anything when you get there.

[J Miller]

Only one of my rifles has a scope on it. That's because the idiots at the factory did not put irons on it. Some day I'll get the irons put on it and on that day the scope may well end up in a box somewhere.

Joe

[J Miller]

A good scope will have a decent light gathering ability that will add 20 minutes or so to both ends of the hunting day... when you need it most.
If an extra 20 minutes here and there make that much difference to your then you're in too much of a hurry or you're just doing something wrong.
You will also reach a point in life when iron sights are pretty much useless due to a lack of quality eyesight. You'll still be able to drive to your hunting camp but you won't be able to see anything when you get there.
Have you ever heard of corrective lenses? Or cataract surgery with lens implants? Bogus argument.

Joe

[Jason_W]

A good scope will have a decent light gathering ability that will add 20 minutes or so to both ends of the hunting day... when you need it most.

You will also reach a point in life when iron sights are pretty much useless due to a lack of quality eyesight. You'll still be able to drive to your hunting camp but you won't be able to see anything when you get there.

Does an aperture rear sight and fiberoptic front help with eyesight issues?

[1894cfan]

Only one of my rifles has a scope on it. That's because the idiots at the factory did not put irons on it. Some day I'll get the irons put on it and on that day the scope may well end up in a box somewhere.

Joe

I hear ya on that one, Joe. I just picked up a used Rem. 700 in .222 Rem Mag that came with just scope rings, though it looks like it was D&T'd for front/rear sights AND what looks like receiver sight, though the stock needs to be notched for the receiver sight! I've got a Leupold M8 6X on it right now 'cause I didn't feel like spending big $$ for ANOTHER scope for it.

Greg

[Hankster]

Does an aperture rear sight and fiberoptic front help with eyesight issues?

It does for me!!! Regular open sights are useless with my sight,the rear sight is so fuzzy it's unshootable that way.. but with a rear peep and good visibility front... no problem at all!! A good peep basically "gets rid of" on of the THREE thing you normally have to focus on to hit...... you look THRU the peep.. now, you only have TWO things, front sight, and the target.... maybe a rough description, but that's how it works for me!

[Markbo]

And here I've been trying to figure out how to mount a small red dot on my 94 and Turnbull comes out with a mount for the Burris Fastfire. Non magnifying, but I am willing to bet having a dot floating out there will make shots easier than lining up black sights at dawn and dusk!

[Jason_W]

Red dots are nice, aiming wise, but I'm not sure about relying on a battery. I have forgotten turn them off in the past

That's my shortcoming, but we all have to know our limits.

[Goat]

I must be doing a lot of things wrong beacause I often shoot deer in the first few minutes of light and the last minutes before dark. Many times these are the only time that deer are active where I hunt. Scopes have also allowed me to pick a hole in the brush to stick a bullet through. I am NOT ashamed to use a scope and do not feel it makes me less of a hunter, or rifle shooter. You are welcome to use your peeps and irons all you want and I applaud you for it. It is to me the choice of the individual. I could just as easily choose to shoot a bow or a muzzleloader but I do not. Where I hunt I need to be able to see very early or very late to have a decent chance to harvest game. And no, I do not have to kill something to have a succesful hunt. I have killed enough to be past that but I do like to eat venison and I do like to kill them. I have guns that I enjoy packing to the woods to hunt with and their scopes are part of the package. I do not feel that they bother the handling of the gun because they have always been there for me.
I like scopes, I choose to shoot and hunt with scopes and I am not ashamed that it allows me to kill game that I could never have got a shot at with irons. Shoot irons if you want to and let others shoot scopes if they want to, it is a personal choice. Rant over with...
Goat

[RKrodle]

I agree with Goat. I have open sighted guns, I have peep sighted guns and I have scope sighted guns. If I'm serious about bring home meat I choose a scoped rifle. As much as I love my Winchesters they can't touch my scoped bolt guns or my scoped BLR for early and late, and I don't get in a hurry! A good scope extends your hunting time during the best times for hunting. I plan to take the best, and most humane, shot I can on an animal, if that requires a scope for me to do it the so be it. If I'm out jump shooting hogs in the middle of the day then I'll bring along one of my Winchesters. If the traditionalists wish then they can go back to using rocks to kill with.

Boreman, sorry for taking this off subject. I do agree with you on the mind boggling selection of scopes now days. It's hard to wade through the hype to find what you need.

[J Miller]

Goat,

Don't take my comments about the extra 20 minutes of light personally. I grew up in the wide open areas of Arizona. I prefer to walk and stalk and if I connect fine, if not fine. If I were to "need" that time I might break out my one scoped rifle. But just don't see the need for it.
Plus I think back to the times when folks didn't have scopes to fall back on and just used the irons on their rifles to the best of their abilities.
Nothing personal meant, just my way of thinking about hunting.

Joe

[Markbo]

A good scope will have a decent light gathering ability that will add 20 minutes or so to both ends of the hunting day... when you need it most.
If an extra 20 minutes here and there make that much difference to your then you're in too much of a hurry or you're just doing something wrong.
You will also reach a point in life when iron sights are pretty much useless due to a lack of quality eyesight. You'll still be able to drive to your hunting camp but you won't be able to see anything when you get there.
Have you ever heard of corrective lenses? Or cataract surgery with lens implants? Bogus argument.

Joe

Not well thought out replies Joe. Game very typically shows itself at the worst light. Any hunter worth his salt should know this. And any time you stand up and start passing out funds for arbitrary and elective surgeries, I'll sure get in line.

[m.wun]

I think the younger crowd like to think they have somthing specialized for their purpose
and for their rig.They market vehicles the same way.There can be two names for truck models
but they are the same truck. I also think alot of folks are not going to break scopes because they basicly just sit in stands.

[J Miller]

A good scope will have a decent light gathering ability that will add 20 minutes or so to both ends of the hunting day... when you need it most.
If an extra 20 minutes here and there make that much difference to your then you're in too much of a hurry or you're just doing something wrong.
You will also reach a point in life when iron sights are pretty much useless due to a lack of quality eyesight. You'll still be able to drive to your hunting camp but you won't be able to see anything when you get there.
Have you ever heard of corrective lenses? Or cataract surgery with lens implants? Bogus argument.

Joe

Not well thought out replies Joe. Game very typically shows itself at the worst light. Any hunter worth his salt should know this. And any time you stand up and start passing out funds for arbitrary and elective surgeries, I'll sure get in line.

Yeah, game does that I guess. But that's why they call it hunting.
I guess I think differently about it than most. I like to hunt, but when I get desperate enough to think I need a crutch like a 3x9 scope just to hunt with for a few more minutes, I'll toss the rifle back in the rack and go to Kroger and buy me a roast.

JMHO

Joe

[86er]

There are more and more special applications these days. Muzzleloading is more popular, airguns are more sophisticated, scout scopes are more popular than ever before, etc. The variety is good to get the right scope for the intended purpose. With the popularity of laser rangefinders, calibrated scopes for specific applications were a logical next step to get the most out of a guns trajectory. I personally don't like a clutter view, preferring a plain reticle or simple, small hash marks. I like the variety and specialization in scopes available. There is a distinct advantage to using a muzzleloader scope on an in-line that is fully capable of 200-250 yd shooting. Shotguns with slugs have a unique recoil and often need more eye relief, so an accomodating scope is great. For a typical trajectory centerfire, like an '06, 7mm Mag, or 308 family, I know the trajectory well enought to my own range theshold to use a standard reticle and hold as necessary.

As far as the light gathering, I have done some extensive tests that were posted here a while back. The worst scope provided 8 more minutes of shooting than the best open or peep sights. The best scopes gave about 12 minutes more. This was done on a deer at 50 yards with no moonlight and the shot had to be safe and precise. Throw in deep woods, overcast skies or shadows and the darkness that affects sights can be much more perplexing. Particularly with black bears and hogs the last minute of legal light is the most likely time for them to appear. Anyone who has put in the time, money and effort to make a hunt on these animals would be carefree or foolish not to capitalize on technological help to make it happen. Anyone who has done something as simple as backyard deer hunting recently will readily realize the benefit of positive target identification and precision shot placement in the first few minutes of daylight and the last few hours of daylight. Our game cameras show the first and last 20 minutes of light to be the travel time for 75% of the game animals. If you can see through a scope you can shoot more accurately and safely earlier and later than the next guy over with iron sights. If a physical problem prevented scope use you'd unfortunately be losing out on a large percentage of hunting opportunities.

The replies are telling. You can tell who is serious about their hunting and who has been in the wood recently and you can tell who is speculating or drawing unproven conclusions.

[Ben_Rumson]

Yeah.. Well... John Wayne didn't need no stinkin' scope!!

[Streetstar]

I have a 3x9 carrying handle on my Guide Gun --- its kind of funny looking on such a short carbine, but i like it in the field.

Maybe not a perfect analogy, but i use a scope when i'm hunting for similar reasons i use a big diesel zero turn on my acreage instead of a pull behind finish mower hooked to the tractor --- the extra 2-3 hours a week it saves me means extra opportunity -- opportunities to go shooting, fishing, cycling or anything else i want to do.

On the flip side -- the scope gives me extra opportunities as well -- when it comes to low light, or extra distance . The last few times i have hunted have been stand hunts --- if an animal comes within 250 yards, its fair game --- conventional open sights for me have a practical limit of 150 yards. Animals don't play by the rules, so i will use a few modern conveniences like scopes and range finders to help ensure i take a clean, ethical shot.

The aforementioned 3x9 is as simple as it gets for a variable, but my .22 target rifle wears a 15x scope with adjustable parallax that gets a little trickier to deal with --- i would never use it for hunting as you need to know the approximate range you are shooting when you dial it in -- and as said - animals dont play by the rules, while i am looking across the horizon, one can non-chalantly cross a field 30 yards in front of me.

The only time i have broken a scope was when it was mounted on an airgun, so i understand why they need specialty heavy duty optics, but on the flip side, i have broken the factory rear sight on a Model 94 winchester twice, and the sheetmetal blades are not that hard to bend out of adjustment under the wrong circumstances.

[Jason_W]

There are more and more special applications these days. Muzzleloading is more popular, airguns are more sophisticated, scout scopes are more popular than ever before, etc. The variety is good to get the right scope for the intended purpose. With the popularity of laser rangefinders, calibrated scopes for specific applications were a logical next step to get the most out of a guns trajectory. I personally don't like a clutter view, preferring a plain reticle or simple, small hash marks. I like the variety and specialization in scopes available. There is a distinct advantage to using a muzzleloader scope on an in-line that is fully capable of 200-250 yd shooting. Shotguns with slugs have a unique recoil and often need more eye relief, so an accomodating scope is great. For a typical trajectory centerfire, like an '06, 7mm Mag, or 308 family, I know the trajectory well enought to my own range theshold to use a standard reticle and hold as necessary.

As far as the light gathering, I have done some extensive tests that were posted here a while back. The worst scope provided 8 more minutes of shooting than the best open or peep sights. The best scopes gave about 12 minutes more. This was done on a deer at 50 yards with no moonlight and the shot had to be safe and precise. Throw in deep woods, overcast skies or shadows and the darkness that affects sights can be much more perplexing. Particularly with black bears and hogs the last minute of legal light is the most likely time for them to appear. Anyone who has put in the time, money and effort to make a hunt on these animals would be carefree or foolish not to capitalize on technological help to make it happen. Anyone who has done something as simple as backyard deer hunting recently will readily realize the benefit of positive target identification and precision shot placement in the first few minutes of daylight and the last few hours of daylight. Our game cameras show the first and last 20 minutes of light to be the travel time for 75% of the game animals. If you can see through a scope you can shoot more accurately and safely earlier and later than the next guy over with iron sights. If a physical problem prevented scope use you'd unfortunately be losing out on a large percentage of hunting opportunities.

The replies are telling. You can tell who is serious about their hunting and who has been in the wood recently and you can tell who is speculating or drawing unproven conclusions.

Wouldn't a good pair of binoculars work as somewhat of a substitute to a scope? Use the binoculars to get a detailed view of the the animal and use a peep to make the shot on what I'm assuming would look like a deer shaped object to the naked eye.

Admittedly, my experience is limited to the conditions I run into hunting in northern new england. During our deer seasons, there is almost always something falling from the sky to collect on lenses, and unless you're hunting over a corn field or pasture, shots will probably be less than 50 yards. I heard an unverified statistic that the average shot made on big game in Vermont was around 35 yards.

Of course, my tune could change if I can ever afford a quality scope.

[RKrodle]

And here I've been trying to figure out how to mount a small red dot on my 94 and Turnbull comes out with a mount for the Burris Fastfire. Non magnifying, but I am willing to bet having a dot floating out there will make shots easier than lining up black sights at dawn and dusk!

Markbo, I haven't used that style of red dot but have used others on a Marlin 1895 CB. It was my first experience with them and once I learned to keep both eyes open it was like a whole new world. The only thing I didn't like about the one I had was I bought it to use for hunting hogs at night and it didn't work well for that. Once it started getting dark the red dot seemed to get bigger and bigger, a lot of glare. This was a few years back and it was like a $60.00 red dot. May not be the same now.

[Goat]

I will continue to proudly use my "crutch" as long as it is legal to do so. Again I state that it is your choice if you desire to hunt with iron sights for the extra challenge as does one who chooses to hunt game with a bow or a muzzleloader. My scope is my choice to take game at the only time they are moving. I could go out into the pine sappling thickets that abound on our lease and see just past the end of my nose and run the deer out of my area or continue to hunt the edges of the thickets and the narrow creek bottoms where I typically shoot deer in very early mornings or very late in the evenings. There are NO wide open spaces where I hunt. I would LOVE to do spot and stalk hunts but this terrain will not allow it. There is a lot of hunting pressure and a couple weeks into our nearly three month season leaves you with deer that have learned the habits of man and will not move in good day light. I have hunted areas in the past that were open enough for real still hunting and killed many deer standing on my own two feet. Most unfortunately I cannot do that where I hunt now. So, I hunt the edge of impenetrable pine sappling and briar thickets and thick woods along creek bottoms. I do not know the conditions where others hunt but I know mine and I know MY limitations. When I venture into some of these thick spots it is not that I want magnification it is that I want to be able to see a rack and pick a hole in the brush to place my round where it counts. If killing game on their terms, where they are at the times they move with a scope means that I need a "crutch" then so be it, I am a cripple. Game may "play fair" and be out in the open when you can see those irons and give the time and the opportunity to make a clean kill and if so I am truly glad for you. However, you would seldom harvest game in the woods I hunt. If you would still hunt with irons under my conditions that is your choice and my hat is off to you. I want you to use whatever is legal and ethical for you to use. Please allow the rest of us the freedom to do the same. Rant over again and I have to go sight in some more rifles with crutches.
Goat

[O.S.O.K.]

I will never complain (or try to remember not to) about having too many choices of a thing.

It's a sign that things are working -that sales of scopes are good and that there's plenty of competition, which indicates that prices are their lowest possible level - delivering us, the consuming target market the most bang for the buck.

God bless America

[Old Ironsights]

Up until I got Lasik, I couldn't use optics at all. Now I'm not so sure, but I simply don't know HOW to buy/use one - and they are so bloody expensive I'm afraid to buy the wrong one for my 99. Plus I'd have to remove my reciever peep and put on a "regular" barrel mounted rear sight and new lower front sight (won't go without Irons...)

I guess I'm just too set in my ways/cheap...

Edit: What I HAVE wondered is if there is a way I can use my front scope mounting holes and my rear barrel dovetail to attach a piccatinny rail that won't interfere with my reciever sight. Then all I would need is a good quick-detatch piccatiny scout scope that would be appropriate for .308 ranges on medium game...

[J Miller]

Up until I got Lasik, I couldn't use optics at all. Now I'm not so sure, but I simply don't know HOW to buy/use one - and they are so bloody expensive I'm afraid to buy the wrong one for my 99. Plus I'd have to remove my reciever peep and put on a "regular" barrel mounted rear sight and new lower front sight (won't go without Irons...)

I guess I'm just too set in my ways/cheap...

OI,
What you just said is what a lot of scope fanatics do not understand or refuse to accept. I'm in the same boat as you in all counts except the vision. But as you've read in this and other threads, my choices and opinions mean I'm not serious or experienced and am speculating or drawing unproven conclusions. Yet they get all antagonistic when we state our beliefs and opinions. Go figure.

Joe

[RKrodle]

A good scope will have a decent light gathering ability that will add 20 minutes or so to both ends of the hunting day... when you need it most.
If an extra 20 minutes here and there make that much difference to your then you're in too much of a hurry or you're just doing something wrong.
You will also reach a point in life when iron sights are pretty much useless due to a lack of quality eyesight. You'll still be able to drive to your hunting camp but you won't be able to see anything when you get there.
Have you ever heard of corrective lenses? Or cataract surgery with lens implants? Bogus argument.

Joe

First you tell Rusty that he must not know what he's doing, then you call his failing eye sight a bogus argument. Sir, I believe you are the antagonist.

[Old Savage]

I like scopes and I have them as simple as possible with a couple of variables in the lot - 1.5-5x, 1.75-6x and 2.5-8x and they all have good applications. A 4X is certainly adequate to 300 yds but I wouldn't argue that more is not useful under some circumstances.

[Goat]

Boreman, I appoligize for my two rants on your thread. I did not mean to be an antagonist but wanted to share my opinion also. It is not worth the ink it would take to print it but it is mine. I am somewhat confused by the enormous amount of scopes available. I will likely continue to by regular scopes that do not have all the extra bells and whistles. I do like the choices and do have one "shotgun" scope with heavy duplex crosshairs. It is only different in the fact that it has the paralax set at 75 instead of one hundred yards. But I don't have it on a shotgun, instead it sets on my Marlin336T re-bored to 38/55. Choices are great.
Goat

[Ben_Rumson]

I love shooting with irons..You name it...Silliwets Cans, rocks, paper targets...Long range plinking...Why I even shot me a Couse buck (frontal quartering) on a late sunny afternoon here in California using irons... from prone on the hill crest... with a receiver sighted bolt rifle in 270 Win...he was about a 150 yards away down a steep hill... It was a neck shot too....One shot... he dropped in a dead heap and slid the rest of the way down the hill nearly to our truck.. I swear!....However when I took the shot I was nearly out of breath and had actually aimed for his chest...But I had thought the sight looked pretty steady...I didn’t expect I missed my mark by so much...I just got lucky and made meat is all.. Next season I had me a K Mart Swift 4X on it...All I could afford at the time.. Scopes are such superior sighting systems over Irons....and you CAN see your heart a thumping when you’re using a scope!...
Here’s my too scents worth.. Remember with a scope you just place the cross hairs on your spot... nothing to lign up.. easy deal...If you buy a scope ..pick a fixed 4X one in the mid price range...Happy medium all the way round... That’s pretty much a safe bet...That technology is tried & tru.. That old Swift is a study scarred up old scope now.. been on not few different rifles... Even bounced around in a Baja Bug out in the night spotting Jacks in the desert....I’ve got nicer now but I’d slap it on something if need be...Maybe I’d even prefer it for something rough & tumble or as a loner..

[Bigahh]

I simply Love BOTH!, and do not think I could get by without either. I just have to have Rifles set up both ways! I even have a recently purchased Marlin 336 I would love to set up with a Quick Detach mount to use a Peep, and then re-attach the Scope. It would be the best of both worlds!!

[Old Ironsights]

I simply Love BOTH!, and do not think I could get by without either. I just have to have Rifles set up both ways! I even have a recently purchased Marlin 336 I would love to set up with a Quick Detach mount to use a Peep, and then re-attach the Scope. It would be the best of both worlds!!

Yeah. I can see how some of those "Tacticool" illuminated reticle/Holo-Dot Scout Scopes would be the bees knees in certain circumstances.

I'm really going to have to look into getting a dovetail mounted screw platform to screw a piccatinny into machined to match my front scope screw holes...

[KCSO]

After shootig the same M70 270 rifle from 1948 to 1993 my father in law finally put a scope on the rifle, then took it off because he couldn't hit running coyotes as well with the scope. He kept his eye sight pretty good till he was 93 or so and at that age he could still hit a running deer at over 100 yards. My problem is as I got older I need more light to see the sights well so lately I have been using a scope for dusk shooting, but i still use my old K3 Weaver post and it still works. All the rest of my guns are irons and I can still get by pretty well with the peeps on my Krag's or my leverguns.

[El Chivo]

Wouldn't a good pair of binoculars work as somewhat of a substitute to a scope? Use the binoculars to get a detailed view of the the animal and use a peep to make the shot on what I'm assuming would look like a deer shaped object to the naked eye.

You may have noticed at the range what happens when looking through a small aperture at a brown-on-brown target, it tends to disappear if you're not in full sun. High contrast targets such as silhouettes and bullseyes are no problem, but those aren't hunting situations. Binoculars are useful, but you can't aim with them. If your target disappears when you look through the aperture, then what?

Using a peep sight, I have managed to shoot a buck. I have also missed a coyote with a scope, but he was running, and I must say I got the scope on target much faster than with irons. I don't like carrying it or cleaning it, but they work.

I finally got past worrying about whether I must use a certain type of scope for a certain gun, I have realized that it's just a pointing device and whatever I want to point or point at is my choice. So I use the low power scope and carry it at 1x. That way it doesn't change my field too much, it's the lightest one out there, and there's nothing faster on target if I need that.

Getting older, I'll soon be going the way of scopes exclusively, it only makes sense. I love my tang sights, but with blurry front sights at dawn and dusk, I need to take advantage of technology. Until then, they're great for silhouette shooting or non-critical hiking situations.

I used to use peeps at the indoor range, and couldn't see anything. Now I have a scope on the gun and I get good practice in.

Hey, hint for cleaning your scope, I use a can of compressed air to blow out any grit before trying to wipe anything. I also like Q-tips or cotton balls better than lens cloths. I didn't do this last time, but Saran Wrap over your scope should keep it clean and viewable.

[AJMD429]

I simply Love BOTH!, and do not think I could get by without either. I just have to have Rifles set up both ways! I even have a recently purchased Marlin 336 I would love to set up with a Quick Detach mount to use a Peep, and then re-attach the Scope. It would be the best of both worlds!!

Same here.

If Williams would make their FP with a machined-in scope base and sell a matching front one, with really nice Q.D. rings, I'd snap one up in a minute!

[rjohns94]

I will chime in with my 2 pennies: I have a scope on three main firearms. My recently purchased .22 mag, my WWG co-pilot .457 with a scout set up, and my .308 bolt rifle. The reason is for precise shot placement at either long range, or low light. The .22mag pushes my distance out and I want precise shots on smaller game to take that game ethically and quickly. I used the .457 on a Nelgi in texas. I was told they were difficult to put down and I spent hours studying diagrams of internal organ and bone structure on the internet in order to know exact shot placement if I had an opportunity. When that opportunity came, it was in fading light and the scope allowed me to make the exact shot placement I wanted, with the results of a dropped in tracks trophy. The third is my stand off, weapon and it carries a Leupold Mk 4 10x tactical mil dot scope, with ballistic compensation. I know how to use the scope, and given the right conditions, will engage targets out to 1000 yards. IF I need to use it, I want to hit what I am aiming at. I also have an M1A in same caliber, same bullet with open sights and the ability to put a scout scope on (haven't done that) that will shoot to the same distance. The point of the scopes is the same, life or death, either to the game animal, or possibly to myself or those I'm protecting.

[Jason_W]

You may have noticed at the range what happens when looking through a small aperture at a brown-on-brown target, it tends to disappear if you're not in full sun. High contrast targets such as silhouettes and bullseyes are no problem, but those aren't hunting situations. Binoculars are useful, but you can't aim with them. If your target disappears when you look through the aperture, then what?

I certainly see the advantages, and I'm by no means against scopes. I've just found them aggravating in the past. When I start rebuilding my gun collection, there are a few I want that will require a scope. Part of my aversion is the extra cost required for a good one. Can a quality scope be bought for less than $100?

[DixieBoy]

... and John Wayne would love all of the choices we've got today in optics for shooting.

I'm with sixgun. I think alot of the complaining about our incredible choices today in optics (and so much more shooting related stuff) comes from people in training for their future life as curmudgeons.

For Pete's sake, folks have a lot of CHOICES now. Oh geez ....

RKrodle said it best, we could always just go back to throwing rocks. But then some curmudgeon would complain that he missed the days when we only used sharpened sticks. - DixieBoy

[86er]

Let's say you are finally on the hunt you wished for. You saved pennies by taking lunch to work, skipping coffee at Starbucks, etc. You were told the shots could be from 100-300 yards typically. It is the last day and it is getting late. Your flight leaves tomorrow (or you have to drive tomorrow to be at work Monday, whatever). Here is the animal you've been looking for. He's headed towards dark woods and needs to get in the clear for you to have a shot. He's somewhere around 200 yds. About 15 seconds are left before he makes it to the woods and walks out of your life. Who wants to just pass on this opportunity? Who wants a scope on their rifle? The most common answers are going to be NOT ME and ME, ME, ME. The more useful the scope is, or in other words, the better match it is for your rifle the bigger it's advantage becomes under tough situations. Here's where the great choices and modern advancements in scopes seperate them from plain ol' fixed power straight reticle styles of the past. The quality, features and designs today are leap and bounds beyond old technology. Now the old technology works, and in my scenario I'd glady take a scope of yesteryears over iron sights. If you are 100% at peace with passing the shot or if you still wouldn't take the scope if you could hit rewind then: money is no object; you are confident of another opportunity another day soon; your tolerance standards are well above average. I you are going home empty handed because you will not use a scope I envy you. Me, I won't kick myself for coming home empty handed if I was well prepared for whatever was given to me and the cards were not in my favor but I would regret not being as prepared as possible. Especially with a gun with tricky trajectory like a muzzleloader or shotgun slug the calibrated scope not only provides light, aiming reference and visibility but confidence and information on how to aim. I love scopes and the latest technology. I also have a soft spot for shooting iron sights, particularly on classic rifles and front stuffers. I use both when they are suited for the situation.

[RKrodle]

You may have noticed at the range what happens when looking through a small aperture at a brown-on-brown target, it tends to disappear if you're not in full sun. High contrast targets such as silhouettes and bullseyes are no problem, but those aren't hunting situations. Binoculars are useful, but you can't aim with them. If your target disappears when you look through the aperture, then what?

I certainly see the advantages, and I'm by no means against scopes. I've just found them aggravating in the past. When I start rebuilding my gun collection, there are a few I want that will require a scope. Part of my aversion is the extra cost required for a good one. Can a quality scope be bought for less than $100?

Jason,
I'm not as fast with a regular scope to get on target if it is very close. I have a tendency to loose what I'm looking at for a brief second if it is to close. What works best for me in your situation is a scout scope set up, although you don't have as much light transmission with the scout setup because your eye is further from the scope or a good low power scope. As for as $$$ for a good scope, I think the best deal going right now are the Redfield scopes that are being made by Leupold. I think they list for around $140.00 but you may be able to find them cheaper. There are a lot of scopes out there, and trying to figure out what is the best bang for the buck is confusing to say the least. I don't know the answer so I have a tendency to stay with what has a good reputation and that is Leupold. Lifetime guaranty and good customer service. A good scope if a lifetime thing the way I look at it. Rifles may come and go but I keep my scopes for the next rifle, then I don't have recurring cost. When I pick out a scope probably the most important thing for me is eye relief. Good Eye relief, along with rings and bases to set the scope to the right height for the way you mount the rifle, is important to how quick you get the scope on target.

[Markbo]

And here I've been trying to figure out how to mount a small red dot on my 94 and Turnbull comes out with a mount for the Burris Fastfire. Non magnifying, but I am willing to bet having a dot floating out there will make shots easier than lining up black sights at dawn and dusk!

Markbo, I haven't used that style of red dot but have used others on a Marlin 1895 CB. It was my first experience with them and once I learned to keep both eyes open it was like a whole new world. The only thing I didn't like about the one I had was I bought it to use for hunting hogs at night and it didn't work well for that. Once it started getting dark the red dot seemed to get bigger and bigger, a lot of glare. This was a few years back and it was like a $60.00 red dot. May not be the same now.

Just like scopes, a few $$ more often means the difference between a mediocre sight and a very good one. I have several red dots, including a couple $40 ones and a couple of "you spent HOW MUCH?" ones. The $40 are relegated to paper or daylight only field work. The others - including the very small L/T Ultra Dot can regulate the brightness easily and quickly and personally I like a very small dot. 4MOA to me is useless.

In the last 5 years or so my eyesight has begun to change and not for the better. Would lasik help? A bit - for a while. Would lens implants help? Maybe, I don't know. I have not discussed the option with my Opthamologist. I know one thing for sure though. I can't afford either choice right now and so long as I have options in optics I am going to use them.

Good on you guys that will only shoot open sights. I simply cannot do it all the time, in every situation any more. That ended when I turned about 45. And to my way of thinking any game animal (or varmint for that matter) deserves a killing shot and not a guesstimate. If I can see it, I can shoot it. If I can't I won't.

[stretch]

Scopes these days are like tires or motor oil. They've improved
SO MUCH in the last decade or two or three that the majority of 'em
are more than adequate for the vast majority of people.

Yes, there is some nasty imported glass (plastic?!) out there, but it's
priced pretty low most of the time, and therefore obvious. The
Swarovski stuff and suchlike is really beautifully made, but it's way
beyond my budget. No arguing with their optics or quality, but it's
not really NEEDED.

A good quality 4 x 32 is all most hunters will ever really need. There are,
as noted above, some preferences for eye relief, and there are some
specialized uses for benchrest, air rifle, and the like.

Lots of choices out there -too many for me!

-Stretch