Win 1886 vs. Marlin 1895

[hfcable]

I have never owned a 1895 Marlin, new or old, but do own a number of 1886s. I would like very much to find a real Marlin 1895 in .40-82.

years ago, i saw an obscure ad in shotgun news, and called. it was a combination general store and pharmacy in michigan with three original 1895s for sale ...... i took the one in best condition, caliber was 40/65 price was $275.00
the others was 250 and 225 and he would have made me a deal for all three for probably 600-650! dang i wish i had done that. i rebored that one to 45/70 and then sold it a bit later for 475.00 whooeee, a real trader i was!

a few years ago found an ad from a fellow with a reblued original 1895 in 45/70. made before 1899 and bought it form 450.00 and it is a nice gun, so at least i have one to shoot and admire.

if we had just bought and held onto some of the bargains we saw, we would have even better collections of course, and they would have been much better than most any other investments we could have made.....well unless you bought apple or microsoft etc. i didnt ; (

still i have some wonderful old guns and i am keeping my favorites of those from now on out !

[KWK]

hfcable, that's one of the best looking modern '86s I've seen. I do like the appearance of a half magazine on a lever action rifle.

[hfcable]

hfcable, that's one of the best looking modern '86s I've seen. I do like the appearance of a half magazine on a lever action rifle.

thank you. it makes for a well balanced, fast pointing rifle, and the old timers claimed the short magazine guns were more accurate, in general. you see a lot of deluxe original 86s and 94s and even 92s in that sort of configuration.

[Griff]

Considering to get me a .45-70 levergun, there is the choice between the Marlin 1895 and the Winchester 1886. The latter is also available in Browning and Pedersoli copies. Surely I would prefer an original 1886, but on this side of the pool they are as common as white ravens. However, there are the copies and the new Japchester versions - which cost about 50% more than the Marlin, and must be specially ordered. Are they worth that money and that waiting, or is the Marlin good enough? (1895 Classic)
Grateful for your opinions on this
Old Sh
(I have posted the same question in another forum, but I would really appreciate your advice too.

Marlin is "good enough"... If you want the weaker Lever of the two that shoots fine and is a lot cheaper, then get the Marlin!
Consider with that Marlin and its inability to handle very stout loads and loaded up with the 400gr brass punch bullets you can litter the earth with it's parts if you really have the desire. (Just kinda of an extra neat factor cool thing, eh)?
Strength wise comparing the two the Solid Top Marlin losess hands down! At least my understanding of it!
Kinda like comparing a S&W 629 to the Ruger Redhawk? That would be the Marlin vs the 1886, respectfully!
Either one is a gun! Good luck if you get the Marlin!

There, fixed that relative comparison up for ya.

I think that if you just look at the various chamberings each rifle has been offered in, you'll note the Marlin has a definite lack of chamberings in any of the more powerful cartridges of the period (1895).

Yes, you can overload and blow up either gun... but the only '86s I've seen that were inadvertently expanded were originals that were probably suffering from metal fatique with their softer, old metallurgy. I wouldn't load a Marlin 336 action (all the new 1895 really is with a bigger ejection port), with anything more than a factory .45-70 load. Certainly, nothing "stout"!

[madman4570]

Griff
Dude, by stout I mean a 400grain bullet zipping at 2000-2150fps(various loadings)
That is indeed stout(at least to me)considering the .404 Jeffery African Load Std was 400gr@2100fps)
No disrespect with the 86's (I would love one) but are you saying they are as strong as the Marlin?
Also we have to take in consideration all years of the 45-70 86's as he stated he would prefer an original just as we would with the Marlin.(So lets say from the inception of both of those models till ?)

http://www.gunblast.com/Marlin-1895SBL.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm
Isnt the max (Legal) acceptable psi limit on the Marlin 1895 43,000 psi and the Win 1886 is 28,000 psi ?
Hey, I could be wrong! If so then that's somthing I learned today. I am not saying that I always would shoot the gun at max limit,but IF I did want to use this rifle at close to this limit for say a Cape Buffalo then thats cool.

What would Paco say is better for STOUT STUFF!

[86er]

When I was looking at a 45-70, mostly for bear work I had the time and money to buy pretty much whatever I wanted. So, I did just that. I had a Marlin Guide Gun, a Marlin Cowboy and 1886EL (High Grade) and an 1886 rifle (26" oct bbl.). Several factors influenced my decisions. First, I found that I preferred a straight stock over the pistol grip because it just worked better for me. The Marlin w/ straight stock had more upward recoil than the Wins. Next, I wanted a gun to balance like a good shotgun. After shooting all of the guns a lot I sold the Marlin Cowboy and 86 rifle deeming them too heavy and not well balanced for me. Next I began to shoot the Guide Gun and 86EL extensively, with different ammo from light loads to 405's @ 2000 fps, 450's @ 1750 fps, etc. Out of these two particular guns, The velocity was as expected from either the published load or the manufacturers specs from the 86 but somewhat less with the Guide Gun. This is to be expected since we're dealing with an 18" bbl v. 22" bbl. Next, it became obvious that I was going to need to balance both guns better and at the same time add a good butt pad. I put a Kick Eez pad on both guns and at the same time did a few tricks to get them to balance between the hands. Next I changed sights - actually several times - to get a system that could be pointed quickly and come into focus rapidly. Then I tried both rifles with scopes. The 86EL wears a custom base that I put on for a scout scope. The Guide Gun was tried with a scout scope and a conventionally mounted scope. The Guide Gun was more tempermental about shot stringing as rounds were fired repeatedly. During slow fire both guns were equally accurate. The Marlin was tough to get to balance just right but it was eventually accomplished. I removed the rebounding hammer from the 86 due to some light stikes and it never happened again. It came to a point where I couldn't decide and it was just about a toss up. Then the day came. The Marlin failed to eject a spent cartridge. I couldn't fish it out without getting a tool. Out of curiosity, I tried to cause a failure to extract from the 86. In one instance I trimmed the rim of an empty to it barely caught. If the 86 failed to pull the brass out I could wrap the gun on the butt and it would fall out or at least back out enough to grab it with a fingernail. If an empty stayed in the action a quick turn of the gun upside down, or a sweep with a finger would clear the empty. Later inspection of the Marlin showed a bent or wore the extractor. This was probably my own fault from taking it out during cleaning (a necessity when removing the lever). I have heard that a one-piece extractor from WWG or other company would elimintate the issue but I didn't try one. The Guide Gun was a heck of a lot easier to clean by taking the lever out. Later on I had one more issue with the Marlin, the mag tube follower was sticking and not pushing the round out for loading. The plastic follower was gunked up and possible degraded. Again, user fault to some extent. Solvent may have degraded it and dirt and sludge may have cause the sticking. A new aluminum or stainless one would solve that problem too but at that point I had made up my mind. I kept the 86EL. I have fired over 1000 rounds through it with no hiccups. Half of those rounds have been full power (know as level 3 in some circles) loads. I have provided back-up on bears, hunted and taken dangerous game and backed up clients on a number of animals. It went to Africa and took a plethora of plains game out to 200 yds and some tough critters like zebra and eland. The rifle, cartridge (with the loads I use) and combination have not failed me and have not left me wanting for more or something different in 5 years of serious hunting and professional hunting and guiding in N.A. and RSA. I think I could have got the Marlin perfected with some more tinkering. The new GBL is very much like I would want it sans pistol grip. The 86EL at the time cost me $1000. The sights and scope mount ran another $180 plus the recoil pad. The action and trigger work I did myself. The Marlin would have cost me nearly the same overall to get it like I'd want it, and that is starting with a $500 gun plus accessories and components. That's my story of the why and how I ended up with and use an 86 over the Marlin. Most folks are much more casual users of their firearms than I am. Keeping that in mind, I think the Marlin would serve well for most people if it feels and fits right to you. Good luck on your decision!

[madman4570]

Joe, Good stuff
I see you opted for the newer 1886 EL (nice)where do you draw the line on old stuff?
I mean how about a 100 year old gun/50 year old gun/20 year old gun/or only newer based on those two models?
I am speaking on strength/toughness(for shooting the tier 3 loads)For those is there a certain cut off year say you wouldnt go past(older wise) on a 1886? Or a 1895 ?
Personally if I cant shoot tier 3 loads "for me" I really wouldnt use it as much (thats just me though? )

[86er]

For the amount of use, heavy loads and modifications I really needed to start with a new rifle. I have used 100 yr old rifles and others decades old with no problem, but I wouldn't feed them the heavy loads continuously out of precaution. Also, I'd be less inclined to modify them (like four holes in the barrel for a scope mount). Lastly, unless the gun is new you cannot determine the total accuracy potential. Any wear, bore or rifling related things, even mainspring tension could effect accuracy, so you only know what you have now not what the 100% potential was. It could be more than sufficient right now, but I didnt want to start with a rifle that might be less than expected and have to move it and start with another. New was the only way to go for my intended purposes. For personal hunting with regular loads I would personally appreciate a vintage gun unmodified more than a new tool.

[madman4570]

Hey, I could be wrong! If so then that's somthing I learned today.

Yep, I learned somthing today!

[.45colt]

If You are going to hunt and shoot with factory equivalant ammo get the Marlin. I have a 1895 and like it alot. one thing for sure,when You want to clean it or put a scope on it You can't help but Smile. .

[RDB]

Not sure it got mentioned but the acknowledged working pressure for a "modern" '86 is 42K CUP. Turnbull's Proof loads are 50K.

"The weak link in the 86 is so many of the old non-nickel steel guns and the Marlin is the thin web in the barrel and the magazine channel. The Marlin is thought to be a stronger gun but they are made of modern steel in the barrel as the Win 86 had most of the older guns made of the non-nickle steel barrels. The Marlin threads are smaller than the Winchester. It is the barrel issue not the action issue.

The best '86s ever made for steel and strength are the Brownings and the newest Winchesters. Thank goodness you cna get rid of the tang safety and rebounding hammer! When it comes to hot loads the Winchester was designed to take a OAL cartridge length of 2.80" the Marlin 2.550". No way to make up the space lost in the Marlin.

Beautiful custom '86 short mag tube lever previously. Big fan of them myself

[Mike D.]

The accepted working pressure for the old nickel steel 1886 is the same 40+K PSI as the new Miroku guns. As stated in previous posts the nickel steel barrels were rated by Winchester at 100K PSI. That's the barrel only, not the rifle itself.

[Old Savage]

We saw one of the old 86s here blown up, I don't think we have seen a new one let go. There have been a couple of Marlins we have seen open up but not that I I recall with normal use or the more powerful factory loads like Garrett. I think they are a both sufficiently strong. Some have a strong preference for one or the other but I think it is just that - personal preference.

[Griff]

Some have a strong preference for one or the other but I think it is just that - personal preference.

Maybe so. But when I compare them side by side... My Browning 1886 inspires my confidence, the Marlin seems puny. That's comparing octagon barreled models in both guns.

[Old Savage]

Griff my friend, you are entirely welcome to have your own preference but I think your post demonstrates my point. My Marlin generates much the same feeling for me. I have used both and well, the Browning and Winchesters are just to shiny all over for my taste and I don't like the way they handle as much as my Marlin. Now, I like scopes, and I shot my first scope sighted rifle at age 44, I like seeing the target through them. I also like the rubber butt pad and don't like the steel butt plates that tend to slip and you just don't want to scratch that pretty things up. I don't like the finish on the 86s or for that matter on my BLR or my newly purchased NIB B92 44 mag. But - that is all personal preference - what the one will do the other will do - except for the scope part.

[Blaine]

If I spent a lot of money on my USRAC 1886EL, I would have a rifle that I like as much as I like my 1895 Guide Gun with a Leupold Scout Scope setup

[madman4570]

When it comes to hot loads the Winchester was designed to take a OAL cartridge length of 2.80" the Marlin 2.550". No way to make up the space lost in the Marlin.

RDB,


Even though the action will accept it, because the lands in the Winchester barrels start immediately in front of the chamber dont it prevent seating the bullet further out, unless a gunsmith reworks the throat( leade) so that its extended in length? Guess it could be done,but its sure not of Manf. design?

[Griff]

AARRGh! That Browning finish!!! But like my 1st 4WD p/u, a beautiful '74 Chevy half-ton. Bright Corvette yellow, shiney as the sun it so closely resembled. Picked it up on a Wednesday and spent Saturday in the hills of the Irvine Ranch knockin' the shine off! Even bagged a coupla coy-dogs! By the end of the day it was scratched up some, new was pretty much gone.

With the Browning a little 4-0 steelwool and bye-bye shine!

When it comes to hot loads the Winchester was designed to take a OAL cartridge length of 2.80" the Marlin 2.550". No way to make up the space lost in the Marlin.

RDB,
Even though the action will accept it, because the lands in the Winchester barrels start immediately in front of the chamber dont it prevent seating the bullet further out, unless a gunsmith reworks the throat( leade) so that its extended in length? Guess it could be done,but its sure not of Manf. design?

I think he was referring to the '86 being factory chambered in up to 50-110.

[Mike D.]

The longest case that the original '86 Winchester was designed for was 2.4". That included the .40-82 WCF, 45-90 WCF, and the several .50 caliber cartridge designations.

[gimdandy]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you guys crack me up
Why is it that
If a few of us were to sit down fer coffee we'd not lack for length of conversation
If I owned another 1886 I'd have to ---------------aw never mind I wouldn't own another 1886
Nope you wouldn't change my mind any more than I'd change yours , but I'll politely listen

[Old Savage]

Problem is Griff, if things are nice I like to keep them that way. Someone said the bed of my seven year old of pick up looks new even though I have moved a decent amount of stuff in it. Rugers now and Marlins and Winchesters or even my Dakota aren't so vulnerable.

[Old Ironsights]

I've had both.

I liked my Full Octagon, Matte Blue, 86 TD... BUT

(A) I still had to put a bunch-o-money into it to get rid of that ^%#$%^@#$%@#% FTF rebounding abortion of a hammer and
(B) it was heavy, heavy heavy.

I liked my Stainless 1895 too. Never cared if it was sexy or particularly "smooth" or anything else. It was a working gun. Which, to me is the most important thing.

Now, maybe if Brownchester would come out with a Matte Stainless 1886 Extra Light, I would reconsider getting an 86 as a working gun. But until I get a heck of a lot richer, I just can't get into collecting purty guns.

[Old Shatterhand]

Thanks for all inputs! The thread is a joy to read and you have been very generous with advice and experience.

But I must confess that I am still ambiguous about the choice, as my heart says Win 1886, but my wallet and my common sense say Marlin. However, having searched the net and phoned to gun shops, I think the shops have chosen for me: there are only Marlins available here.

Old Sh.

P.S. A shop has a Ruger #1 in .45-70, but it has neither lever nor hammer. I prefer to cock a hammer than to push a safety slide.

[madman4570]

Thanks for all inputs! The thread is a joy to read and you have been very generous with advice and experience.

But I must confess that I am still ambiguous about the choice, as my heart says Win 1886, but my wallet and my common sense say Marlin. However, having searched the net and phoned to gun shops, I think the shops have chosen for me: there are only Marlins available here.

Old Sh.

P.S. A shop has a Ruger #1 in .45-70, but it has neither lever nor hammer. I prefer to cock a hammer than to push a safety slide.

Heck just get a H&R SB2-457 for about $230 new(she cocks with a hammer)
I have one and honestly like it as good as my mint 1969 Ruger#1 (45-70) better for carrying!

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks for all inputs! The thread is a joy to read and you have been very generous with advice and experience.

But I must confess that I am still ambiguous about the choice, as my heart says Win 1886, but my wallet and my common sense say Marlin. However, having searched the net and phoned to gun shops, I think the shops have chosen for me: there are only Marlins available here.

Old Sh.

P.S. A shop has a Ruger #1 in .45-70, but it has neither lever nor hammer. I prefer to cock a hammer than to push a safety slide.

Heck just get a H&R SB2-457 for about $230 new(she cocks with a hammer)
I have one and honestly like it as good as my mint 1969 Ruger#1 (45-70) better for carrying!

True dat. Also, with the H&R you have only one receiver (gun) but a whole BUNCH of caliber options... something that might or might not be an issue in Sweden.

[Old Shatterhand]

Gentlemen, I don't think the friendly suggested H&R is an alternative - it will cost as a used Marlin here. And in that case, I doubtless prefer the Marlin.

Old Sh.

[Leverdude]

Thanks for all inputs! The thread is a joy to read and you have been very generous with advice and experience.

But I must confess that I am still ambiguous about the choice, as my heart says Win 1886, but my wallet and my common sense say Marlin. However, having searched the net and phoned to gun shops, I think the shops have chosen for me: there are only Marlins available here.

Old Sh.

P.S. A shop has a Ruger #1 in .45-70, but it has neither lever nor hammer. I prefer to cock a hammer than to push a safety slide.

Dont know if it matters to you or not, but only one can say "Made in the USA" and it dont start with a W. Dont always matter to me but it does with firearms. I'v got foreign guns too but regardless of the bling factor if I can have one made here I'll buy it over one made there.

[madman4570]

Gentlemen, I don't think the friendly suggested H&R is an alternative - it will cost as a used Marlin here. And in that case, I doubtless prefer the Marlin.

Old Sh.

Since it sounds like cost is indeed an issue with you(and if you can purchase a good used Marlin for the cost of the H&R ? and one in 45-70 ?) then that kinda speaks for itself doesnt it? Didnt realize the H&R was that much or the Marlin was that cheap.Not saying the H&R is made cheap(though totally diffrent design etc. its as good made or heck maybe better than my 1973 Marlin 336C .35Rem any day of the week) And its also made in the USA!
But back to your question---------------I vote ----the Marlin for you?

[Mike D.]

Comparing a Marlin to an 1886 is like comparing a Nash Rambler to a Chevy Corvette. The Marlin is bulky and unbalanced , but the Winchester is the epitome of mechanical grace. That's why there are probably 100,000 of them still in service around the globe. If you factor in the cost of a new Marlin as opposed to a used 1886 the gap widens considerably, with the Marlin edging out the old rifle by a wide margin in that respect. On the other hand, in the long run the Winchester will rapidly accelerate in value, and the Marlin will decline. Regardless, whichever you choose will give a few lifetimes of dependable service.

[Old Shatterhand]

Nash Rambler was an unknown car to me, but I like the pictures I find of it. I would prefer one to a Corvette. Perhaps I don't shouldn't fear the Marlins anymore.



F.

[.45colt]

O.S,why don't You just get the Ruger #1 then You will have a REALLY strong Rifle. .I better get somemore popcorn. .

[Old Savage]

Shot a 3 point buck through the heart with my Marlin today. Hope that was OK.

[Hombre]

Old Shatterhand, it shouldn´t be impossible to find an old original Winchester 86 here in Sweden. Okey, I think it is harder to find one in 45-70 than one in for instance 45-90 but that doesn´t matter or....?
I have no experience at all with these new Winchesters but in my opinion if you compare an old original Marlin 1895 with a new one, well, I don´t want the new one.
I shall do what I can to try to help you, just because you have been helping me before.
No, mine are not for sale!
Best
Stefan

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have 2 japs and 3 Marlins...
The jap light rifle with the shotgun butte is a nice rifle to carry about all day long. My Marlin made in 1975 is a bit heavier and my hand does not circle around the reciever as well.
Strength.. they are both FANTASTIC.
They both shoot great with a proper fitted bullet to the throat area.
The jap is fitted and finished nicer.
If I was limited cash wise.. I would go with the Marlin and never know the difference.

[madman4570]

Shot a 3 point buck through the heart with my Marlin today. Hope that was OK.

You da man! OS

[Ravenman]

Shot a 3 point buck through the heart with my Marlin today. Hope that was OK.

Old Savage - great! Open a new topic and let us know the whole story

[Old Savage]

Rman, I will do that but time presses at this time.