model 87 lever action defect

[eagles]

I have a model 87 being finished with a fully rifled 12 gauge barrel . Coyote Cap is doing this . I was asking him why they need to have that funky leather wrap on the jointed lever when all of the orriginal 87's had a solid handle ?

He told me the orriginal ones had a fatal flaw in them , in that the hook from the trigger the lever was suppsoed to hook in would fail after a while leaving the lever loose and it woud blow open on firing, breaking the hands or fingers of the shooter.

He then said they tried to fix that with some spring set up in later models but those also failed over time in firing the gun, leading to the same accidents.

He said he fixed this problem in the 87 by installing a longer mainspring that would slip into a locking slot in the the lever as a carrier pin goes back it locks the bolt portion of the bolt-lever and that is why it is now jointed . The leather being needed to keep the pin in place and to prevent pinching of the skin in the lever..

My questiion is try as I might I find no articles on this huge flaw in the orriginal modles which one would think would have bveen big news . Has anyone else heard of this so called epidemic flaw in the old Winchester 87 's ?

[Rusty]

First for me

[KCSO]

Never heard of such a thing and I have fixed a few M87 originals and even welded up cracked frames on a couple. I trashed the leather on my 87 copy after i choked it and most of the ones around here have done the same.

[Gary7]

I have a model 87 being finished with a fully rifled 12 gauge barrel . Coyote Cap is doing this . I was asking him why they need to have that funky leather wrap on the jointed lever when all of the orriginal 87's had a solid handle ?

He told me the orriginal ones had a fatal flaw in them , in that the hook from the trigger the lever was suppsoed to hook in would fail after a while leaving the lever loose and it woud blow open on firing, breaking the hands or fingers of the shooter.

He then said they tried to fix that with some spring set up in later models but those also failed over time in firing the gun, leading to the same accidents.

He said he fixed this problem in the 87 by installing a longer mainspring that would slip into a locking slot in the the lever as a carrier pin goes back it locks the bolt portion of the bolt-lever and that is why it is now jointed . The leather being needed to keep the pin in place and to prevent pinching of the skin in the lever..

My questiion is try as I might I find no articles on this huge flaw in the orriginal modles which one would think would have bveen big news . Has anyone else heard of this so called epidemic flaw in the old Winchester 87 's ?

I think what Cap is referring to is not some "defect," per se, in the 1887, but rather the problems that Winchester ran into when they attempted to adapt the gun to smokeless shells. The 1887 as designed was fine with blackpowder shells. Smokeless, with its higher pressures and different pressure curves, was another issue. The eventual result was the 1901 with all its changes from the original 1887 design. But, in Winchester's infinite wisdom, the 1901 was only offered in 10 ga. The Chinese reproductions are really 12 ga 1901s, not 1887s.

[eagles]

Not so , his story goes on that that the fix I mentioned WAS done in the 1901 model which is the same as the 87 by the way ,exept it was a 10 gauge and had the new spring set up to correct the flaw , worked until those guns were used and because of the extra pressure of the 10 gauge they also failed and people had the very same problems , with guns going off and the levers maiming hands . He said the the guns that came from China had the leather wraps on wrong and did nothing and he had to corect them all and if you take it of you may loose the pin and lots of people drew blood from getting caught in the joint (ouch) He said under no circumstances to take it off . He lasop put about a half inch of padding in mine to help with recoil as I am going to be shooting magnum smokles loads with the Dixie Paradox type 780 grain slugs only in the gun . I would have prefered to have a solid lever if possible as I never heard of a modern gun that needed a hunk of leather to make the design work .

I am still trying to locate some verification of this story on the old gund. Thanks .

[Gary7]

Not so , his story goes on that that the fix I mentioned WAS done in the 1901 model which is the same as the 87 by the way ,exept it was a 10 gauge and had the new spring set up to correct the flaw

Well, I don't think that is correct. The 1887 never had the two-piece lever like the 1901 did.

[eagles]

His words are " to correct the problem Winchester engineeers simply put a hook and spring set up under a pivoting two piece lever on the model M-1901 10 gauge " he then goes on to say it failed after a while because of the higher pressure of the 10 gauge .

[eagles]

Gary what I said ,in rereading your reply is in agreement with what you wrote . What I said was the 1901 was the same gun as the 87 EXEPT THE 1901 DID HAVE THE JOINTED LEVER AND FIX AS I DESCRIBED AS WELL AS IT WAS A 10 GAUGE . It would seem his story is accurate since the 1901 DID have the two piece lever but I still can not find any articles that say why or report on broken wrists and fingers . The 87 never had a two piece lever ,it was in his version to prevent the accisdents that were going on ,but it did not work that well either in the long run .

[Grizzly Adams]

[/quote]I think what Cap is referring to is not some "defect," per se, in the 1887, but rather the problems that Winchester ran into when they attempted to adapt the gun to smokeless shells. The 1887 as designed was fine with blackpowder shells. Smokeless, with its higher pressures and different pressure curves, was another issue. The eventual result was the 1901 with all its changes from the original 1887 design. But, in Winchester's infinite wisdom, the 1901 was only offered in 10 ga. The Chinese reproductions are really 12 ga 1901s, not 1887s.[/quote]

+1 The 1901 incorporated changes needed to adapt it to smokeless powder, and that included the articulated locking lever. The reproductions are actually 1901s - but the cowboy crowd needs an "1887." Shooooooo......Keep it under your hat!

[eagles]

I noticed the Chiappa model uses a solid lever and used some other way to fix the problem. I agree it is really a 1901 as far as the lever goes but I really hate that you might need that leather wrap to keep the pin from falling out or getting a bloddy hand . Surely a screw in head on both sides etc could be made to avoid the falling out , what other gun needs a hunk of leather to stay together . I wonder if the Chiappa guns have the forged reciever Caps do ? That makes them very good for that reason . I am not a cowboy shooter so that secret is safe with me !!!!!

[Grizzly Adams]

I noticed the Chiappa model uses a solid lever and used some other way to fix the problem. I agree it is really a 1901 as far as the lever goes but I really hate that you might need that leather wrap to keep the pin from falling out or getting a bloddy hand . Surely a screw in head on both sides etc could be made to avoid the falling out , what other gun needs a hunk of leather to stay together . I wonder if the Chiappa guns have the forged reciever Caps do ? That makes them very good for that reason . I am not a cowboy shooter so that secret is safe with me !!!!!

Good man!

Actually, the lever wrap is there for the Cowboy action shooter to prevent pinches when working the action quickly as done in that sport. It also serves to take up some space, and provide some padding in the lever opening which again is a benefit when shooting the gun at speed in competition. Most also wrap the levers on the lever action rifles for the same reason.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and check out the world records for lever action shotgun. http://www.spencerhoglund.com/worldrecords.html

....and another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvAakEHsTcw

Neat shotgun!

[eagles]

A nice thought if that is all it was but actualy that is not what cap said . Here is a direct quote . " The lever wraps themselves are an absoulte NECESSARY ( he made that a capitol letter not me ) safty item ,meant to cover and retain the split pin and keep it from falling out , leaving the shooter holding a lever in one hand and the rest of the gun in the other " He then adds it also helps to keep from getting the skin pinched . In a follow up emial he goes on to say that that pin can bend inwards , collapse and fall out if not covered so it is very clear of the real intention of that wrap which I think is absurd in anything but a Bow to have to be held together with leather wrap . Surely there must be a way to install a better pin . I will l see if I can have that done on mime when I get it if I can find someone to tackel that .

[Grizzly Adams]

Well, I shoot cowboy action on a regular basis, and I shoot with a bunch of folks that use the 87 and I have never heard of this "defect." Ain't saying it ain't so, just saying.....

FWIW, I used to shoot an original 1901 for CAS and it had no wrap and It showed no tendencies to come apart. With 10 gauge loads, I showed some signs of wear, however!

[eagles]

If you mean they are shooting the old guns and no problems ,that is interesting . I never heard of it either which is why I thought maybe some one else hear had . I wrote to the Winchester collectors site and asked about this problem but so far got no reply either way .

Now cap also says the 1901 was a longer action than the 87. The chiappa gun IS a 1901 as it has the long action but it has the solid lever of the 87. So it seems these are all clones of both the 87 and 01 with caps adding some extra long spring that locks in the handle the rest can't have as he has a patent on it . Mechaniclay it seems his are by far the best bet ,but for that dam rinky dink pin.

His seems to be a true 87, the short action , with the jointed lever of the 01 . Not sure of the metal action strength of the Italian gun but Caps is forged and has stood pressures far above any modern shotgun from what he tells me . I wish they would make a 3 inch 12 gauge or a new 10 gauge in that since the Italain one has the long action needed to do it .

I wonder how hard it would be to take out that pin and put in maybe a threaded on two sides pin with screw heads etc . Somthing that mifght not bend and fall out if not held on with leather ? Any ideas ?

[J Miller]

eagles,

Just a thought since he hasn't weighted in on this, but have you discussed this with Nate Kiowa Jones? Since he is heavily into cowboy action shooting / gunsmithing and does know about these 1887 shotguns, he might be able to shed some light on this.

Just a thought.

Joe

[Rusty]

Since you plan on shooting this with Dixie slugs I think I'd talk over my plans with James at Dixie and see what he thinks of your idea if you haven't already. A 750 grain slug at 1200 FPS might be more push than that action is capable of handling for a long time.
I'd like to know what James has to say myself.

[eagles]

Caps model 87 is the strongest shotgun action made with an all forged reciever like an Ak-47 . As an example alll the guns out there like the remington pumps etc that shoot the Dixie slug all the time are only good for 18,000 to about 26,000 pounds before they fail . His model 87 was taken all the way up to 44,500 lbs and then that pesky lever pin bent but no problem to the action or barrel. They went higher and they could NOT blow the gun up

.Anyone doubting this can contact him for the test results . Shiooting those slugs at high velocity with other brands that dont have full forged recievers l may not be a good idea . So if you wan't to shoot Dixie slugs and be safe this is the gun to do it with .

I talked to James about it and he thought it was a real neat project before he sent me the slugs which have been loaded into solid head, all Brass cases and the barrel left extra heavy contour , and chambered for those brass hulls as they are of course a bit longer than a paper shell because they are full length as if the paper one had allready opened up . I can get 3 inch magnum velocity loads with it no problem because of the extra length of the hulls it can iold a little more powder . The Gun was test fired with very heavy loads and showed not a hint of presure . This gun will be featured in the NRA magazine Cap has said when finished (almost there ) . I would like to get a forged pin in that lever though .

[eagles]

I dont know Nate but if he has any ideas on a better pin , forged etc for the lever I wish he would tell me if he can do that . This gun is NOT for cowboy action shooting but for big game (Boar ) and well just the hell of it !!!!!

[Grizzly Adams]

Well, you really have peaked my curiosity. I'll be seeing Cap at Winter Range in February. I'll have to visit with him about this.

[eagles]

Well Cap is very proud of this gun he has built for me as am I and I am sure he will love to tell you all about it. The laser checkering was just done and the edwards recoil reducer is being installed in the butstock . The gun has a modified peep rear site , fiber optic front and leather cheeck piece . To me his product is far and above the other copies even with that pin issue that just is a personal peve of mine . I hope to have it by the time you see him !!!!

[Grizzly Adams]

Yep, Cap is an old school gunsmith - and one of the best out there. When you get that bad boy, make sure you put up some pics!

[eagles]

I will let you know when I do . I have been trying like hell to get this done now for over a year I think and it seems very close .

[eagles]

Well its 2012, hard to believe it BUT I JUST GOT THE GUN !!!!!! I had a nightmare of a time with Cap in the end and had to have the gun sent to Reesers in Pa to fix all the myriad of problems that came from him. It got so bad, when I demanded he send the gun to another shop to fix , he refused to even let me send my own gun to another Smith. I was forced to do a charge back on the credit card until he released my gun. Then he even told the credit card company I was trying to get the work for free !!! Everyone thought that was pretty funny since I documented everything with the credit card company and when I first told him I was going to do that if he did not let my gun go and stop kidnapping it, he laughed at me and said go ahead we dropped taking credit cards as if that some how protected him from being responsible for his problems he created with my gun . Once he let the gun go I instructed the company to pay him and they did , even though he claimed to have removed the credit card extra charge he never told me about until I got the bill . I found out later he got it anyway. The fore end pieces arrived at Ressers ,both cracked and warped, the magazine tube was not attached to the large barrel well and moved on each shot , contributing too for end damage . No rear peep sight was installed as he kept moaning about the Chinese putting a Metric thread in the bolt peep hole . The forward sling swivel attachment was poor and the but stock hardly had a spot of finish on it. The so called laser checkering was very poor with hunks of wood that looked bare and gouged out . When the gun was ready to be picked up by UPS he "discovered " even though I had sent loaded and empty brass shells with the barrel , the whole thing was not set up for them , had to start over on the timing etc . Reesers recut the checkering , got some replacement fore arms pieces from him , put fiber glass on them to make them stronger , scraped the magazine attachment and made a far better one that is solid and a better sling swivel attachment . he fixed the rear metric thread problem for the bolt peep by just using a metric thread bolt , wow that as hard to figure out . Installed a fiber optic from sight and polished some burs inside the action that made it a bit rough . The gun now looks GREAT. Big problem is I never had him test the feed and ejection which I was hoping he got right .BIG MISTAKE . If I put three rounds in the magazine it is a 40 percent chance they will come out and into the lifter and if they get in the chamber , even unfired they eject a third of the time .So after four years there is more work to do to get a reliable gun. I will either send it back to Reesers or maybe try John Lassiter as I hear he tunes these real good. I saw a youtube video where some guy in Australia had the lever welded solid , may try and have that done as well . The gun now looks great thanks to Jake at Reesers and if anyone wants to see pictures email me at willsanders@earthlink.net I can can send a few to post as I am not good at that . I wanted to give an update and even I did not realize it was four years plus .