1886 Blowup.

[Wrangler John]

I was at the range last Monday, when a fellow that shoots a collection of Winchester 1886's had one of his acquisitions blowup. He had been experiencing some difficulty with commercially manufactured .38-56 ammunition, and his own reloads. All loads were cast bullets with smokeless equivalent charges. His cases were reformed .45-70 Winchester brass that were showing incipient head separation after a few firings, the .38-56 commercial ammo had their shoulder set back further than his fired cases. He was firing these cases to blow the shoulder forward, remarking that it was unusual but something that he had done in the past. These cases were of Jamison manufacture head stamped .38-56. One shot with the commercial ammo tore the rifle apart.

The barrel split through the chamber, tore off the top of the receiver, blew the right side of the action about 35 feet to the right rear, blew the magazine tube downward, splitting it. The fore end completely shattered throwing splinters to both sides. On the right side of the action only the loading gate remained in place, all internal working parts were exposed. The right side locking bar was completely exposed as the blowup removed the action wall clear to the hammer. The cartridge lifter and link were blown free, the left side was cracked. My firing position was two benches to the left, but fortunately I was returning to the line when it happened. No one was injured including the shooter. Had this happened a week earlier, when the range was crowded, most likely some one would have been hit.

I urge everyone to pay attention to warning signs when shooting these old rifles. Even though the barrel was marked .38-56 it is impossible to know the history of the rifle, or any work done to it. There are methods to assess chambers, such as taking a cast, and there are methods of testing steel for defects, such as magnafluxing and others. Given that the commercial ammunition was most likely to specification, and that reformed cases were experiencing early head separation, the rifle was performing suspiciously. It is always best to err on the side of caution.

[Grizzly Adams]

I was at the range last Monday, when a fellow that shoots a collection of Winchester 1886's had one of his acquisitions blowup. He had been experiencing some difficulty with commercially manufactured .38-56 ammunition, and his own reloads. All loads were cast bullets with smokeless equivalent charges. His cases were reformed .45-70 Winchester brass that were showing incipient head separation after a few firings, the .38-56 commercial ammo had their shoulder set back further than his fired cases. He was firing these cases to blow the shoulder forward, remarking that it was unusual but something that he had done in the past. These cases were of Jamison manufacture head stamped .38-56. One shot with the commercial ammo tore the rifle apart.

The barrel split through the chamber, tore off the top of the receiver, blew the right side of the action about 35 feet to the right rear, blew the magazine tube downward, splitting it. The fore end completely shattered throwing splinters to both sides. On the right side of the action only the loading gate remained in place, all internal working parts were exposed. The right side locking bar was completely exposed as the blowup removed the action wall clear to the hammer. The cartridge lifter and link were blown free, the left side was cracked. My firing position was two benches to the left, but fortunately I was returning to the line when it happened. No one was injured including the shooter. Had this happened a week earlier, when the range was crowded, most likely some one would have been hit.

I urge everyone to pay attention to warning signs when shooting these old rifles. Even though the barrel was marked .38-56 it is impossible to know the history of the rifle, or any work done to it. There are methods to assess chambers, such as taking a cast, and there are methods of testing steel for defects, such as magnafluxing and others. Given that the commercial ammunition was most likely to specification, and that reformed cases were experiencing early head separation, the rifle was performing suspiciously. It is always best to err on the side of caution.

Most unusual. I have seen pics of various "blow ups" with the Winchester 1886 and the Marlin 1895, and I don't recall one that did that kind of damage to the frame. Did anyone get any pics of this? Be interesting to see.

Glad no one was injured.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Even the old 86's are pretty strong. I would venture as guess that this gun had an obstruction just in front of the chamber or possibly double bullets in the case.

[kimwcook]

Really glad to hear no one was hurt, but to lose an '86, that sucks.

[Old Savage]

An old one blew here (leverguns) a while back.

[Mike D.]

I am anxious to hear the COMPLETE story of this unfortunate event. As a long time .38-56 Winchester owner and shooter this is of serious concern to me.

[Ray Newman]

“His cases were reformed .45-70 Winchester brass that were showing incipient head separation after a few firings, the .38-56 commercial ammo had their shoulder set back further than his fired cases. He was firing these cases to blow the shoulder forward, remarking that it was unusual but something that he had done in the past.”

Another case of "Operator Error" -- the warnings signs were there, but the Shooter choose to ignore them.

And as the original poster said, you can not be too careful with these older BP rifles.

[Old Savage]

And then exactly what went wrong?

[Kansas Ed]

IMO we're missing the critical piece of information. His reloads were showing separation, not the commercial brass which actually wrecked the rifle. Given that, the commercial loads were new Jamison Brass...not likely to show full case failure even with the headspace probability. So something else happened.

Blowing the shoulders forward is not in and of itself dangerous...unless something happened to constitute severe bolt setback prior. Even with substantial bolt setback, at those purported pressures, and new brass it would take something more than a weak action to blow the receiver. I'm with Nate on this one...blockage just forward of the chamber is the most likely, with bad commercial ammo being the second. Even a double bullet I doubt would have done it, unless the second bullet migrated loose inside the case.

One thing really bothers me about this. He was showing severe case head separation and kept shooting the reloads. That gives a little insight into what kind of reloader/load developer he was. I've had one rifle that exhibited signs of separation, and I pulled the bullets immediately and threw away all of the brass. If he didn't stop after seeing the signs on the reloads, it tells me his reloading skills and troubleshooting skills are in question.

It's a miriacle no one was injured.

Ed

[Old Savage]

The Marlin that we saw down here that did something similar seemed to have had a bullet kicked a couple of inches down the barrel an then the powder in mass went off and ripped it open from the barrel back.

[Wrangler John]

I was at the range last Monday, when a fellow that shoots a collection of Winchester 1886's had one of his acquisitions blowup. He had been experiencing some difficulty with commercially manufactured .38-56 ammunition, and his own reloads. All loads were cast bullets with smokeless equivalent charges. His cases were reformed .45-70 Winchester brass that were showing incipient head separation after a few firings, the .38-56 commercial ammo had their shoulder set back further than his fired cases. He was firing these cases to blow the shoulder forward, remarking that it was unusual but something that he had done in the past. These cases were of Jamison manufacture head stamped .38-56. One shot with the commercial ammo tore the rifle apart.

The barrel split through the chamber, tore off the top of the receiver, blew the right side of the action about 35 feet to the right rear, blew the magazine tube downward, splitting it. The fore end completely shattered throwing splinters to both sides. On the right side of the action only the loading gate remained in place, all internal working parts were exposed. The right side locking bar was completely exposed as the blowup removed the action wall clear to the hammer. The cartridge lifter and link were blown free, the left side was cracked. My firing position was two benches to the left, but fortunately I was returning to the line when it happened. No one was injured including the shooter. Had this happened a week earlier, when the range was crowded, most likely some one would have been hit.

I urge everyone to pay attention to warning signs when shooting these old rifles. Even though the barrel was marked .38-56 it is impossible to know the history of the rifle, or any work done to it. There are methods to assess chambers, such as taking a cast, and there are methods of testing steel for defects, such as magnafluxing and others. Given that the commercial ammunition was most likely to specification, and that reformed cases were experiencing early head separation, the rifle was performing suspiciously. It is always best to err on the side of caution.

Most unusual. I have seen pics of various "blow ups" with the Winchester 1886 and the Marlin 1895, and I don't recall one that did that kind of damage to the frame. Did anyone get any pics of this? Be interesting to see.

Glad no one was injured.

The Rangemaster took a series of photos as a record, but I don't carry a camera to the range. I too was dumbfounded by the level of destruction. Guesses concentrated on an overload in the commercial cartridges. I viewed the failed case, it was split and unfolded full length to the solid head, with the primer partially extruded into the firing pin hole. The only way to tell what happened would be to have a failure analysis laboratory investigate the remaining pieces, however with the damage limited to the rifle and no liability involved, the cost wouldn't be justified.

[SJPrice]

I am sure glad no one was hurt. I would imagine the shooter has now developed a FLINCH

[Wrangler John]

IMO we're missing the critical piece of information. His reloads were showing separation, not the commercial brass which actually wrecked the rifle. Given that, the commercial loads were new Jamison Brass...not likely to show full case failure even with the headspace probability. So something else happened.

Blowing the shoulders forward is not in and of itself dangerous...unless something happened to constitute severe bolt setback prior. Even with substantial bolt setback, at those purported pressures, and new brass it would take something more than a weak action to blow the receiver. I'm with Nate on this one...blockage just forward of the chamber is the most likely, with bad commercial ammo being the second. Even a double bullet I doubt would have done it, unless the second bullet migrated loose inside the case.

One thing really bothers me about this. He was showing severe case head separation and kept shooting the reloads. That gives a little insight into what kind of reloader/load developer he was. I've had one rifle that exhibited signs of separation, and I pulled the bullets immediately and threw away all of the brass. If he didn't stop after seeing the signs on the reloads, it tells me his reloading skills and troubleshooting skills are in question.

It's a miriacle no one was injured.

Ed

True about blowing the shoulder forward, I fireform .35-348 Winchester Ackley cases that fire without any problem - although in a bolt action. The shooter in this case was concerned about the incipient head separation, he showed us the cases and mentioned it was not normal. I suppose that should be the warning sign to stop, which he did, switching to commercially loaded ammunition. I suspect that something changed with the rifle. The barrel was stamped .38-56 so that was at least not the problem. Pressure signs with rimmed cartridges aren't as obvious as rimless, so one has to be careful. In any event, I wanted to report the incident as a caution to '86 shooters. That rifle cost him $2,000, and could have caused a great deal of injury.

[Nath]

I shot a factory 222 years ago, it spat bits into my face and I struggled to open the bolt. The primer fell out! The case head would not go in a shell holder after!

Nath.

[Mike D.]

It could also that he bought a rifle that had been altered in some way. The .38-56 was the "small" caliber of the 1886 until 1902 when the .33 WCF was introduced. No pre-1900 .38-56 rifles have Nickel Steel barrels, all are either Bessemer Soft Steel or Ordnance Steel. Regardless, the pressure must be kept below 28,000 PSI to ensure safety for the shooter and not to compromise the already aged metal. If you load new Bertram brass you will be moving the shoulder forward and forming it to your rifle's chamber. I have done this many times as it is needed to properly conform this brass.

I am also curious about the chamber, throat, and bore condition of the exploded rifle. Lead buildup can be an issue with eroded bores, especially immediately forward of the chamber. Of course, we will never why this particular gun let go, but we can learn from this event. Knowing your gun's overall condition is paramount to safe shooting.

[ole pizen slinger]

Case head separation was mentioned. I assume this means the rim and just forward of the rim separated. What about the rest of the case? I have had BP loads in 45-110 separate with the forward portion of the case either going down the barrel and exiting with the bullet or lodging in the front portion of the chamber. I wonder if he failed to remove the separated brass from the barrel and then shot the commercial loads. Just an hypothesis!
ole pizen slinger

[w30wcf]

........... One shot with the commercial ammo tore the rifle apart. The barrel split through the chamber, tore off the top of the receiver, blew the right side of the action about 35 feet to the right rear.......

That is a catastrophic failure for sure. To blow the right side of the reciever off the the rifle would take an awful lot of high pressure which could only be generated with a faulty cartridge containing way too much powder.

I'm glad to hear that no one was hurt. Tha maker of that ammo should definitely be contacted and some rounds dissected for a forensic investigation.

Sixgun had the unfortunate experience of having a 45-90 1886 let go and did not have the right side of the receiver blown off the rifle. It was splayed but still intact as the pic shows.


http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

w30wcf

[Ysabel Kid]

Really glad to hear no one was hurt, but to lose an '86, that sucks.

+1 on both counts. The shooter and those around him got very lucky!!!