OT: Lathe turned shells

[AmBraCol]

It doesn't take much to excite yours truly when it comes to firearms related items located down here just north of the Equator and south of the Canal. Yesterday a friend took me to visit a general store in a neighboring town that carries reloading supplies for local small holders. Modern weapons and ammunition are tightly controlled by the powers that be but black powder and related items for loading old singleshot shotguns or muzzle loaders are still sold in a very few stores around the country.

This particular store had their items right up front in the display case where you could see them. They have steel and brass shells for loading shotguns and some primitive boxer type primers as well. I picked up a couple of lathe turned brass shells "for science". Next time I'll see about picking up some of the steel shells if possible. My desire was to grab some 12 bore shells, but am holding out for full length brass lathe turned ones. It took me a while to shift mental gears or I'd have grabbed a pair of the steel 12 bore shells "for science", it wasn't until I was well on my way home that it hit me that the steel ones would be interesting to examine more fully.

I tossed together a little pictorial essay about the items I DID pick up. You can see it here:

http://paulmoreland.com/2011/01/22/20-b ... ed-shells/

They are a bit crude, but I'm sure they'd "get 'er done". The heavy walls would be an extra margin of safety when loading in a rusty old singleshot weapon such as many small holders down here have. I can't but help wonder about who today might make a 0.565" groove diameter barrel and if anyone made a 2" 56 caliber straight wall cartridge "back in the day". Yeah, it's idle pondering as any manufacture of a cartridge firing rifle down here would get one in a heap of trouble, but I can't help but ponder it just the same.

[jhrosier]

Paul,

.56 caliber is close to 28 ga.

Jack

[Kansas Ed]

I looked at your photo's, but I'm of the opinion that they might pose a greater danger rather than extra safety margin with those thick walls. Looks to me like those thick walls would eliminate any expansion of the case to fill the chamber upon firing, allowing the gas to vent back into the action. But my opinion is strictly unexperienced and without proof.

Ed

[AmBraCol]

Paul,

.56 caliber is close to 28 ga.

Jack

Thanks, Jack.

Yes, the heavy walls on these cases reduce internal capacity somewhat. They are, after all, intended to allow folks to use black powder to produce safe loadings for ancient and abused shotguns. I'd not got to the point of thinking in terms of actual shotgun sizes, but yes, 56 is VERY close to 28 gauge. Well, you made me go look. 28 gauge = 55 cal, roughly, and 32 gauge is roughly 52 cal. So this would be something like 27 gauge I guess. Inside case diameter, that is. Outside diameter of the case is smaller than the SAAMI chamber specs, if I'm reading the diagram right. They should be a loose fit. Need to find an old 20 gauge gun to try them in for fit.

[AmBraCol]

I looked at your photo's, but I'm of the opinion that they might pose a greater danger rather than extra safety margin with those thick walls. Looks to me like those thick walls would eliminate any expansion of the case to fill the chamber upon firing, allowing the gas to vent back into the action. But my opinion is strictly unexperienced and without proof.

Ed

You're right, Ed. Case expansion is going to be about nil. BUT we are talking about BLACK POWDER loading which is a different animal than smokeless. Here's some stuff I've seen over the years, for reasons why I'd not worry too much about using these shells.

In Brazil (where I grew up) they believe in "veneno" (poison) as the main killing factor in a firearm. The theory is that as the shot travels down the barrel it picks up poison from the walls of the barrel and THAT is what kills the game. That is why a 22 LR doesn't do very much good usually since it doesn't develop much poison and that is why a 20 gauge kills so well because of the amount of poison transferred to the shot in the huge barrel. No, reason and science have no bearing on their belief system. This belief means that folks simply don't clean their shotguns and they tend to corrode quickly. I've seen CBC brand full brass balloon head shot shells with cotton twine wrapped around them just in front of the rim so that they would head space correctly and extract. "Headspace correctly" meaning that they won't slip so far into the oversized bore that the firing pin won't reach them. I've seen folks reuse cases with longitudinal cracks in the brass that has been embrittled due to corrosive priming and untold number of firings.

The pressures generated inside of a black powder shotshell are very low. The heavy brass of these shells would greatly aid the containment of the charge when fired. Even if used in a seriously oversized (from corrosion) chamber, my guess is that they would work much better at containing the gasses upon firing than that old twine wrapped thin walled shell would do.

[Kansas Ed]

Wow!! Twine...poison ? Geeze, makes me think we way over analyze the details now a days...We worry about .005" too much headspace and these folks wrap twine around their cases...

Ed

[AmBraCol]

Wow!! Twine...poison ? Geeze, makes me think we way over analyze the details now a days...We worry about .005" too much headspace and these folks wrap twine around their cases...

Ed

After observing a lot of things where I grew up it is amusing to me to see people concerned with bowing up their muzzle loading rifle with "too much powder". 150 grains of FFFg in a 50 caliber heavy wall octagon barrelled rifle pushing a well lubed slug is tame compared to a 38 spl case of FFFg in a curtain rod barrelled, brazed mild steel wire reinforced breech "smooth bore" pushing a tightly packed jute fiber wad under a half dozen 3T shot with another wad of tightly packed jute fiber on top of it.

The first front stuffer I ever bought was an abused "monkey tail" inline that I shot a few times before taking it apart to clean out the "poison". When I separated the barrel from the stock I found SERIOUS pitting just in front of the chamber area on the OUTside. No telling WHAT it looked like on the inside. Had to mark it up to "experience" and never did get it fixed, by that time blacksmiths were few and far between. A normal fix would have been to cut the chamber area off, weld a new section of barrel material to the rear and then braze some mild steel wire around the whole shebang to strengthen it. Oh, this one was about 35 caliber and the normal charge per local custom was a 32 swl shell full of FFFg. Several shots of that charge did NOT cause the barrel to rupture at the corrosion points (or anywhere else) - but at least I was smart enough to quit while I was ahead once I saw what was going on under the wood.

[BAGTIC]

I wonder if the walls of those cases are tapered. If they are they would probably expand enough somewhere to seal off the gases. It wouldn't matter if it was halfway up the case or more.

[AmBraCol]

I wonder if the walls of those cases are tapered. If they are they would probably expand enough somewhere to seal off the gases. It wouldn't matter if it was halfway up the case or more.

I believe that they are straight, there is no perceptible (to MY eye) taper at all. It looks to me like they chucked a piece of brass in the lathe, turned it down to diameter, bored out the center, flipped it around, cut it off, trimmed the rim to diameter and thickness then bored the hole for the primer. Yesterday I confirmed that they are .07" over size compared to a large pistol primer. Borrowed a 44 mag shell from a friend's collection, punched out the primer, measured, dropped the spent primer into the case just to confirm and tried to force one of the Colombian primers into the 44 mag. LP is too small for the Colombian shell, Colombian primer is too large for the 44 mag. I still haven't taken time to test, but I'm 99% sure they will come up positive for corrosive compound. Not a big deal as they are designed for black powder anyway so you've got to wash out the bore no matter what.