OT need to vent about S&W

[dandee]

I have a x-frame smith in .500 and it has shot way high since the day I got it. I thought it might be something simple like a higher front sight, but I wanted to scope it so I did. I still shoots so high I can not even shim the scope mounts to get it on target, so I sent it in letting them know all about it. So what did they do, put a higher front sight on it even though I told them I shoot it scoped. I called them the next day and was told there was nothing they could do about it I also told them that I had mic'd the frame and the cylinder seems to be angled. They told me that could not be the case so here I sit with a $1000 gun that you can not hit anything with and about $600 in scopes and mounts. They also told me my scope was a piece of stuff even though I know it is one of the best pistol scopes made ( Bushnell elite 3200). Not haveing a good firearm day Wish I could get Jeff at gunblast to review my handgun maybe they would listen to him.

[RIHMFIRE]

I have been shooting S&W all my life and never had a problem like that..
and the one time i did have a problem...they sent me the part for free...
So your gun shoots high...how high?....
Are you shooting factory loads or reloads?
How about a pic of the sights and the scope mount...
Someone hear is bound to be able to help you

[dandee]

At 25 yrds with iron sight it is shooting about 18in high with my scope with a .010 shim with the scope dialed all they way down it is shooting about 5 in high at 100yrds with 350gr xtp heavier slugs from corbon are a couple of in higher. I dont have a camera but the mounts I am using are
http://jackweigand.com/sswhpmnts.html
The cylinder and top strap are not parallel, the back of the cylinder is almost touching the top strap like .003 away but the front on the cylinder is around .030 from the top strap I dont know if this is common or if I have a frame alignment problem.
Also I am shooting from sandbags with nothing touching the grip other than my hand.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

They haven't been the same since Bangor-Punta was dissolved. I think they passed to a British conglomerate after that era and got significantly worse. I'm not sure who owns them today ... but I doubt it's real gun people. I have one modern gun from them purchased new ... my last one for sure.

I wouldn't hesitate to still buy the early stuff and I do own a Bangor-Punta era model 41 which is very well made and accurate.

You can count among their accomplishments ...

Copy the Glock .... check.
Copy the 1911 .... check.
Copy the AR-15 ... check.
Jump into the Clinton gun ban wagon with both feet ... check.
Get crushed in the revolver market by the people in Brazil (Taurus Forge) that you subcontracted with decades ago ... check.

I'm sure they've innovated on some front in the last 20 years ... I just am unaware since I have no interest in their modern stuff.

[AJMD429]

I'm sure they've innovated on some front in the last 20 years ... I just am unaware since I have no interest in their modern stuff.

I will admit I like the cartridges of .500 S&W and .460 S&W, though to me they are more appropriate for a lever action carbine and lever action rifle, respectively. I don't ever want to have only a handgun in a situation that a .454 Casull or .500 Linebaugh can't handle - the .460 S&W handgun seems more ungainly to carry or sling than a carbine levergun, anyway.

[KWK]

Get crushed in the revolver market by the people in Brazil

I ordered a Taurus revolver last summer. The chambers were so misaligned to the bore I considered it unsafe. I took a Ruger home instead.

[earlmck]

I'm with you dandee: there's something wrong with that revolver. And they should fix or replace if they want to keep selling stuff to us gun people.

I've got a pre-war colt revolver (pre-WW1, that is) that has exactly the same symptoms. I just figured granddad used it to pound fence staples, or something similar, and bent the barrel. Yours, however, has to be a manufacturing defect.

[dandee]

I am going to go through the whole gun, the best I can without taking it apart and measure it. Also going to go through my scope mount and rings to double check them.

[dandee]

If that is just the way Smith and Wesson sales there guns and it is not screwed up I will be trading it in on a BFR. I am not use to having to tinker with a $1000 handgun to get it to shoot.

[firefuzz]

They haven't been the same since Bangor-Punta was dissolved.........

It's funny you should say that....the older than me, yes there are still a few of them out there, guys I know that shoot Smith's cuss Bango-Punta like the plague for ruining S&W. I've got a couple of Bangor guns that are great...after a little tuning. My pre-Bangor guns are of a much better quality both in fit and finish.

The early model "L" frames were the perfect example of pushing guns thru the line to fast, the first 3 I bought all had to go back to the factory with serious problems. After these latest changes to the entire line I won't buy a new one but have openings in my stable for any older models.

BTW, I have a question....At what point in time is a pistol cartridge too big to functionally serve in any pistol other than a single shot? Also what's the expected service life of these hand cannons....500 rounds, a thousand? I quit shooting .44 mags years ago as too much for a practical handgun, still love the .44 special tho.

Rob

[jdad]

Not trying to hijack the service issues, but I have met several people that were owners of .500 & .460 S&W's.

All of their comments were the same... the gun was more of a "novelty" like the Desert Eagle....not a fun "range" gun.........real expensive to shoot even if you reload.......action started getting loose after a hundred or so rounds.....the .460 will shoot little 100yd scoped groups.

[earlmck]

BTW, I have a question....At what point in time is a pistol cartridge too big to functionally serve in any pistol other than a single shot? Also what's the expected service life of these hand cannons....500 rounds, a thousand? I quit shooting .44 mags years ago as too much for a practical handgun, still love the .44 special tho.

Rob

I don't know Rob, but suspect large differences by design. I'm guilty of almost always loading "full bore"; Colt Python kinda' loose and out-of-time after 2500 rounds, so retired it for a Ruger GP100. Ruger Redhawk 44 mag seems "good as ever" after a bit over 2000 rounds of heavy loads (280 or 300 gr. LBT at about 1400fps). I've never owned a large S&W, so no experience at all there.

[Chas.]

If that is just the way Smith and Wesson sales there guns and it is not screwed up I will be trading it in on a BFR.

You won't be unhappy with BFR. I have 2. My older one, a .45-70, has between 2000 and 3000 rounds through it and it's just as tight as the day I bought it. I've never messed with FA, but folks that have experience with both give the FA higher marks. However, BFR is a notch up from Ruger in fit/finish/ and general quality, and that's saying a lot.

[J Miller]

I am going to go through the whole gun, the best I can without taking it apart and measure it. Also going to go through my scope mount and rings to double check them.

dandee,
S&W's are not hard to disassemble. Mater of fact they're pretty easy.
I've owned them for decades and can do it pretty much blind folded.

I'm in agreement that yours needs to be looked at by a reputable gunsmith knowledgeable in S&Ws. Then when found defective you may well have recourse against them. Something that shoots that high is beyond comprehension.

As for the N frames they are a 100+ year old design that will not hold up against heavy use of full power ammunition. Too many small parts and they wear fast.
Both my current ones are semi retired and will go bye bye if and when the right sucker ...... 'er, I mean buyer comes along. I won't advertise them though.

Joe

[RIHMFIRE]

At 25 yrds with iron sight it is shooting about 18in high with my scope with a .010 shim with the scope dialed all they way down it is shooting about 5 in high at 100yrds with 350gr xtp heavier slugs from corbon are a couple of in higher. I dont have a camera but the mounts I am using are
http://jackweigand.com/sswhpmnts.html
The cylinder and top strap are not parallel, the back of the cylinder is almost touching the top strap like .003 away but the front on the cylinder is around .030 from the top strap I dont know if this is common or if I have a frame alignment problem.
Also I am shooting from sandbags with nothing touching the grip other than my hand.

assuming the rear sight is adjusted correctly....18" high is a bit rediculous...
Thers definately something wrong with the gun...you mentioned the top strap and
the cylinder are not paralell....I would go to a gun shop and check out another gun
to see if there are any major diferences...If you bought it new in the box....
I would take it back to the gun shop you bought it from and make them send it back to S&W
and insist that smith test fire the gun....send them your
target and info on the rounds you are shooting and document everything...
You might want to give the factory a call and talk to the master gunsmith
in the custom shop.....not management....

[Kansas Ed]

There can be several reasons that the cylinder is not parallel to the top strap, and you have only covered one of them. It could also be that the receiver is broached crooked. This could be evident by varying thickness of the top strap if you can measure it. The other possibility is that the cylinder itself is tapered.

Never the less, I think it unlikely that even if the cylinder was at an angle in the receiver it would behave the way you describe. Once the bullet leaves the cylinder, the guidance of the barrel takes over...so even if the cylinder was in at an angle, once it enters the barrel..the point of impact becomes a function of the barrel. If the bullet was deformed enough by the angle of the cylinder, it would cause consistency problems...not IMO POI problems. I think it's more likely that the barrel is in crooked to the receiver. This might be evident by a small gap at the barrel shoulder on the bottom where it meets the receiver.

I would be pretty hot over the response of S*W though...give you stuff and expect you to just live with it..some states have lemon laws which may or may not apply to you. I would pursue them if you are still within the time frame allowed.

I swore off of S*W back in the eighties...and choked down my misgiviings a few months ago and bought one of their Walther PPK/S pistols. I dreaded the worst but the price was too good to pass up. I am pleased to say that it is flawless in function and accuracy. But I see this as an exception to the norm.

Ed

[Ravenman]

S&W quality seems to be very different. Friend of mine bought a unfired S&W 29-3 3" 44 Magnum revolver from a collector.
The first trip to the range was also the last trip!

After about 3 chambers fired with Magtech factory 240grs. FMJ ammo the gun broke down and was pretty useless later on.



Good for him that it happened on the range and not while hunting or used as a backup gun.

[Tycer]

Sorry for your woes. Please keep us posted on your progress.

[Hankster]

Sorry, but "swing out cylinder" revolvers are not a good base to build these "atomic load" handguns on! The first of the commercially sucessfull biggies was the .454 Casull.... and it was designed on a SINGLE ACTION Framed gun for a REASON! STRENGTH! IMHO.....

[Rimfire McNutjob]

They haven't been the same since Bangor-Punta was dissolved.........

It's funny you should say that....the older than me, yes there are still a few of them out there, guys I know that shoot Smith's cuss Bango-Punta like the plague for ruining S&W. I've got a couple of Bangor guns that are great...after a little tuning. My pre-Bangor guns are of a much better quality both in fit and finish.

The early model "L" frames were the perfect example of pushing guns thru the line to fast, the first 3 I bought all had to go back to the factory with serious problems. After these latest changes to the entire line I won't buy a new one but have openings in my stable for any older models.

BTW, I have a question....At what point in time is a pistol cartridge too big to functionally serve in any pistol other than a single shot? Also what's the expected service life of these hand cannons....500 rounds, a thousand? I quit shooting .44 mags years ago as too much for a practical handgun, still love the .44 special tho.

Rob

I agree with you about Bangor-Punta ... but early on the quality was still good. It took BP a while to wreck it. My model 41 is a fine gun but it had already been in production for a while before BP took over. As I recall, it was 1964 or 1965 that the sale from the Wesson family completed. I think the BP era represented a long slow decline for S&W products. The one modern gun I have from S&W is an early 90's 648 (post-BP) ... which I believe is an "L" frame. Funny you should mention the "L" frame in your post. I will not be buying another from that time period. I believe that was the time where S&W was owned by a British conglomerate. The low quality that BP was churning out in the 80's simple fell off a cliff in the 90's.

Once you get into the late 70's and beyond with S&W you are just asking for trouble. And I'm not saying the Taurus stuff is quality made, it's just that it's less than 1/2 the price. If you're going to roll the dice, you might as well pay less.

Maybe they have made a comeback these days, but from the sound of the OP's issue I'd say that's unlikely. Anyway, someone else can give them try ... I'm done with them.

[dandee]

Spoke to smith again today and they are just not going to admit there can be any thing wrong. They have done all they can do by replacing the front sight. I did go through and measure everything I could and it all looks fine there may be a small gap in the lower barrel frame matchup but I am not sure. Going to put my mount on the mill today and put a 20 moa cut on it so I can at least get on target. Waiting for the pawn shop to get a BFR in I guess so I can make a trade who knows when that will happen. Thanks for all the replys I guess this is the end of the story for know no happy ending.

[Ben_Rumson]

With the cylinder open...Run a snug fitting dowel or drill rod thru the barrel & see where it points at the rear of the frame.. Hopefully it will be pointing at the firing pin hole...Also you can see how it centers on or into the chamber mouths when the cylinder is shut...Might tell you if anything out of alignment...If things are bad take a pic and send it to S&W...