OT--Rabid animals, how common?

[getitdone1]

Over the past 10 years I've encountered 3 rabid animals here in SW Indiana. I guessing they were rabid because I don't know what else it could have been.

1. Mushroom hunting and spot a Racoon about 75 feet away sitting at the base of a tree. I know it had to see me but it didn't move at all. I went the other direction and about 30 minutes later came back and the coon was still sitting in the same place. If I'd had a gun with me I'd have killed it because, in my mind, it just about had to have rabies. I hear racoons are the animal most likely to have rabies in this area.

2. I go to enter an open door of our old smoke house and there lying on vegetation pulled from flower bed in an old galvanized tub is a coon. It didn't move and I'm only about 3 feet away. I go to house and get shotgun and shoot into garden area hoping to scare it out of the building and then shoot it. It didn't move! I go back to house and get 22 and shoot it in the head.

3. My niece gives me a call on her cell phone telling me there's a coyote about 1/4 mile south along the road that's just standing there. I get shotgun and as I'm approaching with pickup another pickup comes toward me and stops. The coyote starts walking toward my direction and I kill it with shotgun. No healthy coyote ever acts like that.

I'm guessing here but expect I'm right about all three of these animals. I read that rabies effects animals in 3 stages. First they catch the disease and then in stage two they are dangerous and may attack and in stage three they are too sick to attack. Is this right?

Expect others in this group have had similar experiences and like to hear from you.

This is one very good reason to always carry a gun when in the woods.

Don

[L_Kilkenny]

More than likely the first coon wasn't rabid but instead had distemper. Seen that a dozen or so times. 3 in one day and all within 1/4 mile of each other was the worst case. The second hard to tell. We'll go into barns around here and coon will just lay still many times trying to play invisible. Seen it many many times. Could of been sick, might of just been keeping it's fingers crossed. From the reports I've seen actual rabies in coon is very rare but they are susceptible to both canine and feline distemper and it will wipe out a whole timber in short order.

Coyote = ? too. I've seen coyotes do some of the stupidest things some times.

I've run into/shot a couple confirmed (tested at the university) rabid skunks. Out in daylight doing laps around bushes and trees. Staggering all over. Pretty easy to tell with rabies.

Anytime you shoot what you think is a sick critter leave it lay and contact animal control or DNR. Most of the time they'll want it tested.

LK

Edited to add: If you shoot em in the head they can't test for rabies. Shoot em in the chest, LOTS!

[kimwcook]

Just don't shoot it in the head. They need the brain to test for rabies.

Rabies around here is rare, but occassionally one will show up. I've never come across anything that gave me pause for rabies.

[awp101]

Could 1 and 2 have been poisoned? That sounds an awful lot like the first rat I nailed in the Great Rattenkrieg of 2010 around here. Two of us less than three feet away and it didn't even acknowledge our presence. Until I whacked it with a metal yard stick.

Found out later someone around here had put out poison and that's why it acted that way.

[J Miller]

You sure they weren't life sized stuffed toys like the Tiger in the UK?

Joe

[jdad]

I remember reporting a racoon just standing by the side of the road, to the park ranger. He said it had probably had distemper. He said it's very common, in the ones you see during daylight hours.

[AJMD429]

A DNR guy I talked to maybe ten years ago said there'd been a bunch of rabies in raccoons at that point, but I got the impression it was more unusual than I'd previously thought for them to have it.

Around then I saw on the internet a compilation of reported rabies per Indiana county by species, with a map and everything, but couldn't locate anything on the net like that just now.

I did find these tidbits from the DNR website:

If you are the homeowner or tenant, you can buy a live-trap and trap a raccoon, squirrel or opossum on your property without a permit. Learn more about appropriate trapping methods and bait to use. You can find traps at hardware stores and garden centers.
You must then either release the animal within the same county on property where you have permission, or you can kill the animal (in compliance with local ordinances). You must report the capturing or killing of the animal to a conservation officer within 72 hours. You can contact your local conservation officer by calling the local sheriff’s department or call north region headquarters at 765-473-9722 or south region headquarters at 812-837-9536.

[We'd never bothered to report raccoons or possums that get in the hen-house and we terminate, although we'd do so if we suspected rabies.]

I found a dead bird, can I keep it? Should I report it?
No, a bird cannot be kept for personal use, unless it is a non-protected species such as a European starling, English sparrow, or feral pigeon. All other birds are protected by state and/or federal law.A person also cannot posses any parts such as feathers, nests, or eggs without the proper permit. You can donate it to a school, university, or nature center for an educational display, but a permit will need to be obtained from the DNR to do so.Call Law Enforcement to talk to a DNR conservation officer about a special one-time permit to have it mounted and used for an educational display.

[I guess that Baltimore Oriole nest that came down onto our balconey after a storm took a branch off the oak tree can no longer be displayed in our living room without a permit... ]

[RIHMFIRE]

Washington DC is full of them!

[getitdone1]

There's a video of a rabid grey fox attacking a man in a parking lot. See: "Rabid Fox Attack" on YouTube.

Since posting this I've read some about rabies and it's carriers. The saliva from the bite is usually how it's transmitted.

Raccoon, Fox, Skunks, Bats, Dogs and other animals. 1-2 cases of humans having it in USA per year. In 1900 there were over 100 cases.

Several cases of Raccoons with rabies in Central Park, New York City.

Treatment should begin as soon as possible. Once symptoms appear it's too late and death will follow in 2-20 days.

The painfull shots in stomach treatment has been replaced with less painfull shots in the deltoid (shoulder) muscle.

Distemper is a common disease of these animals and can be mistaken for rabies.

Don

[firefuzz]

I don't think it's as big an issue around here as it was when I was a kid. I've always been told that skunks are carriers and seeing a traveling skunk during the heat of the day is not a good sign. My Dad was always pretty much a live and let live unless it's damaging something kind of guy, but a skunk moving in the daytime hours was going to get shot.

Rob

[madman4570]

Hard to tell with those two coons?
Round here if a Fox/Skunk/Coon is around acting highly abnormal it gets shot.(course I live where I can shoot out my window)
Last Fox I shot which was about 5 years ago had come out of our woods at about noon time and was bitting/growling/attacking all the small shrubs right next to our enclosed patio.
Blasted him and called the Game Warden and was told they get a lot of calls like that and if the animal is dead nothing they can due.They wont pick it up. (yep,its dead----took a 3" 12ga 00 buck
Was instructed by Warden to let animal lay there for several hours and dont go near it or let any animals near it. He said that after the animal is dead a while the virus dies? He then said dig a hole back in your woods,gather the fox up with a round pointed shovel dump it in the hole and pour a gallon a Clorax bleach all over the animal/and the shovel section where animal was carried with. Bury it and place several big stones on top.


Let me tell you somthing you really need to be careful of and thats (Bats)
Say your sleeping in the middle of the night and wake up to a screeching noise in the pitch black?
You turn on the light and its a Bat flying around.If you were a sleep be very careful to get that bat and dont destroy its head. American Large Brown Bats have a fairly high rate of being Rabid.
Also when you are sleeping you wouldnt even know if it bit you in like a area of your scalp etc. thats covered by hair or actually about anywhere because their bite mark is so small.They also inject this type numbing saliva compound that masks the pain when being bit(at least that is what my dogs Vet. told me)
She said------Take that dead bat,put it in a sealed plastic bag and put it in the refrigerator and immediately call the State Dept that handles this task of pickup. Probably before you know it a special refrigerated truck will show up and they will take the bat/test it/and immediately report back to you both via a phone call and later a written summary.This was the case at least we had when living in Pa(Daughter always used to leave the sliding glass door open in the summertime at night(no more)


Can still see it now,I heard this scratching sound on my headboard,turned on the light and wham right about in my face flying around is this BIG Bat. ya know like the one on the TV show"the Monsters" Grandpa!

Anyway as its flying down the hall my little schnauzer is chasing it and leaping in the air trying to get it. Finally she gets a hold of it for a split second and the bat screeches and the dog makes a little whimper sound and the bat takes off again till I smack it by now with the tennis racket I finally find.
Next day my dog wouldnt eat and would just lay there on the steps?
Called the Vet and explained (course our dog already had the rabies vaccine.I was going to just trash the bat the night before when I smacked it but somthing told me to save it(but I didnt refrigerate it) They still came with the special truck and got it.(they came 100 miles each way to get it)
My vet said its nothing to screw with,if it did bite someone about a 1 in 10 chance its Rabid(wanna bet your life/lives on it?

[piller]

I have seen only 2 animals ever which I was certain were rabid. Both were skunks and both were out in the middle of the day staggering around as if they had drank a fifth of rotgut. Animal control was called and both times they were rabid. The first was in 1973 and the second in 2004. Down at Richards place in Hondo, there was a raccoon which was acting sick. Richard wanted to have someone shoot it. BrianSh shot it with his .45, and had to put 2 shots through the body to kill it. We looked around, and finally decided it had got into some poison left out for coyotes. The raccoon was not moving much, and seemed sick, but not aggressive, and had no foam around its mouth.

[adirondakjack]

It runs in cycles. Here in upstate NY we had a cycle lasting 3-5 years where raccoons, foxes, skunks, etc were getting rabies and regularly would challenge people in "people" areas in the day time. That is NOT normal behaviour for such animals. My 80+ yr old FIL went to get the mail, came back to the front steps, only to be challenged by a coon at his doorstep. He swung his cane at it, backing it off enough to get inside, and called the troopers. The responding trooper found the coon under the step, still trying to challenge anyone who approached. He popped it with his .40, double bagged it and sent it off to the lab. Rabid!, but we knew that. Otherwise ya nevr see a coon in the daytime in the village.....

But the cycles slack as rabies decimates the popuation, which allows other species to thrive (we were overrun with turkeys after the rabies epidemic as nothing was eating their eggs) and then it pops up agan a few years later.

Bottom line, when an animal that normally avoids people challenges them, especially in the daytime, think rabies. if ya kill it, use latex gloves or plastic bagged hands to bag it, and either call the DEC or dig a hole, burn the carcass in the hole (charcoal lighter or kerosene), and bury it. Be sure to safely dispose of the bags, gloves as well (in the hole, burned with the carcass is my best practice).

[awp101]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaSsAm5j05M

[Ysabel Kid]

Washington DC is full of them!

Bingo!

I have only come across one animal thus infected in my life - a racoon, and I put it down immediately.

[muddydog]

interesting question. more common that you think.

I own a Veterinary Laboratory and just yesterday I visited with one of the administrators of the Kansas State Rabies Laboratory. the KSRL is considered by most to be one of the best Rabies Laboratories in the world.

having been involved in many Rabies Cases myself over the years what he told me is pretty much in line with what I have noticed.

he stated they see between 50 and 350 cases a year.
most are skunks. (shoot them on sight. day or night)

bats, dogs, horses and cats next on the list.

I know of several cases where human issues flared.

1- last summer a woman was attacked and bitten by a Bat in a drug store parking lot. the Bat was tested and tested positive.

2- last year, a Farm Dog became sick and exposed family, DVM staff and Laboratory staff.

3- a number of years ago, one horse caused 17 people to undergo prophylaxis therapy.

side note,
there is an extreme shortage of antisera. in the case of the woman bitten by the bat, she waited 2.5 weeks for her first shot. she was given half doses.

I worked a Rabies case on a human around 1995? here in Oklahoma working at a large hospital. the patient was strapped down, I drew blood in a hazmat w/respirator. just one of many odd cases I have had the opportunity to work on in my medical career.

Rabies is FULL ON in third world countries and I have no doubt that a virus mutation of some sort could one day happen and under the right circumstances could result in a mass epidemic of some variety.

this concerns me.

[madman4570]

interesting question. more common that you think.

I own a Veterinary Laboratory and just yesterday I visited with one of the administrators of the Kansas State Rabies Laboratory. the KSRL is considered by most to be one of the best Rabies Laboratories in the world.

having been involved in many Rabies Cases myself over the years what he told me is pretty much in line with what I have noticed.

he stated they see between 50 and 350 cases a year.
most are skunks. (shoot them on sight. day or night)

bats, dogs, horses and cats next on the list.

I know of several cases where human issues flared.

1- last summer a woman was attacked and bitten by a Bat in a drug store parking lot. the Bat was tested and tested positive.

2- last year, a Farm Dog became sick and exposed family, DVM staff and Laboratory staff.

3- a number of years ago, one horse caused 17 people to undergo prophylaxis therapy.

side note,
there is an extreme shortage of antisera. in the case of the woman bitten by the bat, she waited 2.5 weeks for her first shot. she was given half doses.

I worked a Rabies case on a human around 1995? here in Oklahoma working at a large hospital. the patient was strapped down, I drew blood in a hazmat w/respirator. just one of many odd cases I have had the opportunity to work on in my medical career.

Rabies is FULL ON in third world countries and I have no doubt that a virus mutation of some sort could one day happen and under the right circumstances could result in a mass epidemic of some variety.

this concerns me.

Is it true that say a puppy was born from a mother that is several years old and has always had its rabies vaccine,that between the pup having the initial protection from the mother and its own rabies vaccine within the first year actually that dog(the pup)would be protected with antibodies within itself for that dogs remaining life,and the shots after that really are more of a income generator than actually a real need?

[muddydog]

interesting question. more common that you think.

I own a Veterinary Laboratory and just yesterday I visited with one of the administrators of the Kansas State Rabies Laboratory. the KSRL is considered by most to be one of the best Rabies Laboratories in the world.

having been involved in many Rabies Cases myself over the years what he told me is pretty much in line with what I have noticed.

he stated they see between 50 and 350 cases a year.
most are skunks. (shoot them on sight. day or night)

bats, dogs, horses and cats next on the list.

I know of several cases where human issues flared.

1- last summer a woman was attacked and bitten by a Bat in a drug store parking lot. the Bat was tested and tested positive.

2- last year, a Farm Dog became sick and exposed family, DVM staff and Laboratory staff.

3- a number of years ago, one horse caused 17 people to undergo prophylaxis therapy.

side note,
there is an extreme shortage of antisera. in the case of the woman bitten by the bat, she waited 2.5 weeks for her first shot. she was given half doses.

I worked a Rabies case on a human around 1995? here in Oklahoma working at a large hospital. the patient was strapped down, I drew blood in a hazmat w/respirator. just one of many odd cases I have had the opportunity to work on in my medical career.

Rabies is FULL ON in third world countries and I have no doubt that a virus mutation of some sort could one day happen and under the right circumstances could result in a mass epidemic of some variety.

this concerns me.

Is it true that say a puppy was born from a mother that is several years old and has always had its rabies vaccine,that between the pup having the initial protection from the mother and its own rabies vaccine within the first year actually that dog(the pup)would be protected with antibodies within itself for that dogs remaining life,and the shots after that really are more of a income generator than actually a real need?

several issues come to mind regarding your question.

1st- normal passive and active Ab transfer is random. no rhyme or reason. no 100% rule. every animal is different. some have excellent immune systems where vaccines work like the biomachines they are, some are ploar opposites.

2nd- viruses are constantly changing and morphing. every generation of transfer changes the virus in question in numerous ways.

3rd- routine vaccinations stimulate the system - think of starting that emergency generator once a month as a precaution. but also stimulate the system with new varients that have been found over the years of normal viral generation. think of computer operating systems. Windows 98 vs XP.

4th- there are several diseases for which vaccines have made a wonderful improvement in daily life for humans and pets.

take parvo for instance. Parvo kills animals. survivors are tough boogers. but- did you know that a Parvo Virus B19 is a very common human pathogen that some consider to be a major source of miscarriages and spontaneous abortions in humans?

its one thing if the sole issue at hand is that the animal dies a painful death, while suffering. when the disease is transferable to humans its another story.

rabies for example-
I've been in the observation area and witnessed a human die from Rabies. in my opinion, in todays world- we should not have people dying of a virus such as rabies when a viable correction to the problem has been established for a hundred years.

I, nor any of the veterinarians that are my clients or those who I come into contact with consider vaccines of any kind revenue generators.

people who do not vaccinate for one reason or another, open the cycle not only for their pets, but also as disease perpetuators.

we only know a milliscule about viruses and vaccines.

[20cows]

I had a coon in my barn in the middle of the day last week. He did not offer to run off or even seem to be alarmed at my presence. It didn't go anywhere as I went to retrieve my 10/22 (didn't want to use a 45 on it).

I put it in an old washing machine and closed the lid to remove it from the food chain.

[madman4570]

interesting question. more common that you think.

I own a Veterinary Laboratory and just yesterday I visited with one of the administrators of the Kansas State Rabies Laboratory. the KSRL is considered by most to be one of the best Rabies Laboratories in the world.

having been involved in many Rabies Cases myself over the years what he told me is pretty much in line with what I have noticed.

he stated they see between 50 and 350 cases a year.
most are skunks. (shoot them on sight. day or night)

bats, dogs, horses and cats next on the list.

I know of several cases where human issues flared.

1- last summer a woman was attacked and bitten by a Bat in a drug store parking lot. the Bat was tested and tested positive.

2- last year, a Farm Dog became sick and exposed family, DVM staff and Laboratory staff.

3- a number of years ago, one horse caused 17 people to undergo prophylaxis therapy.

side note,
there is an extreme shortage of antisera. in the case of the woman bitten by the bat, she waited 2.5 weeks for her first shot. she was given half doses.

I worked a Rabies case on a human around 1995? here in Oklahoma working at a large hospital. the patient was strapped down, I drew blood in a hazmat w/respirator. just one of many odd cases I have had the opportunity to work on in my medical career.

Rabies is FULL ON in third world countries and I have no doubt that a virus mutation of some sort could one day happen and under the right circumstances could result in a mass epidemic of some variety.

this concerns me.

Is it true that say a puppy was born from a mother that is several years old and has always had its rabies vaccine,that between the pup having the initial protection from the mother and its own rabies vaccine within the first year actually that dog(the pup)would be protected with antibodies within itself for that dogs remaining life,and the shots after that really are more of a income generator than actually a real need?

several issues come to mind regarding your question.

1st- normal passive and active Ab transfer is random. no rhyme or reason. no 100% rule. every animal is different. some have excellent immune systems where vaccines work like the biomachines they are, some are ploar opposites.

2nd- viruses are constantly changing and morphing. every generation of transfer changes the virus in question in numerous ways.

3rd- routine vaccinations stimulate the system - think of starting that emergency generator once a month as a precaution. but also stimulate the system with new varients that have been found over the years of normal viral generation. think of computer operating systems. Windows 98 vs XP.

4th- there are several diseases for which vaccines have made a wonderful improvement in daily life for humans and pets.

take parvo for instance. Parvo kills animals. survivors are tough boogers. but- did you know that a Parvo Virus B19 is a very common human pathogen that some consider to be a major source of miscarriages and spontaneous abortions in humans?

its one thing if the sole issue at hand is that the animal dies a painful death, while suffering. when the disease is transferable to humans its another story.

rabies for example-
I've been in the observation area and witnessed a human die from Rabies. in my opinion, in todays world- we should not have people dying of a virus such as rabies when a viable correction to the problem has been established for a hundred years.

I, nor any of the veterinarians that are my clients or those who I come into contact with consider vaccines of any kind revenue generators.

people who do not vaccinate for one reason or another, open the cycle not only for their pets, but also as disease perpetuators.

we only know a milliscule about viruses and vaccines.

Thanks Muddydog!
Was just wondering. I do insure all my pets get all regular/prompt vaccines(dogs even get Lyme vaccines)
Only reason I even asked was I remember quite a few years back one of my relatives who was a Molecular Biochemist and studied from ( Penn State/Cornell)and got into a little heated disccusion about the proper timeline/frequency of getting a dog vaccinated for Rabies.
This person was I guess kind of a instrumental player in the Rabies Virus studies/research in the 1960's for it dealing with human vaccines or something to that effect?
Remembering it had something to do with some type of (extensive research/with Rabies Virus Titer molecules or something and its investigation/experimentation)?
Not sure exactly,cause about every 5 minutes when listening to the person on any topic like that I seemed to learn a new word I never heard of before(and they were real words too) Way over my head?

Anyway thanks again for the knowledge!

[FWiedner]

I've walked up on a coon in a trash can close enough to poke it with the barrel of my rifle. All it did was hiss at me. I've walked up on a family of coons feeding on a dish of pet food left out for some lady's kitty, and all they did was just kinda toddle off. Certainly weren't in a rush.

I've stood at the back fence of my yard and fed scraps from a deer I was skinning to a young coyote. No fear there. I was taking a walk around the neighborhood early one morning and had two coyotes come haulin' azz across the road from a cul-de-sac across the way. One disappeared between a couple of houses in the neighborhood, the other stopped about 10 feet away from me and gave me a good lookin' over. Then he just hauled azz after his buddy.

I've come across a couple of rabid skunks. Skunks are usually kinda timid. These were disoriented and pizzed-off. The first one I called animal control. The second one I killed on the spot.

From the description provided, I wouldn't think that any of your animals had rabies, but they might have been sick with 'something'. Maybe they just didn't have a fear of humans.

I've come across many critters in the woods and roaming the neighborhood that will just sit or stand or simply go about their business if you just go about yours.

[jeepnik]

I've only run into one rabid critter. Probably the worst combination. A rabid skunk. It came "into" an organized campground in the middle of the day. That right there set off the alarm bells.

The camp ground had a "host" (sorta a non armed ranger type). Though he tried to shoo it off (a brave act with a skunk), it wouldn't budge. Fortunately it didn't spray (yet) either. An armed ranger (with a 9mm handgun) finally showed up. They cleared folks away and the armed ranger tried to shoot it. Missed several times, and the skunk stayed put and still didn't spray. A second armed ranger (the count of public officials is up to four, as the second armed ranger brought his boss) showed up with a shotgun.

Well, the skunk finally succumbed to a 12 gauge shotgun blast (don't know the shot size). Word of advice, never, never, never shoot a skunk with a shotgun anywhere near anything you want to keep. The spot in which the skunk was situated upon its demise if propably still uninhabitable some twenty years later.

Seriously though, I don't imagine the folks that owned the camping equipment really ever got the smell out. But it pretty much had cleared the area by nightfall.

I must admit, I found it quite entertaining. Oh, by the way, before reenforcement showed up, I had offered to eliminate said skunk with a headshot from scoped bolt action .22 rifle. Apparently, that would have been illegal. I even offered the rifle to the assorted rangers, but they said they weren't sure if it would suffice.

[O.S.O.K.]

If you want to see some rabbid animals just go over to democrat underground and sign up for an account and peruse their posts....

Or so I've heard. I don't want my ISP address associated with that site

[madman4570]

Last night at about 1am woke up to my Lab growling loud and deep,then in between the growling I heard this snoring sound coming from what seemed like to be in my basement?
Grabbed the Colt HBAR and slowly started doing a check.Got to the stairs by this time both dogs are downstairs barking like mad (one at the door and one at the bow window(basement is a walkout basement)
Hit the floodlights on that side and here is this big bear standing on top of a pile of 20 tons of sand I just had delivered few days back.(putting in a large field stone patio)
It just stood there looking toward the door? I got the dogs into the utility room, closed the door came back and set the gun down and grabbed a baseball off the shelf.Flung the door open and yelled at it and threw a fast ball right into its side
It reared up part way spinning around and was gone in the trees.
Let the dogs out of the room,grabbed the HBAR and the male Lab(on a 20ft flexi leash) and went outside (no sign)
Came back in, told the wife " its OK honey, its just a rabid bear"
Could you imagine a rabid bear