reloading question - Crimping?

[jfg_4]

I am new to the reloading game. I bought a used Lee Loadmaster Press from a buddy - the thing is sweet. I cranked out 100 .45acp rounds like nobodies business.

I now have the basic die set for 44-40 and 45-70 (along with the shell holders).

The dies included Full Length Sizing Die, Bullet Seating Die and Powder Through Expanding Die.

My question is - Should I spend the extra 30 bucks and get the factory crimp dies for both calibers? Or will the bullet seating die be enough? Both calibers will be going in lever guns. Lee's book (Modern Reloading) indicates that the factory crimp die is needed in tube fed guns - but I dont know if it is "Really" needed or if he is just trying to sell more stuff. The same book says that usually crimping is done with the bullet seating die.

Thanks all!!

J

[Rube Burrows]

I am new to the reloading game. I bought a used Lee Loadmaster Press from a buddy - the thing is sweet. I cranked out 100 .45acp rounds like nobodies business.

I now have the basic die set for 44-40 and 45-70 (along with the shell holders).

The dies included Full Length Sizing Die, Bullet Seating Die and Powder Through Expanding Die.

My question is - Should I spend the extra 30 bucks and get the factory crimp dies for both calibers? Or will the bullet seating die be enough? Both calibers will be going in lever guns. Lee's book (Modern Reloading) indicates that the factory crimp is needed in tube fed guns - but I ont know if it is "Really" needed or if he is just trying to sell more stuff.


Thanks all!!

J

I found that with my cowboy guns I needed to crimp the cases. In the .38 spl, the lever gun would cycle the rounds but you run the risk of pushing the bullet back into the case. With the pistols.....I had to crimp them to get them to even go in the cylinder.

[RIHMFIRE]

you need to buy the crimp dies....especially for you leverguns, as Rube just stated...
and a proper crimp will get the pressure up to where it needs to be, for good preformance...

I was just looking for a crimp die for my 32WS..

[the telegraphist]

I can only comment on the 44/40 which I reload for prolifically. She needs a moderate crimp, the brass is pretty thin in the neck region, I prefer the roll crimp you get out of the bullet seating die. Have used the factory crimp die with great success, but it does tend to squeeze the brass a shade too much making for some split necks after firing, thus brass longevity is somewhat compromised. So I have gone back to a moderate roll crimp. Too much roll will also mince the case mouth somewhat, so just be careful. Your question, no I would not bother in the 44/40 with the factory crimp die. The 44/40 is not a heavy recoiling round so light to moderate crimp will suffice. One more thing about crimping, just because a little is good does not mean more is better.

I do not reload the 45/70 as I dont at present own one, but she can have substantial recoil so a heavy crimp is probably required. Brass of course is thick in the neck region so she will take a heavy crimp. As to the factory crimp die, possibly will come down to personal preference. Try without first and see how it goes. Others may be along shortly that have more savvy with this cartridge than I.

All the best
Bob.

[Chas.]

I reload .357, 44mag, and .45-70. I shoot more 45-70 than the other 2 combined. I have the factory crimp die for the 44mag but never use it. All my crimping is done with the bullet seating/crimping die. When properly adjusted, it workes great. The problem with the factory crimp die is that if you have a select size bullet that you're wanting to use, the die will resize it down. BTW, the 45-70s I shoot in either a lever gun or revolver so I couldn't stand to have the bullet move during recoil.

[M. M. Wright]

Buy the factory crimp die for the 44-40. Eliminates a lot of feeding problems. The 45-70 can be fine without it but it sure wouldn't hurt. I have the factory crimp dies for about ten or a dozen calibers and love them. The 45 ACP requires a taper crimp, (head spaces on the case mouth) and I don't know if the Lee factory crimp die does this or not.

[1886]

It is best to seat and crimp in separate operations. The Lee FCD for the .44-40 and .45-70 are the rifle, collet type dies. They are great tools. No worries about the die sizing your finish product. 1886.

[Terry Murbach]

you need to buy the crimp dies....especially for you leverguns, as Rube just stated...
and a proper crimp will get the pressure up to where it needs to be, for good preformance...

I was just looking for a crimp die for my 32WS..

THE LEE FCD IN 30-30 WILL WORK HERE TOO.

[J Miller]

I have the Lee FCD for both my 45 Colt and 30-30. Although they both make good crimps, I could have gotten along just fine without them. They are not mandatory in any way shape nor form.

The problem of bullet pushing back into cases with tube magazines is more of a neck tension problem than a crimp problem. I've been shooting .45 Colts and 38s spcls and .357s in lever guns for 25 years and simply do not have that problem with any of my rifles.

Check your expander and make sure it's at least .002" smaller than your bullet and most of the time you will have no trouble at all.
However cases do vary in wall thickness so some may be sized too much and others not enough.

Crimping in a separate step is one way. Crimping at the time of seating is another.
In either case you need to keep your case lengths as close to the same as possible. Only the rifle type LFCD doesn't need the cases to be the same. The pistol type LFCD is no different than the crimp ring in your seating die.

One more thing. A lot has been said about the post crimp sizing ring in the Lee FCD. If that sizes your cases you've done something wrong.
That is just the way it is. Properly sized and belled cases with proper bullets won't contact that sizing ring.

Joe

[RIHMFIRE]

you need to buy the crimp dies....especially for you leverguns, as Rube just stated...
and a proper crimp will get the pressure up to where it needs to be, for good preformance...

I was just looking for a crimp die for my 32WS..

THE LEE FCD IN 30-30 WILL WORK HERE TOO.

I thought about that but was not sure it would work...
Thanks Terry!

[jfg_4]

Once again thanks to all who have replied.

John

[6pt-sika]

Over the years I've loaded for every centerfire cartridge Marlin chambered a production lever action rifle in except the 45-90 and I've roll crimped them all !

And to date I have NEVER used a Lee factory crimp die !

I do won one for the 444 Marlin but it's still NIB !

[cshold]

[AJMD429]

Some 'asides' on the Lee Factory Crimp die.

First off, the "rifle" ones are entirely different than the "pistol" ones, and the "rifle" ones have 'fingers' that a cone forces to actually compress the brass case tip around and into the bullet, just like the factory ones typically do. I really LIKE that method.


The "pistol" ones use a sliding carbide ring, that looks to me like it basically puts a roll-crimp on the case, not all that different than any other crimper (I know it is different, but I'm just saying what it looks like). I don't like the "pistol" ones that much.

HOWEVER, $25 or so Lee will make you a "rifle" type die for most any cartridge, "pistol" cartridged included. I have on order ones in .44 Mag, .45 Colt, and .357 Mag (and will post a 'bench-report' when I get them ).

Here's the link: > http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Custom-Services.html#FCD

A Custom Factory Crimp Die for rifle cartridges can be made for any cartridge with a bullet diameter up to .458 inch and a maximum outer diameter at the base of .580.

We need:

1.Payment of $30.00 ($25.00 + $5.00 processing fee)
2.Dummy cartridge (a bullet seated in an empty case)
Rifle Factory Crimp Dies are cartridge specific and there are a few that cannot be made. Any handgun case that is of a bottleneck design qualifies because the die would have to be made much like the rifle factory crimp dies but we do not make die bodies shorter than that you would find on a .223 Remington. Examples would be the 30 Mauser, 7.62 x 25 and the .357 Sig. The 50 AE also applies because the case is too short for the die bodies available.

One thing you can do for .44 Mag is order a .44-40 FCD (that is considered a "rifle" cartridge and therefore has the 'fingers' type collet), and hand-file the die just a couple thousandths on the base-end, and it will put a nice factory-crimp on your .44 Mag cases. I don't have a .44-40 gun, so don't know if my so-modifying the die would make it unuseable for .44-40 (I'd think it would just have a slightly longer crimped-portion of the case).

Good Luck whatever you decide. You won't find any two other reloaders do it the same ways, and often they'll insist that their way is the 'only' way that works, too...

Just don't ever double-charge, double-bullet, or use the wrong powder, and about anything else works ok.

[Griff]

You do not need to buy the Lee FCD; unless you don't want to take the time or make the effort to properly load (read craft) ammo.

IMO, the Lee FCD is simply a shortcut to avoid trimming cases, with the millions of rounds produced daily this style crimp allows the ammo manufacturers skip that step and save time.

Over use will shorten case life by creasing case mouths unnecessarily. I "roll-my-own" to save money and to craft better ammo than that produced by the factories. Simple instructions to properly rollcrimp: Proper Rollcrimp Adjustment.

[piller]

I use the Factory Crimp Die for my .45-70 just because I started that way. Never a problem one. No bullets jumping forward in the case, nor being pushed back.

[Sarge]

"A.C.E."

Always
Crimp
Everything

[6pt-sika]

"A.C.E."

Always
Crimp
Everything

Nope !

I don't crimp for my bolt actions nor do I crimp for any of my Ruger #1's other then the 375 H&H MAG and the 416 REM MAG . No need in these rifles !

[Leverdude]

I have a LFC die for most everything I load. But I rarely use them anymore. The acceptions being bullets with no canalure or some hotter loads. I'll try it looking to improve acuracy as well sometimes.
But, I'v decided that consistant case length is critical when I really care so I tend to keep them trimmed. As long as theyre the same length & the bullet has a canalure in the right place I'v never had an issue seating & crimping in one step. Even 32/20, 44/40 etc. As long as the cases are consistant I just drop a charge & seat a bullet. I'll still buy one for any new calibers I get, but I dont think its needed for every load every time.

So I guess I'm saying to buy them.

[piller]

Slight drift here, but I don't crimp bullets in my bolt actions. Never needed to, but I don't have a bolt gun more powerful than my .30-06. I always crimp my levergun bullets with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. As said above, that is how I started and never had a problem because of it.

[hightime]

I didn't ask, but thanks, I'm listening.

Owen

[Sarge]

"A.C.E."

Always
Crimp
Everything

Nope !

I don't crimp for my bolt actions nor do I crimp for any of my Ruger #1's other then the 375 H&H MAG and the 416 REM MAG . No need in these rifles !

The only bolt action here is a 30-06 and ammo loaded for it is also used in any of several 7400s, that show up here in the fall. Crimping eliminates the possibility of 'wrong' ammo in either of them and it groups as well after the Lee FCD is applied, as it does without it.

I would definitely crimp for any dangerous game rifle, bolt action or not.

[J Miller]

As a rule I do not crimp bullets used in bolt rifle cartridges that do not have a cannelure.
If the bullet has a cannelure and it lines up with the case mouth when the bullet is seated I might or might not roll it in. Usually I don't.
The only bolt rifle ammo that receives a crimp is military ammo such as the 7.62 Nato or the .303 British using military weight FMJ bullets. This is because that ammo is loaded to military specs as close as I can get.
Ammo intended for these rifles using bullets with no crimp grove is not crimped. Neck tension does it all.

All bullets for lever action rifles are crimped. That is where my one and only Lee FCD (30-30) comes in. I use it to crimp cast bullets. It does really good there. I'm not positive it's needed, but then again I have little experience loading cast bullets in the 30-30. In the future I might even just quit using it.

All handgun ammo is crimped. Especially if it's intended for use in a lever gun. Either a roll crimp or a taper crimp, depends on the bullets.

All ammo for semi auto bottom feeding jam-a-matics are taper crimped, no exceptions.

There you have it, that's my way of doing it. YMMV

Joe

PS; I forgot to add that all of my 30-30, 308, 303, 30-06 cases are trimmed, and internally and externally chamfered as part of the case prep process. This is what allows me to use the crimp ring in my seating die to good effect. A little extra work makes a much better product.

[Sarge]

Joe

PS; I forgot to add that all of my 30-30, 308, 303, 30-06 cases are trimmed, and internally and externally chamfered as part of the case prep process. This is what allows me to use the crimp ring in my seating die to good effect. A little extra work makes a much better product.

That is a critical component of success in reloading bottleneck rifle rounds, and one I neglected to mention. Any discussion of crimping them should include it. Thanks for adding it.

I used to get occasional 'wrinkled' cases when loading the 30-30. Trimming to length, after each resizing and the chamfering operations Joe mentioned, along with use of the FCD die, totally eliminated all problems associated with loading this cartridge. The ammo is more accurate to boot.

[Hobie]

Joe

PS; I forgot to add that all of my 30-30, 308, 303, 30-06 cases are trimmed, and internally and externally chamfered as part of the case prep process. This is what allows me to use the crimp ring in my seating die to good effect. A little extra work makes a much better product.

That is a critical component of success in reloading bottleneck rifle rounds, and one I neglected to mention. Any discussion of crimping them should include it. Thanks for adding it.

I used to get occasional 'wrinkled' cases when loading the 30-30. Trimming to length, after each resizing and the chamfering operations Joe mentioned, along with use of the FCD die, totally eliminated all problems associated with loading this cartridge. The ammo is more accurate to boot.

I agree, trimming is the key to consistent crimps, roll or taper.

[Griff]

...I forgot to add that all of my 30-30, 308, 303, 30-06 cases are trimmed, and internally and externally chamfered as part of the case prep process. This is what allows me to use the crimp ring in my seating die to good effect. A little extra work makes a much better product.

That is a critical component of success in reloading bottleneck rifle rounds, and one I neglected to mention. Any discussion of crimping them should include it. Thanks for adding it.
I used to get occasional 'wrinkled' cases when loading the 30-30. Trimming to length, after each resizing and the chamfering operations Joe mentioned, along with use of the FCD die, totally eliminated all problems associated with loading this cartridge. The ammo is more accurate to boot.

I agree, trimming is the key to consistent crimps, roll or taper.

I agree your trimming ain't complete until you champher, in & out. Howver, trimming is seldom necessary on straight wall pistol case and a ffew straight-wall rifle cases as well. Extremely important on almost all bottle-neck rounds. And case length should be checked regularly on even those cases that don't "grow".