OT: Italian Guns to be Manufactured with RFID Technology

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:15 pm

http://www.securitymanagement.com/news/ ... ogy-008865

Well, they say it's for inventory control. BS knee deep I call it. But this marks the end of any new Italian guns for me. Won't be a part of this at all.
I suppose you can remove them but just how long till US companies follow suite and the Feds make it illegal to remove the chips?

Nope, the end is near.

Joe

crs · Post by **crs** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:40 pm

Good to know, Thanks, Joe.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:44 pm

I think I'm goin' to put another layer of foil in my ball cap...

Come on Joe, don't have a heart attack!

Is this something new? No. Is it relatively new as applied to firearms? Yes. Can it be used to track the guns now? No. Might miniaturization allow that in the future? Yes. Can you still remove them? Yes. Are this things as aesthetically displeasing as locks and lawyer switches? Yes. Will I buy such? No.

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:53 pm

There was some comment on the net about this. The RFID is used to track the gun for inventory purposes and can be scanned in the plant in the warehouses without opening the packages they are in. They have been doing it for several years. The tracking device used to read the chip must be just a few inches away to work. The chip provides no power or signal and at this time cannot be tracked from space. They claim if you don't want the chip(s) just remove it as they are usually hot glued under the grip and come off fairly easily. It was claimed this technology is being used in a lot of different industries for inventory control and tracking on all sorts of things. I am sure it can change down the road. Chiappi uses them on their HI Points and other guns in Italy. Maybe this explains the bar codes on my back. Good Luck. ATB.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:01 pm

RFID is really easy to defeat. Info on creating a localized EMP device that will kill an RFID within a couple hundred feet is readily available.

I'm not going to sweat it.

My Cat(s) have operable RFIDs, but nothing else will...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:50 pm

Was told by my Gun Dealer buddy starting probably by next year(all NEW MFG Handguns as of 2012 sold in US will have them)(micro printed?)
Also said with much other red tape new cost to being passed on to the customers that handguns will become so expensive most wont by them.???? Value of used ones will go up and up?
Anyone else hearing this?

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:21 pm

J Miller wrote:http://www.securitymanagement.com/news/ ... ogy-008865

Well, they say it's for inventory control. BS knee deep I call it. But this marks the end of any new Italian guns for me. Won't be a part of this at all.
I suppose you can remove them but just how long till US companies follow suite and the Feds make it illegal to remove the chips?

Nope, the end is near.

Joe

Better double up on the tinfoil, Joe.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:RFID is really easy to defeat. Info on creating a localized EMP device that will kill an RFID within a couple hundred feet is readily available.

I'm not going to sweat it.

My Cat(s) have operable RFIDs, but nothing else will...

+1, +1, +1, +0

Our cats are 'barn' cats and are pretty much on their own other than each year they get to choose between two types of shots to prevent them from getting rabies.*

* (if they get too-wild-to-catch, they get the 'lifetime' version

).

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:30 pm

As long as we know where they are and how to remove them (and as long as they're internal and not an eyesore) I don't care. What worries me more is that these things will slip into our new guns covertly. Or even worse, be required to be installed if you send a gun for service.

There's no end to what the gun haters will foist upon us if we let them.

Oly

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:36 pm

So what are we saying? That now I'll have to disassemble every new gun I buy and inspect them to see if all the parts are there or if anything is strange or doesn't quite belong?

Oh, wait...

I already do that.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:58 pm

I've got plenty of old guns.... don't need to worry about any tracking chips.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:27 am

a good strong magnet should screw them up!

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:39 am

My daughter brought her GPS up here so I now know my exact location as I am typing this - well a foot to my right - and I keep it listed there - well a foot south of that so I now know right where I am. But it is early and I haven't had my coffee yet but I will be somewhere else later. If I find any chips I will put them in an old Cutty Sark bottle and float them down the aqueduct. Pretty sure that would be some code violation though. Come to think of it I have never had Cutty Sark. Thanks Joe. I am going to put that on my list.

gak · Post by **gak** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:15 am

And many have said in the past Ubertis and Chiappas weren't good investments

Always a nice gun anyway, my Cimarron Model P is looking particularly good right now!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:54 am

My concerns are not because of the inventory reasons or that the chips are just glued on. Or that they can be removed.
But just like seat belts; back in the mid 1950s cars did not come with them. Then in the late 50s they became optional, then in the early 60s standard equipment. Then the govt got involved and use of these items is mandatory.

The chips will become mandatory as well once all the gun makers start using them. The fears of technology being used to watch and track owners of such equipped guns is valid in my opinion.

That's all I'm saying. Currently the chips are removable and if I found one in a gun I bought it would be removed immediately.

Joe

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:11 pm

Before everyone gets their panties in a twist, one must understand the technology. Current 'long range' RFID tags can be read in free space up to about 60 feet, 40 feet is the average. Tags on metal objects, depending upon exact location vs the transmitter can be from 25 feet to only a few inches. Big brother won't be able to track your RFID tag on a firearm unless he's standing right next to you (and then he already knows you're there).

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:52 pm

Old Savage wrote: Come to think of it I have never had Cutty Sark. .

You havent missed a thing. I keep a bottle under the sink at all times in case the drain gets plugged up.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:54 pm

Your prognostications on the internet are a hell of a lot easier for the gooberment to track than any chip they might put in a gun. And, I'm sure you are already aware, they are doing that tracking right now, no need to wait for advances in chip technology.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:20 pm

Aw well, I should know better than to post things "I" find interesting and worrisome. Seems you all know better and what I've watched happen since 1963 is just a figment of my imagination.

Someday I'll learn.

Joe

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:21 pm

jnyork wrote:Your prognostications on the internet are a hell of a lot easier for the gooberment to track than any chip they might put in a gun. And, I'm sure you are already aware, they are doing that tracking right now, no need to wait for advances in chip technology.

Well that's a good point but the "slippery slope" argument is well tested and proven also. Let's face it, the Western world is run by "progressives" and most of us here are regressives. It sucks, and no Joe, it's not a pigment of yer machinations.

I wont stop buying Eyetallian arms, but I'll look for those daggum chips and smash 'em.

Oly

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:56 pm

olyinaz wrote:
jnyork wrote:Your prognostications on the internet are a hell of a lot easier for the gooberment to track than any chip they might put in a gun. And, I'm sure you are already aware, they are doing that tracking right now, no need to wait for advances in chip technology.
Well that's a good point but the "slippery slope" argument is well tested and proven also. Let's face it, the Western world is run by "progressives" and most of us here are regressives. It sucks, and no Joe, it's not a pigment of yer machinations.

I wont stop buying Eyetallian arms, but I'll look for those daggum chips and smash 'em.

Oly

Oly,
Just remember to take them out of the gun before you smash 'em.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:33 pm

J Miller wrote:Aw well, I should know better than to post things "I" find interesting and worrisome. Seems you all know better and what I've watched happen since 1963 is just a figment of my imagination.

Someday I'll learn.

Joe

I'm not saying not to worry about Big Brother invading our privacy. He's neck deep in our lives now, more so than most of you know. I just commented that the current state of the art for RFIDs is limited to close range identification which is primarily for inventory management, not tracking after sale. The Gooberment doesn't need that because you have to register the sale when you buy your firearms. With your DL and/or SSN tacked to the sale, they can keep tabs on you just fine.

In fact, if you're worried about Big Brother knowing where you are in real time, dump the cellphone (even the non GPS versions can be triangulated), rotate your license plates and paint your car in secret every 2 blocks (traffic cams), dump any credit cards and loyalty cards you own (they provide a detailed 'way you live' picture), stay out of any stores, banks, govt buildings, sporting events, etc. (surveillance cameras), change your cloths and facial appearance every few blocks (surveillance cameras and facial recognition s/w), and don't adhere to any repeatable pattern in where you go, when you go there, and/or how you get there (basically you can't have a job). And that will only help if they aren't actively looking for you. If they are, then its only a matter of time. In short, welcome to the modern world.

I spent 41½ years in the defense business producing products to provide 'insight' to the National Command Authority and it's intelligence agencies and you wouldn't believe what capabilities they already have and the information on file on everyone already. And they can obtain additional updated details with just a few minutes work and, if they decide to take an interest in you, they can focus a wide variety of information types to virtually predict where you'll go, what you'll do, and when you next need to pee. Our best defense is that there are over 300 million of us here and if they don't have a reason to watch, they concentrate on those they've been directed to focus on.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:34 pm

Well Steve, if I ever had a doubt, it's gone now. After reading your post I am 100% convince I was born 100 years too late.

Yeah, 100 years 100 YEARS TO darn LATE!

Also consider the fact we are on a gun forum which the leftists in this govt hate and we really are being incognito ......

Joe

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:19 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:I've got plenty of old guns.... don't need to worry about any tracking chips.

Ha! +2,000---------------Sixgun

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:01 am

I was reading a pretty good murder mystery and it delved into Big Brother's current ability to track us using chips like that. Except it wasn't really Big Brother, the Government. It was data collection for commercial purposes. They were trying to follow an agent that went missing, and they punched up credit card data and found where she bought gas that day.

Then they went into another level, which some RFID type sensor was imbedded in her debit card or ID card. Every time it came close to one of their stations it made a record of it. They were able to track her movements down to a city block and just a couple of minutes old. Plus they tracked her cell phone. Also they got the whereabouts of her car since it was a city with automatic toll reading.

I don't know if it was BS or not but I'm pretty sure the technology exists. You might have to be in a big urban area to pass significant numbers of stations but who knows. If you're serious about not being tracked you have to get rid of more than your guns. Cell phone, GPS, credit cards, etc.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:44 am

I remove RFID devices from items I purchase and take them to WalMart and re-stick them to the underside of store shelving. Maybe they do nothing, maybe they are an electronic wrench in the gears.

Noah

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:51 am

They already know where you are and what you got. Hide in the open and let them realize the magnitude of the problem.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:48 am

El Chivo wrote:I was reading a pretty good murder mystery and it delved into Big Brother's current ability to track us using chips like that. Except it wasn't really Big Brother, the Government. It was data collection for commercial purposes. They were trying to follow an agent that went missing, and they punched up credit card data and found where she bought gas that day.

Then they went into another level, which some RFID type sensor was imbedded in her debit card or ID card. Every time it came close to one of their stations it made a record of it. They were able to track her movements down to a city block and just a couple of minutes old. Plus they tracked her cell phone. Also they got the whereabouts of her car since it was a city with automatic toll reading.

I don't know if it was BS or not but I'm pretty sure the technology exists. You might have to be in a big urban area to pass significant numbers of stations but who knows. If you're serious about not being tracked you have to get rid of more than your guns. Cell phone, GPS, credit cards, etc.

This isn't fiction, its fact. That's how those cards you just wave at the reader in the store work. Wave it at the sensor and it knows everything about you. But again, remember that the range of the current technology is limited.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:22 am

Sieg Heil, Everybody!

It's only a matter of time now. It'll be just like the serial numbers - illegal to
tamper with. And once it is, you can bet your last d0llar a scanner of some sort
will be standard-issue for all police officers.

The laws that require this will be passed very quietly - just like the ones that
require a "signature" on the copies of hi-end color copiers, the ones that put a
black box in your car, and the ones that put a GPS chip in your cell phone. No
opt-out clauses, either - they'll be required by law.

Let's hope that they don't put 'em in ammunition.

-Stretch

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:58 pm

Back in the day when I worked in heavy industry in Corporate America, I made a practice of regularly placing my CCs on top of one of dozens of large induction motors in the plant, ranging from 100 HP to 2500 HP. Smaller motors didn't work as well. Doing so "fried" the magnetic strip and forced merchant clerks to key in the number by hand. Nothing could be saved on the strip and uploaded/downloaded by the CC company during transactions because the formatting of the strip was magnetically wiped.

Nowadays, I don't care if they know I buy most of my fuel from Sheetz or Country Fair so I just swipe the card.

I generally stay away from rewards cards, except for the new Sheetz "My Card" which I only use when buying fuel, NOTHING in the store. I get 3 cents off each gallon, and they get no other info on me that they would not already have from the CC for the purchase itself.

Noah

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:42 pm

What is the difference between cynicism and paranoia?

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:51 pm

BAGTIC wrote:What is the difference between cynicism and paranoia?

It isn't paranoia if it's real.

Noah

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:34 pm

No different than the theft prevention chips in lots of merchandise. That's what causes the alarm to go off when somebody walks out of walmart without them deactivating the thing.....

News flash, not really a big deal, nor is the use of 3-D bar codes laser etched on parts to insure the main parts stay with the right gun.....

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:43 pm

So far no one has mentioned any concern about a completely legal way that commercial companies are tracking people real time and its been going on for years. I'm betting that many of you even have these right now. The authorities can use these companies' products to gain easy access to the real time information they receive.

Yep, GM's OnStar and the LoJack theft systems are in vehicles right now and can be used to track you without you knowing it. Not only can they track your movements, but get ready for this ........... they can also listen in on your conversations while you're inside your vehicle and you'll never even know its happened!!! Bet you didn't see that one coming did ya?

Even though I have GM vehicles, I won't put OnStar in one just for that reason.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:49 pm

I did know that, and I will not own a vehicle with it either.

Joe

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:31 pm

I didn't know that LoJack can listen. Considering where the one in one of my vehicles is located, I wouldn't want to listen. Sometimes it has an extremely gassy teenager above it.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:20 pm

We're all online, and most of us use windows. End of story.

In the end, I'm not hiding, and can't anyway. I am pretty sure I'm not important enough to have anybody spend resources on me in a country of 318,000 people.

If they want me, I'm easy to find. Heck, I got a deputy Sheriff who can see my house from his front porch, and I KNOW his lappie can see my wifi network (I can see his), so with the right warrants, he could keylog my machine (could be doing it now, LOL)

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:54 pm

(psst...Joe....this entire site is nothing but a ruse by the NSA to keep track of YOU personally.....)

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:34 am

BAGTIC wrote:What is the difference between cynicism and paranoia?

Just being paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

Anyway, the concept of paranoia with respect to the subject at hand does not exist. Your fears are legitimate and justified by experience and circumstances.

Cynicism would be the acceptance of that situation as an unchangeable fact of life.

IMHO

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:21 am

OnStar bugs me too and I wont own it. In fact, the service played a key role in the recent movie "Horrible Bosses" and it was definitely a Big Brother kind of thing. Not cool in my opinion.

Oly

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:39 am

BlaineG wrote:(psst...Joe....this entire site is nothing but a ruse by the NSA to keep track of YOU personally.....)

Ah ha! That explains why my wife is always checking to see that I'm on here.
I'll bet NSA stands for "National Spouse Administration".

Joe

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:21 pm

I have noticed that a lot of people who obsess over people spying on them flatter themselves. I think they like believing that they are worth spying on. Most everything THEY want to kinow about us they already know. The rest they can find out regardless of what we may do trying to prevent it. Worrying about it is about as productive as spinning one's wheel in deep mud. Makes a lot of noise, attracts a lot of attention, makes for a messy life but doesn't produce much progress.