Need Reloading Advice: Crimp on 44 Mag. loads

[C. Cash]

I am frustrated with what may be a simple reloading problem that I cannot figure out. When I go crimp the 44 Mag. brass in my new RCBS carbide seat/crimp die(on Rockchucker press), it just rounds off one side with a roll crimp and the other side stays pretty much straight. You can see that the die is swaging that side but it does not curve in for a roll crimp. This same side that does not roll over seems to pull the brass downward also to where the case mouth appears uneven on a loaded round. As far as I can tell the bullet is straight in the case. I can put up pics to help but does anyone know offhand what my problem might be? I screwed the die into my Lee hand press also and I get the same thing.

I am loading the Mt. Baldy 250 gr. Keith bullet in .431 diameter. Brass has been trimmed to length with the Lee hand trimmer using the case length gauge. The belled cases look normal.

Any ideas??????? What the heck am I missing here?

Thanks for any help.

[homefront]

No expert here, but it sounds like a bum die .

[C. Cash]

That was my first reaction too. I procured another seat/crimp die because the one before did the same thing. What's the possibility of 2 consecutive dies doing this? Still possible, and still the most likely but just wondering if there might be some other simple cause of this happening that I cannot fathom?

[claybob86]

You could call RCBS. The few times I've had issues with their equipment, they've bent over backwards to help me out.

[C. Cash]

Thanks fellas. Yep...gonna see if they can give me a hand with this, what I should have done in the first place I reckon. God Bless and thanks again, Chris

[Cast Bullet Hunter]

Try applying a little more crimp and you will find that it evens out. The weaker side (thinner) of the case gives way first allowing the crimp bevel to push the case even more to that side. rimping slighly more forces the case to center in the die.

A second possibility is your brass has uneven mouths and need to be trimmed to square them up.

[Noah Zark]

The chances of two seating/crimping dies being messed up are too great for the die to be the root cause here.

Is the seating punch the correct one to match the bullet tip profile?

Are you seating the bullet such that the case mouth is in line with the crimp groove?

If the bullet seat punch is mismatched to the bullet profile, or if the bullet has no cannelure or groove to receive a crimp, or if the case mouth is not in alignment with the crimp groove, a roll crimp will tend to be asymmetrical as you describe.

Noah

[Buffboy]

I'm a little baffled as to why this is occurring but another thing to check: is there some dirt or wear on your shellholder that could be causing the case to sit crooked as it's compressed in the die?

[C. Cash]

The chances of two seating/crimping dies being messed up are too great for the die to be the root cause here.

Is the seating punch the correct one to match the bullet tip profile?

Are you seating the bullet such that the case mouth is in line with the crimp groove?

If the bullet seat punch is mismatched to the bullet profile, or if the bullet has no cannelure or groove to receive a crimp, or if the case mouth is not in alignment with the crimp groove, a roll crimp will tend to be asymmetrical as you describe.

Noah

Thanks! It's the flat punch which I have thought is right for the Keith style bullets. I've taken the punch out completely and tried it that way as simply a crimp die. The case has one side crimped on the other straighter and slightly pulled back(from eyeballing it). You can see that the straighter side is having the metal worked/swaged down by the die, just no rolling over of the case mouth. I have cranked at way down to wildly accentuate what the crimp is doing, and it's just a more severe version of what's going on.....balloons on one side and the other side stays straight. Yes...these are Keith bullets and have a large crimp groove. The cases should be straight as they have been trimmed in Lee hand trimmer. Thanks again for the input fellas.

[C. Cash]

Buffboy, I will change out the shell holder to see if that is influencing this problem. Thanks!

[Noah Zark]

Here's a longshot, Cash -- Remove the seat/crimp die and look up inside it with a light to see if there's a buildup of lead shavings, cast bullet lube, or both. Use a piece of stiff wire to remove any foreign stuff inside there that's relatively incompressible and affecting the crimp.

I recall have a buildup of Lyman sizer lube in my 357 Magnum seater die and throwing a funky crimp into the cartridges.

Worth a look, but it doesn't explain why a second die did the same thing.

Noah

[J Miller]

I have had this happen with .45 Colts. Usually with bullets not having a crimp grove that I crimped after seating. The only cure I know of is to crank the die down and add more crimp.

Back the die body out and seat a bullet so the top of the crimp grove is even with the case mouth.

Back the seating stem out all the way and then run the cartridge up into the die body. Run the die body down till you feel the crimp ring hit the case mouth. Then add a half turn and run the cartridge back into it. Repeat as needed until you get a good solid crimp.
After you get the crimp you want, run the seating stem back down on the bullet and try another round. That should do it. You might need to fine tune it a bit, but it shouldn't take much.

You're looking for a crimp like the one on the right. It was produced with my RCBS seating die.

Joe

[C. Cash]

Joe,

I'll try that as well and thanks for the photos. I will try and get a photo of what is happening to mine, if these remedies don't work. Appreciate the input fellas!

[Ben_Rumson]

After you have made the crimp have you tried backing the cartridge out a tad and rotating it a half a turn & then pushing it back up in the die for another go at crimping..?

[J Miller]

After you have made the crimp have you tried backing the cartridge out a tad and rotating it a half a turn & then pushing it back up in the die for another go at crimping..?

Just another thought. If you do as Ben has suggested and it corrects the problem, you might check for an out of alinement press ram. I've shipped both my RCBS presses back to the factory because of them being worn enough to be out of alinement.

Joe

[C. Cash]

After you have made the crimp have you tried backing the cartridge out a tad and rotating it a half a turn & then pushing it back up in the die for another go at crimping..?

Hi Ben,

Yes, I thought of that and have tried rotating the case 1/2 turn to crimp the other side, but to no avail. This is strange as it should work this way. Perhaps the non crimp side gets deformed in the initial trip up the die, to where when you turn it 1/2 turn it will not roll down as it should. Dunno Gonna try to figure this out again now and will get back with you guys.

Joe, thought of that too and put the die into my Lee Hand Press. Same story.

Thank you guys!

[Charles]

My best guess is your case mouths are uneven and need to be trimed to square them up.

[C. Cash]

Well, tried the various remedies and it looks like it's just more of the same. My digital camera won't focus on a close up shot of the brass....just blurrs out when I get close. I think that maybe we have a rare instance of both dies being bad. My 356 Win. rounds come out nice when loading on this press,, crimp included. I will give RCBS a call and send them back(the dies), see what they say. Thanks for all the input fellas. I'll keep you updated.

[Griff]

Sounds to me like the die body may be too large to hold the case and allow crimping action. There is always a little "slop" in the case to seating die dimension, but it sounds like one side of the case is being pushed over to the other side, and you're getting an uneven pressure at the crimp ring inside the die body. Only way I know to check yourself is to make a casting of the inside of the die body and mic it. Does it do this with any other bullets?

Agree, call RCBS and describe the problem to them. If your shell holder is clean, no lead shavings under the rim to offset the case, the inside of the die is clean, or using the same press you don't have alignment issues, sounds like a bad die. Anything's possible.

Also, for good crisp clear photos of small parts, I take a photo at the closest distance my digital will focus at, then crop it in my photo program. Usually comes out good. I.e.:

[runfiverun]

just my 02
but you may need to taper the case just abit
you may have out of round brass
and maybe seating the boolit just a hair deeper
like the one in the picture
my rcbs & lee do this same thing with thick [s-line] brass
unless i get the boolit set right to the top of the crimp groove

[C. Cash]

Sounds to me like the die body may be too large to hold the case and allow crimping action. There is always a little "slop" in the case to seating die dimension, but it sounds like one side of the case is being pushed over to the other side, and you're getting an uneven pressure at the crimp ring inside the die body. Only way I know to check yourself is to make a casting of the inside of the die body and mic it. Does it do this with any other bullets?

Agree, call RCBS and describe the problem to them. If your shell holder is clean, no lead shavings under the rim to offset the case, the inside of the die is clean, or using the same press you don't have alignment issues, sounds like a bad die. Anything's possible.

Also, for good crisp clear photos of small parts, I take a photo at the closest distance my digital will focus at, then crop it in my photo program. Usually comes out good. I.e.:

Bingo Griff! The amount of slop between the case and die body is astounding. You can wiggle the case mouth from side to side with the case fully inside the die body. So, now to figure out if the die is vastly oversize or if WW brass is undersize. This looks to be the cause, but will report back with measurements tonight. Hard to imagine an oversize die....undersize from tool wear but not oversize. Well, at least this is starting to make sense! Thank you much fellas.

[C. Cash]

Just did a little measuring. The sized case is about .451 in diameter while the inside of the seat/crimp die is .462. According to my Speer manual my cases should be more like .457" on the outside. Does this sound like normal variance? You can wobble the case inside the die a pretty good amount, and move the move the case mouth side to side with the brass inside.

[claybob86]

Checked a couple of mine. The sized cases are .448 - .449. Fired cases are .459 - .460. Can't find my dies right now, not unpacked from last move yet.

[Noah Zark]

Just did a little measuring. The sized case is about .451 in diameter while the inside of the seat/crimp die is .462. According to my Speer manual my cases should be more like .457" on the outside. Does this sound like normal variance? You can wobble the case inside the die a pretty good amount, and move the move the case mouth side to side with the brass inside.

That's a difference of only 0.011", or about the thickness of three sheets of 20 lb copy paper; each sheet being about 0.0035" thick.

I dunno, but I'd suspect that it would take a lot more than 5 and one-half thousandths on a side to cause your crimp problems, Cash.

Noah

[C. Cash]

Remeasured with another caliper which seems to be more on, and got more along the lines of Claybob as for unsized: .449 for unsized so my brass is okay and .460 for the inside of the die. Same .011 difference though so that is my slop factor. Doesn't seem like much indeed. What is funny is that you can percievably move the case mouth side to side as described. All still somewhat of a mystery, but I think this is the right track. Hopefully RCBS will have some answers too. Thanks guys!