50-110 barrel liner questions winchester 1886

[Mike8623]

I want to say right off the bat that the projects I do are on parts that I have put together from deals I come across from time to time...I would not consider altering an old complete Winchester rifle.

Winter is coming and it's time to get your projects lined up and thought out:

I have a old winchester 1886 40-82 barrel that is shot out and in poor condition.....I have never done a relined barrel and thought this barrel might be a good candidate for a 50-110 reline but I need to gather some information before attempting......so I thought I'd pick the minds of those that have gone before me. The barrel is .940 at the breech tapering to .810 at the muzzle. The liner is .688.......If I'm correct I will have to rebore the barrel to about .689-690 in order to get the liner to just fit in. If I do this it doesn't leave much of the old barrel, about .122, if you consider the muzzle end dimensions.....Is this the way to do this or should the liner be turned down and if the liner is be turned down........about what diameter would you folks consider correct. ( taking into consideration the dimensions of the cartridge including rim diameter and the strength of the old barrel versus that of the new liner)

Next.........I assume that the rebore or drilling will take out the complete chamber and leave the same diameter hole throughout the entire barrel, I summise that you insert the liner through the entire length of the barrel and then trim and turn the entire barrel to where the barrel and liner are one and at the length desired (maybe have to chase some threads here, on the breech, and do a little barrel setback to get right head spacing)............then re-chamber the barrel and liner as one and finish crowning the muzzle.

I also have read about heating the liner and inserting it in the bored barrel versus epoxy or duraglas gel............what are the thoughts here

Does all this sound right or am I on the wrong trail..........please give my your thoughts and or insight on this and your past experiences.

[Mike D.]

A .40-82 with a bad bore can be rebored and rechambered to .50 EX, but there are other alterations that must be done to the gun to allow the fat cartridge to function through the action. Such a project is doable, but for safety's sake you might consider having a new barrel made that is the correct dimensions.

[Mike8623]

I appreciate the comment Mike, I am aware of the modifications needed on the 1886 to alter to the 50 cal. I believe that the ready-made barrels out there such as Green Mountain have just about or the same specs. as an original barrel, or at least they have some of the some specs. in 50-110.

I'd sure appreciate some info from folks that have done this before and are on point as to my first posting. I've never done a barrel reline and just looking forward to doing one and learning something new

[Sixgun]

A

[Mike8623]

Guys i do appreciate all comments. I have done 3 of the 1886 to 50-110 conversions, and turned, chambered and headspaced all the barrels just fine, even some set triggers basically from scratch. I finished 4 complete years including 4 summers at Lassen gunsmithing school under Dunlap when he was there....I just never got around to relining a barrel.........while i'm not the brightest or most accomplished guy around.........I'd sure like to learn a little more and do one of these.........I'm always looking to learn and keep busy.

I would sure like to hear from those of you that have done this and your insight. Please guys let's get a conversation going on the ins and outs of relining a barrel.

[Nicknack]

Gday Mike I had an old Winchester Low Wall relined to it's original 32-20 bore with a T J enterprises reline tube, what the gunsmith did to get the head space set right was to bore out the rifle barrel,then cut the chamber in the reline tube before fitting, screw in the barrel, then with a head space gauge chambered in the new reline chamber slide the liner in place down to the bolt face .He sets the reline tube with Locktight and it will never move.
Regards Dallas Australia

[Mike8623]

Thanks Nicknak..........I understand what you had done.........and chambering the liner before insertion into the barrel.......I was thinking of afixing the liner into the barrel where it secure......by whatever method or substance you have and after curing facing off both ends in the lathe so that the liner is flush and most unnoticeable then retaking your measurements for the shank length since you will have taken a few thous. off the breech then as in a barrel setback chase the threads just a tad and turn the shoulder down to the correct length and rechamber and headspace. the epoxy should be more than enough to hold the liner to the barrel unless you get carried away with the feed rate on the chamber reamer.....You can then recut the three notches at the breech using the old ones as guides.

What do you think guys...........let's talk about this, I especially would like to hear about heating the liner and inserting it versus the epoxy.

Surely someone out there must have done this..........how about sharing your experiences.

[earlmck]

Hey Mike, I can't add a thing to the reline discussion, but I'm glad you got it going. What I am going to do is try to talk my friendly local gunsmith into doing a reline for me (he has all the right tools). So if you get some good info and insights going, then I'll print it off and take it along to show him. And that'll be my winter project: talk somebody else into doing the work so all I have to do is figure out the reloading end of the deal.

I call this "chainsaw gunsmithing". I take chainsaw, cut down trees, make money so I can pay somebody that knows what they are doing with the lathe and milling machine

[Mike8623]

Thanks Earl, see guys there are more folks out there that are interested.......lets get this moving.......folks never want to share or discuss their experiences.....this is what learning is all about and sharing is what life is all about..........You know Earl when I did my 50-110 conversions I only found one person willing to share and I thank that person today for helping me further my knowledge....The same with set triggers for 1886.......a little knowledge, a little digging around and someone finally offering some insight and it all comes together.

I've been reloading my 50-110s using a old lyman 310......again it is not a regular 310 but one that is one size larger.......from the 310 shoppe. Hard getting loads so a little research revealed Snooky Williams book, it was a start........I've done a little experimenting with different bullet weights and powders and increasing my knowledge all the time........it really is fun and fullfilling...........It's all about helping each other and not having to reinvent the wheel each time we need a little info...........so come on guys give it up...........lets all learn from each other and help each other isn't that what these sights are all about.

[earlmck]

One thing about this Leverguns forum, Mike, is a huge willingness to share info. What I'm worried you may be up against here is that there are so few of this group who do major gunsmithing themselves, and even fewer of those who have done barrel relining. This might not be the place to get our relining questions answered; not because of a lack of willingness but because of a lack of actual experience. For example, I'd bet if rbertalotto has the experience with this he'll chime in shortly. But there is only a small percentage of the forum members with serious "build-em from the ground up" type experience.

But I'm with you: this is the first place to ask the questions because there are some amazing people with "who'd have guessed it" type knowledge found here.

[pwl44m]

Hey Mike, I will share everything I know ( ) there that is out of the way. Seriously I have a Low Wall that I would like to reline. I'm not sure what it was originally , 22 something, noone has been able to shed any lite on the possible Cal. It is however now about a 44 cal that has no rifling. It has a broken stock (have one coming from E-bay) hope it fits proper. I want to make it shoot but it will take a bit of work. I don' want a big cal, a 32-20 would be fine or a 25-20.
There is a local Gunsmith that says He can do it, might have to go that route. I look forward to seeing how U end up with Urs.
Perry

[M. M. Wright]

I like the idea of reboring better but if you are going to install the liner you need to heat the barrel and chill the liner. I have installed literally hundreds, (maybe thousands) of wrist pins into connecting rods this way. You have to be quick though since the contact between the two makes the temperatures even out rather quickly. You need at least half a thousandth of interference (.0005). Might not be possible to get the liner all the way in before they sieze together.

And remember that lock-tite quits holding at about 300 degrees so no rapid fire if you go that route.

[Mike Hunter]

Maybe I’m missing something here, but you want to go from 4o cal to 50 cal correct? Why even mess around with a liner, just have the barrel rebored & rerifled.

No messing with liners, epoxies, seams…simple & easy.
V/R

Mike

Mike Hunter
www.hunterrestorations.com

[Malamute]

Mike Hunter said what I was going to ask. A rebore rather than a reline would seem more practical.

The barrel wall thickness in a 50 cal liner wouldn't be very thick. I would guess you couldnt use higher end loads that would be OK in a solid one piece walled barrel. I've heard of problems in some relines where a one piece barrel wouldnt have problems. Smaller calibers may be less of an issue, but I'd be concerned some about a 50.

[Mike D.]

Uh, isn't what my suggestion was in the first reply? Of course a rebore makes the most sense.

[Mike8623]

I really appreciate all of the posts and all of the info and advice given, especially from Mike Hunter who has helped me iimmensely in the past. Contrary to what a lot on here think there are some very experienced and knowledgeable smiths on here. Although I have had some schooling and experience I don't consider myself a gunsmith as I made my retirement in and retired in another field not related to smithing. but I do have a little knowledge, a little experience and a huge hunger and need to know and learn as much as I can stuff in my 61 year old brain when it comes to firearms and their (as Dunlap would say, DESIGN, FUNCION, AND REAPIR (DFR)) use.

I really only want to know how to reline a barrel, as I posted I've never done one........that really is the bottom line guys, except that I know there is a lot of stuff that goes along with relinging a barrel, when you really get down to it there are really only two posts that offer a little knowledge and insight in this process when you consider all the posts that were posted and that was Malamutes and Mr. Wrights......theirs was the type of information I was hoping for.

I appreciate all the info and advice on reboring and then rifleing to accomplish the task................but I am not set up to rifle a barrel and do not wish to pay to have it done........it defeats my whole purpose and that is to LEARN AND GAIN EXPERIENCE. So I apoligize directly to those that I may have offended and say I am sorry if I have stepped on any toes........BUT I REALLY ONLY WANT TO LEARN HOW TO RELINE A BARREL. I mean I am pretty sure I can do this on my own.......just thought I would think it all out and prevent any mistakes by obtaining information from those folks that have had personnal insight and experience on the whole process.

Thanks again and I really do appreciate all the posts.

[Mike Hunter]

I don’t do relining here in the shop, just no call for relining on collector guns.

Now with that said, from what I understand relining is a fairly straightforward job; drill out existing bore, ream, glue or solder new liner in place, rechamber, trim ends and you’re done. If you want to get really tricky, have the ends welded to hide the seam.

BUT… to me, it doesn’t pass the common sense test.

A rebore would be a whole lot better and cheaper; Rebores/re-rifle run around $250-$300. Add another $50 for chambering and you’re done.

Considering the tooling that you need to buy, but piloted drill, not sure of the liner OD, but I’m betting that you will need a custom ground piloted drill, then a custom reamer to ream out the hole (Drilling isn’t close enough). Then of course the liner, I’m thinking that you’ll spend more than the cost of reboring with results that don’t match a good rebore. .

I also am not sure a standard Winchester barrel will have enough meat for a 50 cal liner, if so it will be very thin.

Understand that you want to do everything yourself, but keep in mind that liner is bored and rifled, so in essence you’re buying a barrel to stick in your old barrel, really no different than having your old barrel rebored & re-Rifled…Reboring = cheaper, less headaches & better results.

V/R

Mike

[Mike8623]

Thanks for replying Mike, you've been more than kind and gracious with me in all your posts. Your points are right on and this was really what I was looking for in the beginning.

Keeping in mind that the whole thing for me is about hands on learning, not about the barrel at all or where it will go........I simply have a junk barrel and the hankering to line a barrel.

But all your info and everyones elses for that matter is beneficial............and everything should be considered when comtemplating a working project for a rifle.

but for me the nuts and bolts stuff like, the OD of the liner versus how it will fit and perform in the donor barrel in relationship to the overall diameter of said barrel after reaming is important, for me, I know that it may not be worth it monetarily to reline but I want the experience of having done it. Also the cost of drills and reamers is well taken and understood when considered in the overall cost of a project versus the rebore and rifleing.

I was especially interested in Mr Wrights point as heating and chilling to fit the liner............but in its purity it raises some more questions I won't get in to as I have gotten a long way from the intent of the original posting and think at this point the "How to reline a barrel, is dead" when it comes to this thread. I appreciate all that responded and every comment and idea posed. What I take away from this is, "How do I better ask a question, next time, so that it will elicit the information that I am looking for." I guess, How can I better communicate?"

Thanks to all

[Ben_Rumson]

Hopefully I'm not swinging after the bell here..But here’s some dimensions that may be of some help as far as how thin the barrel can be left at the muzzle and still work.. I have an original 1873 50-70 Rolling Block Rifle with 36 inch round barrel tube... Muzzle Diameter measures .709 inch... Groove Diameter .512 inch... When groove diameter is subtracted from muzzle diameter the remainder is .198 inch, but this measurement needs to be divided in half to give the actual amount of metal there is on a side, from the bottom of the groove to the outer metal measured at the muzzle. The answer is .0985 inch of metal left around the grooves! Less than a hundred thou!
I don’t know if your barrel is octagon or round (hopefully octagon with more meat than a round barrel) but I can point to the above minimal dimensions and tell you the rifle shoots very accurately as shown in the pic below... For grins subtract the bullet diameter.512" from the group size....

[Mike Hunter]

Ok then,
Let’s do the math.

The only folks I know of that carry 50 cal liners is TJs in KY. Their liners are 13/16 OD.

Standard 86 barrel dia at muzzle is between .800 - .850.

13/16 = .8125, so worst case (.800) you don’t have enough meat at the muzzle , best case (.850) you will have .037 divided by two and you will have .018 of the original barrel left, that’s about the thickness of 6 sheets of standard paper.

Now, what M. M. Wright is referring to is technically called a shrink fit. I do it quite often here in the shop. Machinist Handbook will have the formulas, ie.. xx dia steel held at 0 deg will shrink xx amount, and the same for heating.

BUT…
For a shrink fit, you need fairly precise surfaces ie +/- .001, also I don’t think you can do a shrink fit on a barrel and tube 26 inches long, I have serious problems with shrink fitting 2 inches. AND.. once they are locked together there is NO unlocking them besides mechanical action…cutting/press. So, if you make a mistake, you're toast.

For the sake of reality, let’s leave shrink fits out. Now we are talking about loctite/epoxies:
For that you will need approx .003 gap all around the barrel, so that’s a .006 size difference between the liner and barrel.

That .037 that you had is now .031 / 2 = .015, now we’re down to less than the thickness of 5 sheets of paper, of the original barrel left at the muzzle.

Basically looking at the stubby pencil math work, it’s not practical.

V/R

Mike

www.hunterrestorations.com

[harry]

Hopefully I'm not swinging after the bell here..But here’s some dimensions that may be of some help as far as how thin the barrel can be left at the muzzle and still work.. I have an original 1873 50-70 Rolling Block Rifle with 36 inch round barrel tube... Muzzle Diameter measures .709 inch... Groove Diameter .512 inch... When groove diameter is subtracted from muzzle diameter the remainder is .198 inch, but this measurement needs to be divided in half to give the actual amount of metal there is on a side, from the bottom of the groove to the outer metal measured at the muzzle. The answer is .0985 inch of metal left around the grooves! Less than a hundred thou!
I don’t know if your barrel is octagon or round (hopefully octagon with more meat than a round barrel) but I can point to the above minimal dimensions and tell you the rifle shoots very accurately as shown in the pic below... For grins subtract the bullet diameter.512" from the group size....

If you look at the hole under the 5" it is only 3/8"

[Mike8623]

OK guys, thanks for the info.

[Ben_Rumson]

Perhaps with a reduction of the liner OD....

[earlmck]

OK, maybe 50-110 doesn't work. How about lining 40 cal. and restoring it to the 40-82? That way the barrel stamp would still be good and you'd get all the barrel liner experience, too.

You are making my little barrel lining project look awful puny: all I was thinking of was lining a 357 barrel to 25 cal. and chamber for .256 Magnum.