Trapdoor education

[3leggedturtle]

I am looking to buy an original 45/70 trapdoor. Where do I start and what should I look for? Omaha Cabela's usually has 4-7 in stock every time I stop there, but feel completely overwhelmed, and dont wanna just buy one. I wanna know what I'm getting beforehand. Or what to look at so as to be able to check info about it? thanks Todd

[Ray Newman]

My standard advice: buy a book before you buy the rifle!

If you do not know what to look for, it is real easy to buy a mismatched parts firearm or a cut down rifle turned into a carbine at a high price. Not only that but from see at the local Cabela’s and on the on-line gun library, their prices seems to be on the high side.

I would recommend:

“The .45-70 Springfield” by Joe Poyer and Craig Riesch, 5th Edition , $22.95. Available on-line from:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/the_45_70_sp ... x?CAT=4146

Waite and Ernst “Trapdoor Springfield” (ISBN 0-917714-20-2) is now out of print, but a search of used book sellers might turn one up. This is a very good reference book. I bought this book when I was on the campaign trail for a Trapdoor and twice is saved me from buying rifles that were not what they said to be!

On-line reference site: http://trapdoorcollector.com/

If you want to load original US Arsenal ammunition and use the issue Armory sights, purchase “Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Riffle and Carbine: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx? ... 0&CAT=4148

[longarm4146]

gotta decide what ya gonna do with it and your budget. Iffin you want a shooter and not real concerned about matching numbers and such you might consider a gun that has had a re-work years ago. I bought a really nice 1884 that had a "Bannerman" replacement barrel that had a mint bore and it shoots as good as any of my long-range vintage guns, and the good thing is that I'm only into it for about $400 bucks. One thing I'd surely watch for as mentioned earlier are the "so-called" carbines that bring a premium but are really just cut down rifles. Good luck!

[Old Time Hunter]

Ray gave you some good advice, especially going to http://trapdoorcollector.com

That being said, I am fortunate to have a few of them. Even though they all have original parts, some have been modified that takes the historical significance for purists out them. This does not make them bad, just not original Armory configuration and does affect their value. So the first thing you have to ask yourself is: do I want a pristine original or an original configuration that I will not be afraid to take into the field.

Also remember, there is no such thing as a "matching" Springfield Trapdoor as almost all of them have had some reconfiguration by the Armory at one time or another in their life time.

These are the primary versions of the Trapdoor:

1. Rifle, 32 5/8" barrel (roughly, Armory re-crowning could affect length), most common
2. Cadet, shorter barrel and length of pull (except when Armory modified a Rifle)
3. Officers model...shorter yet, but extremely rare
4. Carbine, 22" barrel (Original carbines have a saddle ring bar on left side of stock and a "C" stamped rear sight). There are a lot of "homemade" carbine's out there, but if they are done correctly and you do not care about authenticity you can save some big money.
5. Forager, very rare smoothbore, used by camp cooks as both a shotgun and a musket, Has no rear sight.

Back around the turn of the century and the Trapdoor was taken out of "official" military circulation (Coast Guard still issued variations right through WWII) from various state militia's (when the National Guard was formed) quite a few militia's sent their Trapdoor rifles in to an Armory and reconfigured them into Cadets and Carbine's to be used at Military Schools.

The price for a useable "original" Trapdoor can run from around $600(probably pretty beat up) to upwards of a couple of grand with an average presentable rifle being in the $750-$900 range. An "original" TD carbine, starts at the low $1000's for a useable, presentable rendition, to multiple thousands for a Custer era original in pristine shape.

Then there are the "Bannermans", Armory modified, or sporterized. These could be in rifle, carbine, or something inbetween. Depending on how close they are in asthetics to original Springfields, they could run anywhere from $400 to $1000 for a useable, presentable rendition.
These guns usually have mostly original parts and in the case of the "Bannerman's" were put together from parts purchased from the Springfield Armory when they auctioned off excess parts or deemed the weapons unserviceable. Bannermann brought them back to life by sometimes re-barrelling them, different lock plates, and such. To be honest, I have one Bannerman (lock plate has 1883 stamped on it, Armory lock plates never had a year stamped on them), it is the best shooting Trapdoor I have.


Model differences:

1873- early models had a "high arch" breach block that was slightly weaker, but never became an issue. These models also generally had 1877 rear sights, much like a standard ladder military sight.
This is a high arch:

This is a 1873 with a "low" arch:

1884- very similar to the '73, but usually with the buffington sights.
1888- believe Kirk D has one of these, called the "Round Rod Bayonet" rifle for the bayonette configuration.

Things to look for:
1. Breach block lock up, none to very little front to back play, some lateral movement is to be expected.
2. Firing pin, make sure it is not broken off or peened over so far that it could cause mis fire issues.
3. Bore, purists do not care, I shoot mine..even hunt with them, it matters to me.

Remember that an original has .460" grooves, not the .458" commercial so keep that in mind.

[3leggedturtle]

Thanks i am just looking for a shooter, Cabela's has'em from $600 on up. I really would like a carbine or other shortened rifle

[Cliff]

The trapdoors are fun guns. Longer barrels and weight make them more enjoyable. Also if you can get it the book on reloading the Goverment .45-70. This is or was available through Wolfe Press and written by J.D. Wolf. He did pass away a few years back. He spent years gathering the data needed. Sounded like he was planning to do one on the 45 Colt Pistol cartridge as well. Great reading, he explains how the sighting is set up for fouling and what to expect. From what he wrote it seems the .45-70 cartridge was tweaked by the arsenal for maximum accuracy and performance. It is detailed and explains why a few things work well with it. Of course Holy Black is the best for loading (As always). I followed his instructions and they were spot on. I enjoy mine from time to time. But I do use the new fancy smokeless in my ruger Number 1 and Marlin 1895 (new). Remember these were developed to kill a horse at out to around 500 yards in its day. Have a fun time.

[Pitchy]

Todd now you be sure to bring that over so i can play too.

[3leggedturtle]

Todd now you be sure to bring that over so i can play too.

Soon as I git one, some time off, and as long as you have an endless supply of chocolate chip cookies and pepsi, i'll be right over

[Sixgun]

Old Time Hunter said it well. The only thing I can add is cost reflects age/model #--condition for condition. In other words the 1888 bring less than an 1873 and are usually better shooters as they were built better from better steel, closer tolerences and better sights.------------Sixgun

[Bis]

Old Time Hunter- I have an 1873 Cadet that is my shooter since someone sanded down the stock and re-blued it. My question is what does it mean if the lock plate has the date stamped on it? Is it a Bannermans rebuild?

[airedaleman]

About 50 years ago, I bought an original 1873 carbine. It was virtually new with the exception of the first two
(forward) inches of the barrel which were lightly pitted inside and out. It was serial number 273. I paid $25.00 for it. I wonder where it is now...

OTH - I believe Springfield did date the lock plates when they were manufactured. Why would Bannerman add a date to the scrap plates they bought?

[Bis]

Thats what I though, but my1888 has no date on the lock plate.

[Ray Newman]

As I posted earlier, best better buy a book so as to be a fully informed buyer. And from what I have seen at local dealers and Cabela’s, prices often do not reflect what the Trapdoor actually is. For example, a very good friend once unknowingly bought what he thought and was lead to believe was a Custer era carbine, only to later find that it was a cut down infantry rifle with mis-matched parts. Pre 1876 -- AKA Custer era -- carbines are very expensive and the earlier ones more so.

As with all things Trapdoor and Krag: CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Now, a few more tib bits.

-- According to Waite and Ernst “Trapdoor Springfield”, the Trapdoor Springfield lock plate for a firearm made between 1873-78 should read:

U.S.
Eagle stamp Springfield
1873

-- After design 1878 receiver and breechblock changes, Springfield Armory dropped the lock plate date.

-- The breechblock, the “Trapdoor”, will have the date signifying the model. For example:
U.S.
Model
1888

-- As Old Time Hunter stated, Bannerman bought up condemned and worn out Trapdoor firearms and parts to fabricate refurbished and complete firearms to sell as “genuine” Springfield Armory firearms. Some of these Bannerman specials have been seen with Civil War dated musket lock plates. (First models Trapdoors were made up from various Civil War musket parts: stocks, sleeved barrels, locks, etc.) There are Sears and Bannerman circa 1900 ads for these rifles claiming that the .50-70 Trapdoor was used in the Civil War.

--Do not let seller claim that the “star numbered” receiver (that is: serial number, then a star stamp) signifies an officer’s or an extremely accurate firearm. Some unsuspecting buyers pay the seller’s asking premium for these rifles solely because of the star stamp. Consensus among the knowledgeable collectors seems to be is that it is unknown if the star was applied during or after the manufacturer of a receiver and/or that it could very well identify a firearm that was refurbished by the Springfield Arsenal or originally sold to a civilian.

-- A carbine rear sight base and leaf will be marked with a “C”. “R” is on the base and leaf is for a rifle.

-- If the rifle is a ramrod bayonet type, be aware of what model. There were two models: M1880 triangular, the M1884 and the M1888. The M1884 is worth quite a bit more than the others.
http://trapdoorcollector.com/m84rrb.html
http://trapdoorcollector.com/m80.html
http://trapdoorcollector.com/m88.html

-- According to the Armory specifications from Waite and Ernst “Trapdoor Springfield”:
1) Rifle barrels outside diameter should be ..73” at the muzzle; 32.6” long from the receiver face.
2) Carbine barrels outside diameter should be 0.73” at the muzzle, 22.0” long.

--If the carbine barrel is larger than .073” at the muzzle, it is a cut down rifle barrel. Carefully examine the crown from damage as a result of the steel cleaning rod, Also look very carefully a carbine stock tip. Best to look in very bright sunlight to expose the wood plug to fill in the cleaning rod hole on a cut down rifle stock.

--The stock cartouche date and inspector’s stamp should agree with the date of manufacture per the Armory’s records reprinted in various books. Not unusual for a stock to have no stamps (either sanded out or it is a replacement stock). Or, mismatched date/inspector’s stamps vis-a-vis the date of manufacture. Parts have been swapped by unknowing and unscrupulous sellers to present the best looking firearm for the highest possible price to a less than fully informed buyer. When I lived in CA, I knew of one now deceased dealer/seller famous (or infamous??) for doing so.

--While the first carbine design did not have a trap in the butt plate, the later design did, and all carbines did have the sling bar and ring.

--Firing pin: not unusual to find a firing pin that is frozen in place or does not fully retract when closing on a cartridge. After 1878, the Armory deleted the spring and made the firing pin "float" in the breech block, retracting as it the breech block closes against the cartridge.

--Except for the .30 calibre experimental rifle, the Trapdoor was designed for lead bullets and Black Powder velocities. I once saw a pristine 1891 infantry rifle that was shot out from jacketed bullets through the soft steel bore. The action also was rather sloppy as a result of shooting too many high end Trapdoor velocity smokeless powder loads and Duplex cartridges. Lead bullets should be soft so as to obturate in and seal the bore from the gas. And as one poster noted, it is not unusual for bores to a be a bit oversized by today’s standards.

--I have been known to load up GI Black Powder loads for both the carbine and rifle. Even with the reduced 55 grain powder charge and the 405 grain bullet, the carbine will let you know when it goes off. Same with the rifle with 70 grains and 500 grain bullet. From my shooting experience, both the carbine and the rifle are ‘sorta’ light for extended shooting sessions with GI loads.

Did I mention CAVEAT EMPTOR?….

[Bis]

Very interesting, thanks for the history lesson. Tomorrow I will have to measure the wall thickness of my Cadet(I presume that is what you were refering to with the dim. of .073").
I will also have to take another look at my ramrod bayonet rifle. I thought it was a model 1888 but the breach says 1884.

[airedaleman]

Interesting education about the lockplates. Thanks for straightening me out. I must be getting old, because every lock plate I can conjure up in my mind's eye has a date on it. Conditioned mental reflex, I guess.

By the way, when I was a teen-ager I used to frequent the original Bannerman's store on Broadway in NYC
(560, I think - way down town). Great place, dim and dusty.

[Ray Newman]

The Cadet rifle should sport a 29.6" barrel length from the front of the receiver and a 0.73" outside diameter at the muzzle. The Cadet rifle also had a 16.25" bayonet as opposed to the 18" bayonet for the (infantry) rifle.

Always wanted a Cadet rifle, but 'nevva' could find one in the condition I wanted. Most of them were severely used and worn, or were rebuilds/reblued passed off as "pristine" all orginal examples with glossy blued barrels-- just never felt good about those. I might have missed out on the-find-of-a-lifetime, but I learned to pay attention to my Inner Voice when buying firearms.

Re-read and edited my previous post, the M1884 ram rod bayonet rifle is the more valuable of the other two:
http://trapdoorcollector.com/m84rrb.html
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa....

Airdaleman: I grew up out on LI and graduated from Sewanhaka HS back in '64. I remember a few large surplus houses in NYC. Can’t recall the names or the exact locations. I seem to recall stores on Houston Street (??) and I do recall getting off the subway at Chambers Street(??) and then walking a few blocks to afew others. And of course, the Abercrombie and Fitch gun room was a big treat as well as Robert Abels’ antique armor and firearms store. At Abercrombie’s gun room there was a leather couch and the end table’s were made from cut down elephant legs with a thick glass top. The store always had a nice collection of English double rifles and shotguns as well as some nice pre-war Mausers and Mannlichers.

Source for Trapdoor and other antique firearms:
http://www.ssfirearms.com/

As an aside, when the the US Navy raised USS Maine, the Trapdoors found on her were sold to the highest-- Bannerman later sold them for the princely sum of US $25.00 each. The serial numbers of these location unknown rifles are as listed in Waite and Ernst “Trapdoor Springfield”:
311218; 322599; 322634; 472841; 472927, 427941

Old Time Hunter: very good and informative post!

[Old Time Hunter]

U.S.
Eagle stamp Springfield
1873

-- After design 1878 receiver and breechblock changes, Springfield Armory dropped the lock plate date.

This is true as some Model 1873's did have a date stamp, but they are in a minority. There was no such thing as a 1878 Model, just armory mis-stamp with the "3" being driven in too deep.

Ray, top one is a "Cadet" from the West Texas Military Academy where Douglas MacArthur went. This particular rendition is part of the "donation" given to the academy by the MacArthur family in 1903. The gun was originally sent to the Alabama Reserve Training, then assigned to a black regiment, but never issued for the Spanish-American War. When the Alabama Militia Reserves were disbanded and became part of the National Guard, this particular gun went to the Militia Armory instead of back to Springfield. Alabama's armory autioned them off for use as training weapons, even converting some rifles to "Cadets". This all documented at the Alabama Historical Government Archives...I actually have all the authentic paper trail...it is a fantastic shooting little gun.


bottom one in this picture:

[sore shoulder]

Didn't see it mentioned ( maybe it was and I missed it) but when Kirk D met up up with me and Malemute at the Cody museum years ago, we stood in front of a trapdoor on display for over an hour, and one thing that came up was the trapdoor conversions of early muskets, which I had never heard of at the time. Apparently this was a common conversion involving a barrel sleeve and trapdoor breech added to the rifles. Pretty fascinating part of the history of the 45-70. Just an anecdote I thought might interest some or could be elaborated on. I'm not sure if the one we were looking at was a conversion or not, Kirk or Malemute might recall. It was about 8 years ago. I'll be back there next weekend and we are going to the museum on Sunday, I'll see if I can find it and post some pics of it and some other trapdoors.

One thing I remember is Kirk's wife taking their kids for a walk around the museum while we were talking, and she looked a bit surprised when she came back by an hour later and we were still standing in front of that same rifle hahaha.

[OJ]

Old Time Hunter said it well. The only thing I can add is cost reflects age/model #--condition for condition. In other words the 1888 bring less than an 1873 and are usually better shooters as they were built better from better steel, closer tolerences and better sights.------------Sixgun

Yep - I agree - this one given to me by my great uncle (grandfather's brother) is - by serial number - an 1888 model - made in 1890 and originally was an army rifle - ordinance stamp tells - the Buffington rear sight came out on the 1884 model and was improved on the 1888 one. The bore looks nearly new and it shoots well - also dresses up our family room -





That same great uncle gave me my first horse when I was four years old - a 20 year old mare retired from the ranch - talk about being the envy of all the kids in our very small town - they all got to ride her, though - as many as four at a time -

[Ben_Rumson]

Loosely....With thousands upon thousands of muzzle loading rifles left over from the Civil War it was decided to save a buck and convert them to cartridge rifles, as opposed to starting up with a more expensive new type. Many conversion designs were offered, most notable was a Rem. Rolling Block conversion but Springfield went with Allen’s patented Conversion (He worked at Springfield ) . The Brits did about the same thing to convert (Snyder Conversion) the Enfield P53 to a cartridge rifle.
BTW... Nice rifles guys

[Ray Newman]

Ol’ Time Hunter: lucky indeed to have a firearm with provenance attached to it. Would still like to have a cadet, but have not seen one worth it up here. Last one I saw --about 5 years ago -- was obviously somebody’s rebuild and it looked like it was recently done!

Sore Shoulder and Ben_Rumson are correct that the reason for the Allin System (AKA Trapdoor) was the stockpiles of Civil War arms easily converted to the Allin System. The first Trapdoor was a .58 rim fire, followed by the 50-70 Gov’t. with Bennet primer -- an inside the case priming system, then finally the 50-70 Gov’t. with the Boxer primer. Lastly, the .50-70 was replaced by the .45-70 circa 1873. I am the care taker for the next generation of a First Model -- the Model 1866 -- Civil War musket converted circa 1866-68 at the Springfield to .50-70. Lock plate stamped “1864” and “US Springfield”, lined barrel with original barrel sights, well used stock.

A good number of Civil War Sharps carbines and rifles were also converted to .50-70, along with the Remington System (AKA Rolling Blocks). Always lusted after a Navy .50-70 Roller, but I have only seen 2-3 in the last 15 + years that were for sale. Only one had a “shootable” bore and the asking price was way too high in light of flaws in the wood, and the dealer would not budge.

As Ben Rumson points out, the British converted the Enfield via the Snider System, designed in the U.S. The Snider went through three permutations before being replaced by the Martini-Henry, a design made by the Peabody Firearms Company of Rhode island.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Peabody&M/Peab&Mart.htm

My SWAG (Scientific Wild Arsed Guess) is that the U.S. Government adopted the Allin design because:
--The Armory had an experienced workforce to manufacture the muzzle loading muskets, which were readily converted.
--Even though Erskine S. Allen, Springfield Master Armorer, designed and patented the system, he agreed not to charge the U.S. Government royalties. Probably a wise move by Allin who earlier was directed by the U.S. Army to design a system while working at Springfield.(See Waite and Ernst “Trapdoor Springfield” , p. 6)

[Old Time Hunter]

Here is a link to why the .45-70 became and stayed the go to cartridge by the US Military along with the proclivity to stick with the Trapdoor:

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

[Bis]

I don't think I could see a target 2 miles away. I must this sure has been an interesting topic, I have learned a lot.

[JB]

I don't think I could see a target 2 miles away. I must this sure has been an interesting topic, I have learned a lot.

I'd say there was a large amount of luck in hitting the target.

[JB]

Thanks i am just looking for a shooter, Cabela's has'em from $600 on up. I really would like a carbine or other shortened rifle

That translates to $400 and up just about anyplace else. Cabela's tends to price on the high side. You can find shooter grade rifles for $400 if you look around, but you won't find an original carbine anywhere near that price. Most "carbines" you'll see floating around are shortened rifles. You may very well find one of those in the lower price range.

[coyote nose]

If you want to have any resale value when selling later on, I strongly recommend getting a trapdoor with a stock cartouche. Generally, the first thing collectors (myself included) look for when examining a TD is to flip it on its side and look for a cartouche. When selling, it is almost impossible to sell w/o one present. The loss i have taken on non cartouched guns was an expensive education.
Most TDs I se at gunshows are parts guns. You HAVE to know the gun. Pick up every one you see and examine it. READ THE BOOK as others have said and you will soon know what to look for...it is amazing how fast you can rate a TD once you know what to look for.
I have taken my '73 trapdoor out west and shot it at 1000 yards across the praries and across canyons...it is an absolute BLAST to shoot. I use pyrodex and cast bullets and will never use smokeless loads in the guns...others will disagree with me.
Here in Ohio I would not pay more than 400 for a non cartouched gun. If I were to buy another TD I would probably be able to pick up an original shooter in good condition with everything "right" and a cartouche for around 500-600.
Parts guns..well I wont go over 300 for those. Actually turned one down for 175 last year (that one I do regret but it was missing a few minor pieces too). In a lot cases you will see dealers have 700 and up on these non original guns..I just dont get it. They lug them from show to show.
The above applies to rifles...carbines are just priced too high now.