Tom Horn Shot

[Blaine]

It's on Netflix, so I had to watch again. I'm surprised that they consider that 213 yard shot with the 45-60 a tremendous distance. I didnt' look any of this up, but IIRC, it's a 300gr at about...1400fps??. So, maybe a 2' or less drop? Not a difficult hold over, or what do you think?

[JerryB]

Don't reckon 213 yards ain't no hill for a rifleman.

[Pitchy]

Didn`t Horn himself say that the shot would of been the best dern shot he`d ever made if he done it?

[WCF3030]

I'm pretty sure the movie is incorrect, Horn at that time was using a 30-30.

[Blaine]

Didn`t Horn himself say that the shot would of been the best dern shot he`d ever made if he done it?

He did.......makes me wonder if it was true.....I Didn't know about the 30dwcf....

[Buck Elliott]

I'm pretty sure the movie is incorrect, Horn at that time was using a 30-30.

True..

Even at that, the distance isn't all that great.. It is well within the capablities of my .45 Colt load, in a '73 Uberti.. 250 grain bullet at ~1500 fps..

Piece of cake for an expert rifleman with a .30-30.. 165 grain bullet @ 1900 fps....

[kimwcook]

Piece of cake for an expert rifleman with a .30-30.. 165 grain bullet @ 1900 fps....

I'm thinking so and agree.

[Rube Burrows]

I'm pretty sure the movie is incorrect, Horn at that time was using a 30-30.

This is correct. That shot in them days with a 30wcf may have been looked upon as a larger feat than today. In the movie I think he is using a 76 with what I am sure was a much more capable round.

I guess the 30wcf was just not enough star power for the movie.


I think either caliber would have been easily done......esp for someone who made such a living with his gun as Horn.

[Shasta]

I shoot a Uberti 1876 in .45-60 for NRA Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette. The ram silhouette targets measure about 32" wide and about 13" high through the body portion, and are set at 200 meters, or about 219 yards. A 295 grain Lyman 457191 bullet at 1,400 feet per second has no problem knocking down the 53-pound ram if I do my part.

Several people at our club shoot .30-30 caliber rifles that are also quite capable of making the 200 meter shot on rams. It is difficult, but can be mastered with practice!

SHASTA

[Buck Elliott]

Yeah, that '76 rifle, in ".45-60, with a trajectory like a rainbow" was a star of the movie in its own right.. Truth is, Horn had turned to the .30 W.C.F. A while before the Nickel shooting.. The new .30- caliber round was regarded as a long-range number, by shooters who were accustomed to big, heavy, relatively-slow bullets.

McQeen wasn't a very big fella, and that '76 is almost as long as he is...

[Don McDowell]

The 45-60 stuff came from the coroners report. Tom was known to of had one at some point in time. The coroners inquest didn't look at the entrance wound only the exit wound and determined it must of been a large caliber rifle. That led to LaFors asking the leading question , Tom that was a pretty good shot with that 45-60. Tom said If I had of made that shot with a 45-60 it would of been a hell of a shot.... What the court recorder hidden in the closet wrote down is a wee bit different.
Most reasonable people can figure out what happened. One of the Millers (probably Victor) shot the Nickell boy, the Stock Growers were growing increasingly afraid of Horn , so it all fel together , Horn was convicted and hung for a crime he most likely didn't commit.

[Leverluver]

Don

Ya made me dig out that book you got me and start reading it again. Dang good book. If I never said thanks for getting it for me, I'm saying it now

[GoatGuy]

Didn`t Horn himself say that the shot would of been the best dern shot he`d ever made if he done it?

EXACTLY, Pitchy. Having done some reading and considerable palavering with highly learned historians on the subject, I'm not so sure Horn "done the dirty deed to poor Willy". Poor Tom was likely set up as guilty by a zealous, ambious and politically motivated lawman with whom he had some prior dealings and let swing by the bunch of bigtime cattleman who had employed him to deal with the increasing rustling being perpetrated by small spread ranchers looking for a chance to increase their homestead holdings.

[AJMD429]

I don't know the story, and since there wasn't a link, was just wondering. . .

. . . how big was the target...?

I'd think anyone who shot very much with any particular rifle, in any chambering, would be able to hit something at 213 yards. If they couldn't hit a 55-gallon drum at that range, I'd not want them on my team, but if we're talking hitting a golfball at that range, few people could do it even with a varmint-rifle off a rest...

[Don McDowell]

Levelubeer, yessir you've thanked me for it , and as always, I was tickled to death to get it to you.
Picked up a couple more books on that era this summer, but haven't had a chance to read them just yet.

[Don McDowell]

I don't know the story, and since there wasn't a link, was just wondering. . .

. . . how big was the target...?

I'd think anyone who shot very much with any particular rifle, in any chambering, would be able to hit something at 213 yards. If they couldn't hit a 55-gallon drum at that range, I'd not want them on my team, but if we're talking hitting a golfball at that range, few people could do it even with a varmint-rifle off a rest...

Early morning in the fog,Target was a 14 year old boy, about 5'9, and 150 lbs. Center mass hit. Stumbled back about 30 ft and fell dead.

[shooter]

I don't know the story, and since there wasn't a link, was just wondering. . .

. . . how big was the target...?

I'd think anyone who shot very much with any particular rifle, in any chambering, would be able to hit something at 213 yards. If they couldn't hit a 55-gallon drum at that range, I'd not want them on my team, but if we're talking hitting a golfball at that range, few people could do it even with a varmint-rifle off a rest...

If you aren't familiar with the Tom Horn story and are at all interested in Old West history, it would be well worth a little research. Horn led a very interesting life. He kinda walked on both sides of the law, and the events leading up to his eventual hanging are interesting to say the least.

[WCF3030]

On a sunny warm Nov day I spotted for my 14 year old daughter and got her on target blasting milk jugs with scary regularity at 150yds with Buckhorn sights and 173gr Lymans pushed by 16gr of 2400 and using the side of a tree for support. Made the "boys" at the "range" anti-up and pay her $5. Proud day for both dad and grandpa.

So I'm thinking 213yds on a man sized target would not be too difficult for someone whose life and "work" depended on their ability to perform with a rifle.
Fast forward 100 years and if you read most any forum or hunting rag that shot with anything but a purpose built $2000 rifle and a 24x scope would be impossible.

[Rube Burrows]

Don

Ya made me dig out that book you got me and start reading it again. Dang good book. If I never said thanks for getting it for me, I'm saying it now

Which book exactly?

I have read tidbits about Horn in various "Wild West" books about Lawmen and Outlaws but I have never sat down a read a book that was all about Horn. I am sure it would be interesting as he led a very....VERY interesting life right up to the end of that rope.

[Don McDowell]

Rube go to Amazon.com and search out Chip Carlson, then buy all of his books.

[Rube Burrows]

Rube go to Amazon.com and search out Chip Carlson, then buy all of his books.

thanks.

[Streetstar]

Thanks for reminding me Blaine ---- i have had this in my Nefix instant Q for a while, but haven't ten around to it --- today is the day ! Not cold out, but too windy to work outside

[Booger Bill]

Check this out.
http://www.thrillingdetective.com/eyes/horn.html

[Booger Bill]

Years ago I had one of those phony antique pictures taken of my ex, me and our daughter. Someone said I looked like tom horn. Thats when I researched his picture. What cha think? Horn`s is under mine. This was about 30 years ago.



http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/v ... k5aVq6gyxi.

[Blaine]

But, he had that cute little spit curl....

[Cast Bullet Hunter]

Didn`t Horn himself say that the shot would of been the best dern shot he`d ever made if he done it?

What Horn is recorded as saying was something to the effect of: "If I did shoot him (Willie Nickell) it was the meanest trick I ever done." His remark had nothing to do with the difficulty of the shot. At least that is how I have seen it recorded the several times I have come across discussions of Horn over many years. AND, at least at the time of this shooting Tom Horn was using a .30-30 1894 Winchester, not an 1876 as in the movie.

If you really want to learn about Tom Horn go here: http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/horn.html This is the beginning of 4 pages from the "Wyoming Tales and Trails" web site about Tom Horn. Lots of interesting Wyoming history on this site if you have never discovered it before.

Studying history on celluloid is generally quite ineffective. Film is to entertain, not educate.

[M. M. Wright]

As I remember it, Tom's 94 had a tang sight on it. Special order rifle, half octagon, pistol grip, high grade wood, button magazine. It used to be in the Cowboy Hall of Fame along a bunch of Tom's stuff.

[Pitchy]

Didn`t Horn himself say that the shot would of been the best dern shot he`d ever made if he done it?

What Horn is recorded as saying was something to the effect of: "If I did shoot him (Willie Nickell) it was the meanest trick I ever done." His remark had nothing to do with the difficulty of the shot. At least that is how I have seen it recorded the several times I have come across discussions of Horn over many years. AND, at least at the time of this shooting Tom Horn was using a .30-30 1894 Winchester, not an 1876 as in the movie.

If you really want to learn about Tom Horn go here: http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/horn.html This is the beginning of 4 pages from the "Wyoming Tales and Trails" web site about Tom Horn. Lots of interesting Wyoming history on this site if you have never discovered it before.

Studying history on celluloid is generally quite ineffective. Film is to entertain, not educate.

I stand corrected
Another guy that is in question of how he died was Johnny Ringo, though my opinion would be suicide.

[PaperPatch]

After the Horn affair in Wyoming....things did not go well for John Coble.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... &GRid=3467

[exSW]

Which Tom horn movie are we talking about?McQueen or David Carradine.

[Blaine]

Which Tom horn movie are we talking about?McQueen or David Carradine.

I had just watched, for the nth time, the Steve McQueen version. ( Didn't know there was another )

[Streetstar]

Which Tom horn movie are we talking about?McQueen or David Carradine.

I had just watched, for the nth time, the Steve McQueen version. ( Didn't know there was another )

I looked it up on INDB -- "Mr Horn" was a tv movie starring Carradine and Richard Widmark among others.

I just finished watching the McQueen version myself ---- so-so early 80's filmmaking aside, (flashback scenes that make little sense ) it was a bittersweet story and i enjoyed it.

This will just give me more research material for cold winter days, looking up Tom Horn info now.

The first shot he takes in the movie, it looks like a '94 with all subsequent shots made with the big '76 (note to self: Put a 1976 or repro of one near the top of the list when it is time to start buying guns again ! )

Man, sometimes i love a slow Sunday !

[JerryB]

I really enjoyed the movie with Carradine and Richard Widmark. I like Steve McQueen westerns but I think the other Tom Horn was a better movie. It just isn't on TV anymore.

[AJMD429]

Fast forward 100 years and if you read most any forum or hunting rag that shot with anything but a purpose built $2000 rifle and a 24x scope would be impossible.

Ain't THAT the truth...

[piller]

I wonder if he meant that the angle of entry would have had to defy the laws of physics? If I can hit a 5 inch circle with my .30-30 from the bench at 100 yards and I don't get to shoot but a couple of times a year, then a good rifleman could easily hit a human at 200 yards. What I am thinking is that he was to the side of the victim and the bullet entered from the front.

[336A]

After reading the book "Blood on the Moon" by Chip Carlson IMHO that Victor Miller shot Willie Nickell. Here is another great place to read up on Tom http://www.tom-horn.com/

[Booger Bill]

I have the book, A cowboy detective by charles a. sirigino. In it he is hard on horn on some other event when he and horn worked for pinkertons. However siringo was pretty good at tooting his own horn. He implied horn was sort of a drunk and bum. Who knows?