leading with Oregon Trails bullets

[Bis]

Have any of you folks had any problems with leading when using Oregon Trails bullets? They claim that you can load them up just like a jacketed bullet, which I doubt, with no leading.
I followed their loading sheet somewhat for a 357 with a 158 grain bullet. They call for 14.2-15.3 grains of 2400. I started low at 13.4 gr. of 2400 and got some leading, average speed 1661fps out of my Marlin. I tried 14.6 grains at 1763 fps and got heavy leading. All leading is 2-3" at breach end.
Next I thought I would try their cowboy loads. 10.0-13.0 gr 2400. I loaded them with 12 grains and averaged 1459 fps and I still got leading, not near as bad. The only thing I didn't do was, the cowboy load calls for standard primers and I used mag primers.
I am using a Lee factory crimp on these things.
Do I just keep slowing it down until I get no leading.

[stretch]

I'd try 14.0 gr. of 2400 and standard primers out of a revolver
if you have one. See how that works. That's a pretty standard
load. Might also try a 38 special load out of a revolver - something
like 3.4 to 4.0 gr. of WW231. I read (Speer's manual) that modern
2400 works best with standard primers, but I'd be REALLY
surprised if that was the cause of your leading.

I know I'm a bit cynical, but a factory lead bullet at
nearly 1800 fps with no leading?! Hmmm....not convinced.

At the breech end? Throat a little worn? Bullet a mite too
small? Bullet not hard enough? Bullet heel the wrong shape?

Somebody who's more expert on this forum will be along
to educate us in a little bit, I'm sure.

-Stretch

[Old Savage]

I would wonder about the fit of the bullet to the barrel and whether the bullet is a bit under size for that portion of the barrel.

[Bis]

the gun has not had that many rounds through it maybe 1,000

The difference between 14.6 grains of 2400 in a rifle and 4" Ruger.

Rifle 1763 fps
Ruger 1358 fps

[yooper2]

My problems with commercial cast bullets, regardless of make, is mid-level loads. For SASS level loads they work fine (but I don't have a use for ammo that light) or for heavy loads they seem to work okay. I think that it is a lube problem. The lube is quite hard and I don't think it flows at low or mid level loads. It doesn't matter for the low level loads because very little is being asked of it. At mid level loads it provides no more lubricity than at low level loads but it is no longer sufficient for what is being asked of it. With heavy loads it actually runs and does it's job fairly well. Just my thoughts on what is happening. This is all with revolvers. I don't think many cast bullets for pistol cartridges have enough lube to do well in rifle barrels.
Also, bore size is a constant issue. Be sure to slug your bore.
I hope some of this is useful,

Eric

[shooter]

Might help to bump up the size of the bullet by .001 or .002. Some barrels can be slightly different diameters in different spots on the barrel. I've never experienced this, but that's what I've heard. If it's right at the breech end that is giving you the problems, a larger bullet might seal better and stop the leading, then get swaged down further down the barrel.

[Paul Jenkins]

Gentlemen,
I like O.T. .459 , 350 Gr. in the .45-70/ G.C. attached. 1900 FPS has been my max. At velocities that high you are bound to get some leading. A reasonable vel. would be 1500 F.P.S. At 1500 F.P.S. i can shoot a lot before accuracy drops off. You can't exspect velocities much over 1500 F.P. S. in a hunting bullet without some leading after maybe 10 shots. Try cleaning more often!
Leading at high velocity is a fact of life! If you must have the very high velocity , go to jacketed bullets.

[Lefty Dude]

Most lead bullets designed for revolvers have a beveled base. When they are shot they are usually under the leading velocity. This same round shot in a Rifle will be 300 fps greater in velocity. Also because of the closed breach, and the bevel based bullet, gas cutting will occur at the base of the bullet around the bevel. Leading will be in the leade of the chamber and the first few inches of the rifling.

Corrections:

Reduce the velocity of the round in the rifle. This will stop the leading.

Use gas checked bullets which are flat based. These can be pushed at almost jacketed velocity.

When I am developing a multi-use load for Rifle & Revolver I always choose the Rifle first, the Revolver comes along for the ride.

It is difficult to make both a Rifle & Revolver load that will work well for both. Sometimes a compromise is in order. The Rifle usually wins.

I have always had leading with issues with Oregon Trail bullets. I do not like bevel based lead bullets. I prefer flat base bullets for a better gas seal and fit.

[Mike D.]

I have driven Oregon Trail hard cast bullets to over 2200 FPS with no leading issues whatsoever. Too bad that they are no longer allowed in the areas where the Condor might some day soar.

[El Chivo]

I don't think it's the speed but the rear of the bullet melting. I got leading just as you did, using 2400 in the .357 (10 grains) and Oregon Trail bullets.

Some advised me to up the load with 2400. They said the bullet is too hard to seal with my 10 grain load. I didn't want to so I switched powders. I'm glad you told me you had problems at 14 grains - apparently it's not a sealing problem, it's a heat problem.

I switched to IMR4227 for hotter loads and SR4759 for lighter loads, magnum primers also. I use a max load of 13 grains 4227 with the 180 grain bullets, which should be faster than the 10 grains of 2400, or at least comparable. I have had no leading with either powder. I believe these powders burn cooler and that is the reason.

If you want to use the 2400, why not try a paper or acetate gas check? I'm curious to see if it would do the trick. You just need to protect the bullet base a little bit - Paco mentioned it in one of his articles.

[J Miller]

Slug your barrel and measure the bullets. Don't take the makers word for how big they are.

My bet is the bullets are undersized for your barrel. Leading at the chamber end usually indicate they are not sealing and the powder gasses are blowing by the base.

Bevel based bullets exacerbate this problem.

It doesn't matter how hard a BB bullet is if it's undersized. Powder gasses will soften and melt it.

Joe

[Old Ranger]

I went back to casting my own agaain. I tried some store bought bullets in my .44mag Browning 92 and in my Marlin GG in 45-70. Both bullets were bevel based and had that crayon hard lube in them. Got leading in both weapons at ANY velocity I shot them.

My findings are as follows:

1. The lube that they commercial mfg's put on their bullets is designed to stay on the bullet and not come off during the shipping of the bulk bullets. It does not perform well at all. It can't, it's too hard and will not work.

2. Commercial cast bullts are often bevel based and cast of very hard metal. It's easier to produce in mass with large casting devices. The Bevel base allows gas cutting and the hard metal will not upset to grab the rifiling. Again, they cast them hard so they look good when they arrive, but are too hard for use.

3. Often the bullets you buy say that they are sized correctly. I had some that were stated to be .430", but in fact all measured at .4285" and thus were grossly undersized.

I no longer buy ANY cast bullets and cast my own again as I have for 50 years. In the .44mag, I use a SWC with a gas check sized to .430" and there is no leading. In the 45-70, I returned to the 405 HB cast about 20:1 and sized at .458" and there is no leading.

If it were me, I'd melt the ones you have and add some pure lead to soften them up and cast your own. But that's just my thoughts here.

Wade

[Bis]

Thanks everyone for the info. Not sure which way to go. Have several hundred of these things left.
I have not tried them in the Ruger yet. I would hate to think I would have rifle bullets and revolver bullets.
I may have to try a lighter charge, since 12 grains got slight leading and still produced 1459 fps.
The rifle is used mostly for plinking but maybe pressed into service as a deer gun at 50-75 yards. Our deer are not very big down here.

[O.S.O.K.]

Have any of you folks had any problems with leading when using Oregon Trails bullets? They claim that you can load them up just like a jacketed bullet, which I doubt, with no leading.
I followed their loading sheet somewhat for a 357 with a 158 grain bullet. They call for 14.2-15.3 grains of 2400. I started low at 13.4 gr. of 2400 and got some leading, average speed 1661fps out of my Marlin. I tried 14.6 grains at 1763 fps and got heavy leading. All leading is 2-3" at breach end.
Next I thought I would try their cowboy loads. 10.0-13.0 gr 2400. I loaded them with 12 grains and averaged 1459 fps and I still got leading, not near as bad. The only thing I didn't do was, the cowboy load calls for standard primers and I used mag primers.
I am using a Lee factory crimp on these things. Do I just keep slowing it down until I get no leading.

Bis, I think that is your problem. Pull a boolit and check it's diameter. I think you will find that the Lee factory crimper sized your bullet down enough that it allows blow-by and therefore, leading.

I loaded thos exact boolits over 3 grains of W231 for my boys CAS shooting for several years - never got a spot of leading from the Marlin 94. If that low-pressure load didn't lead, then it wouldn't lead at higher pressure either until you got too fast - like beyond 1600 fps.

Check it, but I bet I'm right.

I have found this to be true with my 500 S&W and 440 grain gas checks that I loaded and used the Lee factory crimp - ditto for some soft plated Berry's 350 grain bullets.

This phenomena has been reported on the cast boolits board and that's why I checked my loads....

Obviously, the answer is to use a standard roll crimp and test again...

[mikld]

Most commercial cast bullets are too hard, and most use marginal lube (hard to survive shipping). Measure your bullets and slug your barrel, and lose the Lee FCD (not good for lead bullrts). Shooting commercial cast isn't a problem if the bullets are the correct size for the barrel; .002" over groove diameter is a good place to start. If your barrel slugs out at .357", try bullets of .358" or .359". I've shot some flat based bullets relatively hot (a hair over max. loads of True Blue) that were kinda soft (BHN about 9 or 10) without any leading 'cause the bullets fit my revolver; .359"...

measuring info; http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-1_Measurin ... nsions.htm

[Cliff]

"Old Ranger" is correct. For now use a heat shield between the bevel based bullets and also rub them with some soft lube like Lee's. It will protect the base of the bullet from the heat of the powder burn. Good Luck.

[O.S.O.K.]

I bet dollars to doughnuts that it's the Lee Factory Sizer - let us know!!

I do like the liquid alox too though - but I had perfect results with these boolets right out of the box. Marlin and two ASM single action revolvers.

[Bis]

I don't think it is the Lee factory crimp die. I made a dummy round going through all the steps except powder and primer. The O.T. bullet meassured on the fat side of .359 before I loaded it, thats after I tried to wipe off any lube that might be on the surfaces. After loading, crimping and pulling, it measured on the thin side of .359
I like the idea of putting some Lee liquid alox.
At the moment I have nothing to slug the barrel with. I will have to work on that.
Thanks for the inputs

[Udy]

I've got mixed results with them. At the price they charge for them now I don't think I would even bother since you can get good ones for the same price, but I bought scads of them when they were real cheap.

Any how, for what its worth:

I shoot the 405gr. bullets at 1600 ft/sec. in my 450 marlin. I measure the bullets at .459". My barrel slugs just shy of .458. I have zero leading in that rifle. They are fantastic.

My .44 magnum loads however are a different story. I have tryed many different loads mostly with 2400 and H110 up and down the powder levels. My 629 has minor leading in all loads and shoots them pretty good, BUT..... I have not got any of them to do worth a hoot in any of my rugers (vaquero, blackhawk, redhawk). They all lead something terrible in short order, and the shots pattern bad. I haven't took the time to measure all the pistols for comparison, but its frustrating when one of them shoots them good.

All I can conclude is that there isn't nesasarilly any thing wrong with the bullets, but some guns like them and others don't.

[BigSky56]

Read this http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm, you have to match the your psi to the hardness of the bullet to keep from leading, a hard bullet run to slow will lead too as its not bumped up to fill the bore. danny

[Slick]

I load the OT “laser cast” almost exclusively and have never had a problem with lead in all but one of my guns. That rifle also fouls copper and the bore is rough straight from the factory. I got it (Win-94) at Big 5 for $299 and they have a lock cable the went through it so I couldn’t notice the crappy bore.