How can I duplicate a factory load?

[hightime]

I've had several posts about getting my 1873 Special Sporting Rifle 45 Colt to shoot better groups. I sluuged the barrel, found some leading, bought another mold and 455 sizer, ect. The Rem factory loads shoot acceptable, mine do not.
I even bought those Rem 455 swaged bullets. Is there somewhere they tell what powder they use? Primer?

Rem factory loads will shoot 2'' groups at fourty yards and my efforts to match shoot 4''. Sad but true.

Owen

[Washita]

I've had several posts about getting my 1873 Special Sporting Rifle 45 Colt to shoot better groups. I sluuged the barrel, found some leading, bought another mold and 455 sizer, ect. The Rem factory loads shoot acceptable, mine do not.
I even bought those Rem 455 swaged bullets. Is there somewhere they tell what powder they use? Primer?

Rem factory loads will shoot 2'' groups at fourty yards and my efforts to match shoot 4''. Sad but true.

Owen

It seems reasonable to assume they use Remington primers, but I doubt you'll ever find out what powder they use or how much. Manufacturers don't use canister powder. They test the bulk powder from whatever lot they're using for pressure and adjust the charge accordingly. 2 different lots of the same ammo may or may not have the same charge.

You might want to look at the Lyman manual tables. They normally show a "potentially most accurate" load for each bullet tested. Of course, the cast bullets tested are Lyman.

[hightime]

That's what I've done.

Owen

[harry]

Owen you might ask these guys about lube problems and what to use in a rifle, Remington may use a lube that works better in the longer barrel of a rifle than the lube you are using. Do you have a chrony? That might help you too. Factory crimp vs your crimp? Ok that is the game that keeps alot of fellows in the game. I would just keep after it and you should be able to do better than the 2" you get with the Remingtons. Oh and buy lots of powder, I have 11 defferent pistol type and 10 rifle type powders and some as you know can be used on both. But just hang in there cause what someone says shoots 1/2" groups at 100 yards in their gun won't do 10" in yours.
Good luck
Harry

[mikld]

If your bullet fits the rifle's barrel, find what the velocity is of the Remington ammo and look in your reloading manual (Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, very good info) and try to match that velocity. Your load prolly won't be identical because Remington's powder isn't a canister powder available to the public, but you will get close. You may have to experiment quite a bit to find the load your rifle shoots best (powder, charge, bullet size, alloy, lube, etc.). For cast bullet and lube info check out http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php.

[w30wcf]

Owen,
I have dissected some different 45 Colt factory ammunition and they all contained no more than 5 - 6 grs of smokeless.
Current 45 Colt Winchester ammo contains 6 grs of what appears to be W231 powder, but may not be.
Some Cowboy ammo contained 5.5 grs of Hodgdon's Tite Group.
Hornady Cowboy contained 5.0 grs of a flake powder that is similar in appearance to Red Dot.

I would suggest trying 6 - 7 grs of Unique and see how that works.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[hightime]

Thanks, Maybe I've been loading too heavy. I tried 8 to 9 gr. Unique. Anyway it's all fun.

Owen

[Chas.]

You said you slugged the barrel and found lead in it. what did your barrel slug after you got all the lead out?

[O.S.O.K.]

Seems to me that you're really asking for an accurate load at around factory velocities?

Here's what I would recommend:

1) fit the boolits to the barrel (that's what you've done sounds like, so that's good)
2) give the boolits a coating of Lee Liquid Alox lube - don't worry about the existing lube - just apply over that
3) if the fired cases have a slight bulge ahead of the case head (very common with 45 Colt), then try neck sizing your cases = that is, adjust the sizing die up so that only the upper half of the case is sized - I used a decaping die (big die with decapping pin and no sizing done) and then the standard sizing die adjusted up. This will align the case much better in the chamber and get your boolits started much more plumb.
4) Try 7.0 grains of W231 - this was my CAS load of choice (a bit hot for today's CAS shooters but totally safe and legal) - gives 800 fps from my 4 5/8" Vaqueros and 1000 on the money from my 24" Marlin Cowboy with good accuracy.

I loaded Laser-Cast 250 grain RNFP and never had any leading or other issues and I shot thousands of rounds... but they fit my Rugers and Marlin's bores.

[JohndeFresno]

I have loaded several different calibers, especially defensive handgun calibers, this way:
1) I look on the box or -
2) Go to a sales site that gives you the muzzle velocity of that exact round.
Able Ammo (http://www.ableammo.com) seems to be the best one for that information.
3) I check whichever load manual carries the bullet, as mentioned.
4) Look for safe loads that offer that muzzle velocity.
5) If one is also marked as "the most accurate," that is a plus.
6) Since cases, primers, and the various lots of powder vary, one must still drop 10% below the load and work up for safety.
7) Some factory rounds may not be safe to duplicate, because they use proprietary powder that is not yet available, and they have very precise temperature and metering controls. See #4 again. A recent example, until they released their powder, was the LeverEvolution line of ammunition.
Stated factory velocity is rarely the precise velocity that you will realize in your firearm, because of the test equipment that they use; and there are obvious differences when you factor in the barrel length of your firearm. Know the length of the test barrel used in factory specs, if possible, and load to that. QuickLoad software helps with that problem, since you can adjust the barrel length (among many other factors) to predict the actual velocity and pressure of the load.

And it goes without saying that individual firearms respond differently.

[DPris]

And stay away from swaged bullets, they're softer than hard cast versions.
That CAN cause leading & they MAY not engage the rifling as well as a harder bullet would.

Swaged are best used with relatively low velocities through a "polished" bore.
By "polished" I mean one that's broken in & doesn't have sharp rifling or rough surfaces.
Denis

[piller]

JohndeFresno and DPris have both given good advice. I also like the lyman book for the way it points out accurate loadings. The ones that the Lyman manual recommends have been accurate in everything I have tried them in. The Hard Cast bullets have always been accurate for me, especially in my .480 Ruger caliber Rossi m92, even though I don't have the lyman manual that lists this cartridge. Lyman's recommendations in .30-06, .270, .243, .30-30, and 7mm-08 have been right on the money as far as which powders and loads are accurate.

[O.S.O.K.]

And stay away from swaged bullets, they're softer than hard cast versions.
That CAN cause leading & they MAY not engage the rifling as well as a harder bullet would.

Swaged are best used with relatively low velocities through a "polished" bore.
By "polished" I mean one that's broken in & doesn't have sharp rifling or rough surfaces.
Denis

I find that the hollow base swaged boolits are great with older revolvers with rough, lightly pitted bores. They shoot very well and don't lead at all. I'm talking about the Hornady brand with dry lube. The loads are light yes, around 750 fps usually.

[DPris]

The softer swaged bullets do have a place, and with a good lube might do OK in a pitted handgun bore at lower velocities.
There are few absolutes & some surprises, which is why I said "CAN" & "MAY".
But, I'd still avoid 'em in a rifle.
Denis

[hightime]

Great stuff guys. I'm hearing some new points. Those swaged Rem bullets are 455 dia. They shoot the best but my bore measures at 451. I did not account for hard or soft casting. I'll get a tester. I have wheelweight lead.
I have a 24'' barrel. Slower burning powder? I did run those 455 dia. through the sizer with SPG lube.

Owen

[DPris]

Wheelweights should be good up to 1000 FPS or more, harder than swaged.
Bullet sizing may make a difference, probably best not to go much beyond a couple thousands bigger'n bore diameter in a harder bullet.
At least try harder bullets in the .452-.454 range.
If loading only for that 24-inch barrel I'd suggest a slower powder.
SPG lube? You ARE using smokeless?
Denis

[J Miller]

Owen,

This the third or fourth thread you've started about this rifle and trying to find a good load for it. So far nothing you've said about it, (that I can remember) makes me think it should be this fussy.

So here is a suggestion. It is just a suggestion and only a suggestion, but give it a try.

>Buy a 500 pack of the Remington 250gr lead bullets.
>Buy 500 Win WLR primers
>Buy a pound of 231
>Buy 500 brand new, or 500 once fired cases. All the same brand if possible.

>Coat all 500 of the bullets with Lee liquid alox lube. I use a Glad food storage tub and put 100 bullets at a time in and a squirt of the lube. Tumble them around till they are all coated then dump them out on wax paper. Set them base down to dry for couple days before you load them. If they are still sticky toss 'em in a zip lock bag with some mica.

>Full size the cases with a standard steel sizing die
(single ring carbide dies OVER size the cases, standard steel dies don't size the bodies near as much. For this exercise we don't want to over re-size the cases.)
>Expand them with a .454" expander
(Current expanders are intended for .452 or smaller bullets. When you use the soft swaged bullets like the Remingtons with a small expander the case tension will actually compress the bullets and you will end up with a smaller bullet. The .454" expander die as used in the RCBS Cowboy Die set will provide neck tension without distorting the bullets.)
>Prime them with the WLR primers
(I've been shooting this exact load for over 30 years and from my experience the Win primers match up with the 231 powder perfectly.)
>Load 7.1grs of 231 in each case
>Seat the bullet to 1.590"
(Use a SWC seating punch. The flat nose on the Rem bullet will still be flat and there are no curved sides of the seating punch to mar and distort the bullet. Start the bullets by hand so they are straight going into the case as you put them in the seating die.)
>Put a moderate roll crimp on it, do not crush crimp it.

>Go shoot 450 rounds for fun. Don't spray and pray shoot, but just shoot for practice. Don't clean the gun during the shooting UNLESS it leads up. It shouldn't though.
>Take the last 50 rounds and bench shoot the rifle for accuracy without making any changes to the sights. See how it shoots.

>Then clean the rifle thoroughly and go back to your load testing if you want to.

I wish we were closer I'd be glad to help you with this project.

Joe

[hightime]

It's a deal. I'll print this out and follow though. It will be my misson. I so wanted this gun to be accurate enough to compete with my son.
We shoot the Sharps at long range and they drop in great. I'm used to better performance than I've been able to get with the 45 Colt. It's looking a bit more like winter here now so there's no rush. It's a good time to get my head wrapped arround a plan of action.

Thanks Joe.

Owen

[J Miller]

Owen,

I've got an RCBS steel sizing die and all the needed things to go with it.
If you have the cases I can size and expand 'em for you.

Joe

[hightime]

That's the dies I have too. Thanks for the offer. I have four types of cases, but I don't mix them. I have the most of Winchester. I'll buy two bags of fresh Winchester brass, those primers and the 231. I have not used that powder before. I already the bullets. The barrel slugs at 451. I did a chamber cast too and it looks ok. Maybe some machining marks.

That 44-40 Henry in my avitar out shoots the 1873 45 Colt by a long sight.

Owen

[Griff]

I might be all wet, but... here're my thoughts (actually, what I've stolen from others in the nearly 40 years I've been reloading), on leading and accuracy.

Factors Affecting Leading
1. Speed – in the form of velocity… depending on the hardness of the bullet, lead will shear at different velocities.
2. Lube – must be matched to the speed at which the bullet will be traveling. A harder lube for faster velocities, softer for slower. Must also be sufficient quantity for the length of the barrel for which it must provide lubrication.
3. Fit – the diameter of the bullet must fill the groove diameter of the barrel. Too large of a bullet and pressures rise to increase heat generation, too small and gases from the combustion will soften the lead and lube, increasing the chance of stripping lead from the bullet and depositing it in the bore.

Those 3 things, either singly or in combination will cover about all instances of leading in rifled bores. As in most other things, it’s all about compromise.

Factors Affecting Accuracy
This will by no means, be a complete listing, nor will any aspects covered, be done so in great detail.
1. Barrel condition – including the rifling and muzzle (crown). Although there are very many styles of rifling, consistency of depth and concentracy of the spiral is important. The muzzle (crown) needs to be free of nicks, burrs or other anomalies. I’ll include the throat area also. Whole articles can be written about just those three features of the barrel. I have neither the real expertise nor the credentials to expound on this subject... I can only say, I know a crummy barrel when I see one. What makes a good one? I've no clue other'n those things mentioned.
2. Ammo – again, its consistency in all respects is probably the most important of its ability to provide the very best of accuracy. Easier said than done... but once learned, easy enough to duplicate if one puts forth the effort. For like most good results, it's the end product of a lot of attention to details.
a. Bullets – must be of uniform size, weight, length and shape and free from defects. Dent the nose of your bullets and unless they're oriented in the chamber the same way every time... you get flyers. Ok, so you COULD orient the nick or dent the same way in the chamber EVERY time... you'll get a flyer that's consistent... but probably not where you'd like it!
b. Cases – again, uniform in size, length and unlike bullets, internal capacity is also an important aspect. If case capacity differs in material size, it changes the space in which combustion occurs. This directly affects both the total pressure available and the time it takes to reach that pressure.
c. Primers – different brands have different compounds, not all equal in heat generation and flame production. Primer manufacturers do try to maintain their properties within certain parameters, but those can change from lot to lot.
d. Powder, like primers is subject to some changes in formulation and density from lot to lot.
e. Assembly – here is where the reloader has the largest affect outside of his selection of components. If your techniques vary from round to round, so to will your results. While it’s important that you have the exact same charge weight of powder from round to round, you can with, very consistent technique produce very consistent ammo without weighing each charge. The same is true of seating and crimping the bullets in the case; technique and your equipment must be capable of providing that consistency.

This is where good, solidly locking rings for dies are important, along with clean mating surfaces for the dies and press and last, but not least, to develop a “feel” for when a case is lubed properly in the sizing process and, when the bullet is seated well in the bullet seating process.

While I believe that a combination seat and crimp dies are all that are necessary, others like to separate these two functions. While it may be more difficult to adjust a combination die initially, once done, it’s done. Two steps have been reduced to one. I have not proven to my satisfaction that a separate crimping and seating station is necessary for consistent, accurate ammo.

As leading (or rather, a lack thereof), is the result of making good choices with lead alloy, lube & velocity; accuracy is a subjective matter (one man’s acceptable is another’s unacceptable). But, both are the direct result of assembling ammo, mating that with a rifle and determining if you’ve made all the right choices in the various compromises that yield good accuracy.

I'd write a lot more, but I'd just be duplicating the work and efforts of folks a lot smarter than I'll probably ever be... I strongly suggest that you read the various articles on the subject found at the Los Angeles Silhouette Club website.

[Griff]

One other detail I meant to mention... working up loads...

Until I had a spare press to take to the range and do load assembly RIGHT there, I'd develop where I wanted to start working up from. Then, I load 5 rounds at that charge weight. The add a 1/10th of a grain, load 5 more, and thereon up until I was about ½ grain below max. Those would get put in my ammo box, and a sheet of paper with each loading marked to correspond to that row of bullets. I'd then shoot each row of 5, note the size group and move on. Somewhere in there, I'd invariably find "best" load for that bullet, lube and powder. If not satisfactory, I'd move to another powder and start over. Tedius & time consuming, but ultimately, it proved productive! I have loads that I can expect to get ½MOA out of, others where it doesn't matter quite so much... but, working up a load still entails the same steps.

[hightime]

Thanks Griff. I actually welcome the work needed to be done. If I didn't have any challange, what would I do with my time?

Owen

[Leverdude]

If you arent pushing them fast soft bullets are fine. Thats what they used back in the day & thats why they got acceptable acuracy from varying bore sizes. Leading can be caused by pushing too hard, but its also common with an undersized HARD cast bullet because they dont obturate & fill the bore like a soft bullet will. If they fit they can be pushed beyond 1000fps, to about 14 or 1500 FPS I'd think. I tend to stay around 1300. We need to remember that almost every 22lr load uses a soft lead bullet over 1000fps without leading. I use the Hornady dry lube bullets and Speer Idaho Territory bullets with great sucess in various loads up to 1300fps in rifles. They shoot well out of my revolvers too but I havent chronyd them.

[Chas.]

Factors Affecting Leading
1. Speed – in the form of velocity… depending on the hardness of the bullet, lead will shear at different velocities.
2. Lube – must be matched to the speed at which the bullet will be traveling. A harder lube for faster velocities, softer for slower. Must also be sufficient quantity for the length of the barrel for which it must provide lubrication.
3. Fit – the diameter of the bullet must fill the groove diameter of the barrel. Too large of a bullet and pressures rise to increase heat generation, too small and gases from the combustion will soften the lead and lube, increasing the chance of stripping lead from the bullet and depositing it in the bore.

That should pinned.
1. Speed
2. Lube
3. Fit and
4. Hardness (addressed in No. 1)

Keeping the leading down is a balancing act involving all these factors.

[JohndeFresno]

Factors Affecting Leading
1. Speed – in the form of velocity… depending on the hardness of the bullet, lead will shear at different velocities.
2. Lube – must be matched to the speed at which the bullet will be traveling. A harder lube for faster velocities, softer for slower. Must also be sufficient quantity for the length of the barrel for which it must provide lubrication.
3. Fit – the diameter of the bullet must fill the groove diameter of the barrel. Too large of a bullet and pressures rise to increase heat generation, too small and gases from the combustion will soften the lead and lube, increasing the chance of stripping lead from the bullet and depositing it in the bore.

That should pinned.
1. Speed
2. Lube
3. Fit and
4. Hardness (addressed in No. 1)

Keeping the leading down is a balancing act involving all these factors.

Yes. As for those who don't cast their own, one can sometimes determine which bullet caster supplies that component to the ammunition vendor. Sometimes the ammunition company will state who they use on the website. More frequently, the caster will state something like "DeFresno Ammunition uses our cast bullets exclusively."

Then, you can use their cast bullets, since the lube, hardness, and muzzle velocity have already been matched for that factory round. You can bet that they have conducted extensive experiments before marketing their product, and there is a good chance that what they offer to the public is the same bullet sold to the various ammo vendors.

The better suppliers will either offer specific hardness/lube/optional gas check bullets for various velocity needs, or show that information on a help page, or send an e-mail reply to your specific inquiry.

If you have a different supplier (or cast your own), sometimes the bullet caster's site will announce what type of lube they use, or they might tell you by e-mail. Some will not, since the process is proprietary. Check out a few bullet caster sites for yourself and see.

[hightime]

Yeah, I got that part. I bought the Rem 455n dia swagged bullets. It's the powder and primers I was wondering about. My own loads with the Rem bullets are better, but not as good as the complete Rem loads.
After I get mine to shoot with their bullets then I'll try to cast something that will shoot well.

Owen

[1894c]

This is a great thread...thank you for posting it and thank you for all of the info... :)