How come............?

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:06 pm

Why izzit:

I have gone to quite a few gunshows, where I have chanced to meet many Navy veterans. NOT ONE of them was a cook, a radioman, an aircraft mechanic, etc, EVERY ONE of them was a SEAL! Strange.

I have hunted prairie dogs in the Wyoming wind for 50 years or more. Now, every prairie dog shooter on the 'net is making 1200-1800 yard shots in a 40 knot wind, while I just feel good about making a head shot at 125 with my .22 Hornet. Strange.

I have shot a few elk. None further than 75 yards away. I have NEVER met an elk hunter that doesn't regularly shoot elk in the neck while they are on a dead run at over 500 yards. Strange.

How come I am the only gun owner in the world who does NOT own several rifles that will print one-hole groups at 200 yards all day long if I do my part? Strange.

Others here on the forum may have similar experiences, do you?
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Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:19 pm

Yes. An old buddy can't hit the side of a barn, but you should hear the big talk.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:20 pm

Wellllllll........ Now that you mention it, I HAVE been fellin' mighty depressed, 'cause my Henry.22LR levergun won't make an elk DRT....

.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:36 pm

Even though I have the same guns as these people, mine never seem to be able to do what thiers do.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:41 pm

the Navy men i know aint Seals
the PD i shoot at are fairly safe at 300 yds & if the wind is 30 mph
there very safe
Elk all under 200 yds to maybe 50yd, one at max 300yd

I know its not sporting to shoot anything under 600yd & standing
this is the one I like, 600yd & running flat out held on the goats nose pulled the trigger & down he went, that blaa blaaa mag really
gets out there
the one guy i know that has a 7mm Mag shoots 2 in. groups at 500 yd
I just said im happy with that at a 100 yd

ollogger

gak · Post by **gak** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:46 pm

I met a "gentleman" a month or so ago who said he was in the army in WWII in France (yeah that's it!). Looked to me he couldn't have been old enough to be a private in Vietnam. I didn't have the energy to grill him on the details of his service.
OTOH, I can kill a grizzly bear with my .22 LR....
Oh...forgot to mention -- if he was drugged asleep and I had my 69A to his ear

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:07 pm

Ought to be a requirement that we have our DD-214s tattood somewhere inconspicuous just to keep everybody honest; what, don't know what a DD-214 is? OK Rambo...

PaperPatch · Post by **PaperPatch** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:11 pm

I once had a Supervisor, who had slain deer in the Colorado mountains at 600 yards with a 12 gauge slug gun. Strange indeed.

At the time...debating such things would've been a bad career move.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:42 pm

PaperPatch wrote:I once had a Supervisor, who had slain deer in the Colorado mountains at 600 yards with a 12 gauge slug gun. Strange indeed.

That REALLY rings a bellwith me !

I once hunted Maine deer, with a bunch of older men from my state.
I posted one of the older men at (BIG) field's edge, whilst 4-5 of us younger guys (40-somethings at the time) strolled through the adjascent woodlot(s). (he had a scoped Rem 742 in .30-06)

As luck would have it, a HUGE (like 250lbs) 10-pointer got up from his bed IN BACK OF ME - where he had just let me walk right on by (smart animal - but that's how they get big), just as I was clambering over a stone wall.

Of course, I barely had time to blink, nevermind shoot - so I yelled loudly to the guy in the field that the big buck was a-comin ! BANG........BANG..............BANG.......

I come outta the woods - no deer, just the older poster. (Hmmmmmmm)

When I asked "Wha-happen?", the guy said he musta missed, because the deer was so far away - over 600 yeards. He even held about 8' over it's back when he was shooting.

I asked him to direct me to where the deer was when he shot, thinking that I might find some sign of a hit.

He pointed to another treeline, in the near corner of the field, no more than 200 yards away.

(I got a "BIG" arguement about my range guess, until I paced off 230 steps to the treeline with the man)

I called it a day (that day).

.

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:55 pm

Ask those SEALS what their PRT swim time was. The only SEAL I've met did the 500 in 6 minutes and change. Beat our Ops Boss by 4 minutes!

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:00 pm

Now that you mention it, I HAVE been fellin' mighty depressed, 'cause my Henry.22LR levergun won't make an elk DRT...

Ya gotta do your part too, don't just blame the rifle.

My 22lr took a bull buffalo once, DRT.
I stalked to within 200 yards of him, wasn't game to get any closer cause they are dangerous critters when you get too close. Anyway, I thought it would be unsporting to shoot him when he wasn't looking so I called out to him. He looked up, saw me and the rifle I was carrying, and laughed so hard he couldn't breath, DRT from asphyxiation. No word of a lie.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:02 pm

damienph wrote:Ought to be a requirement that we have our DD-214s tattood somewhere inconspicuous just to keep everybody honest; what, don't know what a DD-214 is? OK Rambo...

No kidding should have seen all the folks I ran into while on recruiting duty that "had" a military back ground.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:09 pm

Thats all because you are a rare strange bird. -----------A honest man!

spaceman spiff · Post by **spaceman spiff** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:18 pm

jnyork wrote:Why izzit:

I have gone to quite a few gunshows, where I have chanced to meet many Navy veterans. NOT ONE of them was a cook, a radioman, an aircraft mechanic, etc, EVERY ONE of them was a SEAL! Strange.

I have hunted prairie dogs in the Wyoming wind for 50 years or more. Now, every prairie dog shooter on the 'net is making 1200-1800 yard shots in a 40 knot wind, while I just feel good about making a head shot at 125 with my .22 Hornet. Strange.

I have shot a few elk. None further than 75 yards away. I have NEVER met an elk hunter that doesn't regularly shoot elk in the neck while they are on a dead run at over 500 yards. Strange.

How come I am the only gun owner in the world who does NOT own several rifles that will print one-hole groups at 200 yards all day long if I do my part? Strange.

Others here on the forum may have similar experiences, do you?
__________________

spot on!!!!!!!!!!

One of my own........

Why izzit a .30-30 can't take deer sized critters?

spaceman

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:27 pm

I read a guy dropped deer at 600 yds with at Model 29 - I did not buy it - others did.

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:04 pm

damienph wrote:Ought to be a requirement that we have our DD-214s tattood somewhere inconspicuous just to keep everybody honest; what, don't know what a DD-214 is? OK Rambo...

I tried that in the bar talk venue, where everyone is swilling beer and was a war hero in one way or another. So I tell em next week is bring in your dd 214 day. I have worked in aircraft maintence as a machinist and welder for 29 years but it don't sound as cool as a recon ranger. I just ask them how do you think the whole modern world was built. You gotta love the so called how its made shows that should be called how it,s assembled.

Bis · Post by **Bis** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:11 pm

Had a guy at work tell a viet nam net customer that he was special forces in nam for 3 years. Knowing his age, he signed up when he was 8 years old.
And as to the original post, I was an aircraft mechanic, does that count

.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:19 pm

Os,
Among some of us, extreme range hangunning is considered a sport, with some hefty wagering accompaning the festivities.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:23 pm

I have a friend. Really, a nice guy but... he feels it is absolutely necessary to tell the most outlandish stories and I once had to remind him that I was the fella who first enlisted him... I had one guy who said he was a SEAL, he'd been a Navy diver in the 1950s. I had another guy who talked about his extensive combat experience in Vietnam. He'd been a baker and never left DaNang.

As to shooting prowess, heck I work in a gun shop!

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:23 pm

Here's another one I forgot: ...
I believe my truck surely is a lemon because everyone else is getting almost 5 miles per gallon better mileage than I am with the same model truck... strange!
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Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:26 pm

There are a lot of unanswered questions in your post. As far as the SEALs remember there are two kinds. The regular kind and then the uber secret SEALs. Their acronym stands for Some Effers Always Lie.

Hard to say about your prairie dog experiences. I have shot PD's so far away that I could fire, get off my gun, light a smoke, then get behind my spotting scope to watch for the hit.

I'm not sure why you are having so much trouble getting your guns to shoot well. Most any garage sale pick up will shoot 1/2 MOA or better. Ammo doesn't really matter. Maybe you need to go to the eye doctor or something.

Sorry to hear after all these years you are still struggling to master the basics. I think you will be OK in 25 or 30 more years.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:30 pm

PaperPatch wrote:I once had a Supervisor, who had slain deer in the Colorado mountains at 600 yards with a 12 gauge slug gun.

Well, John Kerry a few years ago described how he was "pro-gun" and illustrated it with reminiscing about "crawling through the mud with his double-barrel shotgun looking for deer"...

Old Savage wrote:I read a guy dropped deer at 600 yds with at Model 29 - I did not buy it - others did.

I actually do know a guy who shot a crow at about 200 yards with a .454 Casull revolver, though. . . one of those 'casual, offhand - just shoot in the general direction' kind of things. I did the same with a feral dog at something like 225 yards with a Super Blackhawk once, after I'd had new sights installed but NOT sighted in the gun...

The guy with me was totally impressed, even though I tried to explain to him that since the gun wasn't sighted in yet, it had to be pure luck.

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:35 pm

Heck, it's rare when talking with folks that I ever find anyone who even served. Get kind of funny looks when I get the opportunity to throw in the comment that I served. Always seemed to cause a pregnant pause in the conversation. Used to surprise me,... though not any more.

However, I have been on the receiving end of plenty of "fantastical" game or target shot conversations. I'm also surprised that so few shooters sincerely know at what distances their shots are taken. Seems they always inflate distances as they don't really know how far anything really is. Also seem to get blank looks when I mention that the four antelope I've taken were each under 60 yards. And most mulies I took in NM were within pistol, or at the very most 30-30, range. Many would say I was braggin' in reverse! No brag, just fact.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:47 pm

Mescalero - how far would you bet $20 that you could hit a basketball on the first shot without know the range ahead of time or hit it say five of six times at different unknown distances?

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:58 pm

No, not on the first shot, but I have become adept at walking them in.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Yeah, we can do that to about 400 yds at our range, the bullet has to land somewhere. The test to me is a basketball on the first shot at unknown ranges. That is where a lot of it falls apart.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:28 pm

Yes, walking them in is quite possible, tho the more you do it the more often you can make first round hits at various ranges. I've made first round hits on an 18" plate at 300, but I've shot that plate a lot with that particular gun. I walked them in with a spotter at the 600 yard plate, and managed one or two hits out of 10 rds the first time I tried, tho I was cheating, using two hands and kneeling. The hits at 300 were one handed. The gun was a glock 19 with Winchester white box ammo from wal-mart. On a good ay when I was shooting a lot, I've managed 5 for 6 at 300 on an 18"w x 36"h plate with a Smith 29, and 6 for 6 on the same plate the same day with a Smith K-22. Its mainy educated guesses and practice when you do it much. Trying it a couple times doesnt give much of a picture as to what can be done if you do it regularly and over time.

Give me a few hundred rounds to practice right beforehand, since I haven't shot over a couple boxes of shells at longer distance in a year or so, and I'd try out to 300-400 yrds, but I'm not a gambler. Take that however you please.

I have no problem with Keiths claim. After shooting longer distances for a couple-3 decades, I can see what's possible. He had a spotter with a rifle scope, and was shooting at somebody elses wounded deer. I'd try the same thing under those circumstances, tho have no idea how I'd do cold turkey. I've shot with Bod Edgar a couple times years ago. He was an exhibition shooter, and all around amazing handgun shot. He did all his work one handed with a Colt Single action. I've seen him make first round hits on basketball sized rocks at 300 yards. He shot much of his game with the Colt also. It's all about practice, and a good eye and hand. I know others who have seen him hit coins thrown in the air. Remember that Bill Jordan shot multiple asprin tablets out of the air with a Smith 19. I'd probably find it hard to believe the average Joe could do that, but I certainly don't doubt that there are those that can do it. If anyone does it enough tho, and it may be a poor wager to think they can't.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:46 pm

Got a nice bull elk at 7 yards, does that count.

Always could find the real sailors at the party by dropping a bar of soap, they seem to be the first ones that bend over to pick it up

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:17 am

Hobie wrote:I have a friend. Really, a nice guy but... he feels it is absolutely necessary to tell the most outlandish stories and I once had to remind him that I was the fella who first enlisted him... I had one guy who said he was a SEAL, he'd been a Navy diver in the 1950s. :

I have a friend just like that --- he recently got out with "PTSD" (post traumatic stress disorder and an 80% disability ) --- the tales he tells are fantastic - -- so i called another friend at Ft Bragg who is the BTDT "real deal". He informed me that my buddy actually did 2 tours in Bosnia and one in Desert Storm, but anything over and above that is hooey. This was verified by my buddies wife as well when i was talking to her about his fantastic drinking binges and how to help him curb those a bit.
I don't understand why a guy who is arguably pretty accomplished , with 3 tours in hot zones, would feel he has to overinflate his service to include areas he has never been to --- he doesn't have to fib about anything, but the tall tales really degrade the actual things the man did.

On the flip side, Hobie, your diver may have a decent argument if he was a UDT (Underwater demolitions) guy from that era --- they were the early predecesors to the SEAL's.

I like the tales that come from the guys who go out of their way to not be too specific -- i've talked to plenty of guys in "black-ops" units, and "hunter-killer" squads .
Not many cooks or Supply sergeants or generator mechanics

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:24 am

Every rifle I own shoots one hole groups. Until I mess things up with a second shot.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:54 am

Canuck Bob wrote:Every rifle I own shoots one hole groups. Until I mess things up with a second shot.

--- yep, i can get a "flyer" out of a 2 shot group from time to time too

Larkbill · Post by **Larkbill** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:54 am

In my experience, the real bada$$es don't normally talk much about it.

I have a fishing buddy who I knew served in the Marines just after 'Nam in the Phillipines. What I didn't know until recently was that he was Force Recon and spent his time running around in the hills chasing commie rebels. He's pretty quiet, very funny when he does speak, but never blows his own horn.

One of my Dad's best friends was a WW2 Marine (I properly say was because he now guards the pearly gates) who went in on three landings in the Pacific starting with Guadalcanal. That's right, after surviving the hell on the 'canal when the Army took over they all got some R&R, more training and another scary boat ride. He was one of the kindest and most gentle giant burly guys you would ever want to meet. I never knew what he did in the war until my Dad suggested I talk to him while researching a term paper.

But, just to continue the thread, I keep meeting all these chaps who say they shot International class in IHMSA, but when I was shooting there was a tiny handful of shooters in this class. I'll admit it, I never shot better than AAA with any gun I owned, but at least I was consistent. And BTW I was an aviation electronics technician in the Navy, not a SEAL.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:35 am

Old Savage wrote:I read a guy dropped deer at 600 yds with at Model 29 - I did not buy it - others did.

Elmer Keith did...

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:06 am

That story has morphed. I read his account of it. He was firing away at a wounded deer. How do they know what happened at 600 yds. For that matter how did they measure 600 yds in the mountains up hill. The bullet would have been traveling at about 300 fps. In some versions it becomes a 4" barrel and the first shot. ????

OK ....

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:32 pm

Old Savage wrote:That story has morphed. I read his account of it. He was firing away at a wounded deer. How do they know what happened at 600 yds. For that matter how did they measure 600 yds in the mountains up hill. The bullet would have been traveling at about 300 fps. In some versions it becomes a 4" barrel and the first shot. ???? OK ....

I have read a couple of his books and remember well his articles. I think ol' Elmer beat his own drum quite a bit , but then, he made a good living out of it.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:14 pm

I never shot a deer over 120 yards, most within 60 yards, some under 40 yards--does that mean I can't hunt out west--oh I live out west--never mind.

I had an Uncle who was a Marine for over 30+ years, he hopped islands in the Pacific, was in the Korean War, and did one early tour in Viet Nam. He never talked about any of it, never said what he did or where he was. We only discovered his extensive combat record when we buried him two years ago at the age of 99, older family members brought it up. And his service ribbons with some photos were on display.

This experience was similar to my WWII vintage Father--my Dad only spoke of the good times and some funny stories, never about combat, except once--caught him crying when we were deer hunting--it was five months after the 50th Anniversary of D-Day. There was something about that day and where we were hunting that made him remember.

I realized one thing, those that DID, don't talk (much)--those that DIDN'T, talk too much... :)

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:28 pm

jnyork wrote:
Old Savage wrote:That story has morphed. I read his account of it. He was firing away at a wounded deer. How do they know what happened at 600 yds. For that matter how did they measure 600 yds in the mountains up hill. The bullet would have been traveling at about 300 fps. In some versions it becomes a 4" barrel and the first shot. ???? OK ....
I have read a couple of his books and remember well his articles. I think ol' Elmer beat his own drum quite a bit , but then, he made a good living out of it.

That's what bothered me about Keith. His 600 yards shots made my 500 yard moose kills with my 4" .357 pale in comparision.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:42 pm

jnyork wrote:
Old Savage wrote:That story has morphed. I read his account of it. He was firing away at a wounded deer. How do they know what happened at 600 yds. For that matter how did they measure 600 yds in the mountains up hill. The bullet would have been traveling at about 300 fps. In some versions it becomes a 4" barrel and the first shot. ???? OK ....
I have read a couple of his books and remember well his articles. I think ol' Elmer beat his own drum quite a bit , but then, he made a good living out of it.

Well, why shouldn't he? Hell, he was there!!

I like reading Keith, he sure was an opinionated grouchy old bastid, tho.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:33 pm

Old Savage wrote:Mescalero - how far would you bet $20 that you could hit a basketball on the first shot without know the range ahead of time or hit it say five of six times at different unknown distances?

Maybe 100 yards... with my gun... I ain't usin' yours. And, might still balk if not allowed to choose my own shooting position (standing, kneeling, sitting or prone)...

And it was 11 minutes... if I recall correctly. I do distinctly recall being told in no uncertain terms that minutes I didn't need to swim weren't added to the required run time! But, hecks a burnin'... I was a storekeeper... and my best friend was a cook.

Oh yeah, it's hard to duplicate the best shots I ever made... how's that song go... "I was a whole lot older then..."

bgmkithaca · Post by **bgmkithaca** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

I once worked with a chap whom claimed to kill groundhogs consistently at 1200 yards with less than 3" groups at that distance. Often wondered if he didn't have yards and inches confused. It was a Rem. 700 varmint .308 with in excess of
6,000 rounds through it according to him and a 3 x 9 scope. A true legend in his own mind.LOL

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:04 am

AJMD429 wrote:I actually do know a guy who shot a crow at about 200 yards with a .454 Casull revolver, though. . . one of those 'casual, offhand - just shoot in the general direction' kind of things. I did the same with a feral dog at something like 225 yards with a Super Blackhawk once, after I'd had new sights installed but NOT sighted in the gun... The guy with me was totally impressed, even though I tried to explain to him that since the gun wasn't sighted in yet, it had to be pure luck.

I used to drive guys crazy by regularly (3/5-4/5) ringing an 18" gong at 184yds (because that's where the gong would stand level) with my 7" Casull & .45ACP cylinder until I would give them the gun and let them do it... and they would.

Sometimes it IS the equipment more than the skillset.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:38 am

My deceased friend, the hairy eye ball; shot a buzzard at 264 long paces with a Mossberg .22lr semi auto, not something he did all the time...... but he did do it once.

Rifleman · Post by **Rifleman** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:59 am

Like I always say, "I'll never have video of hitting tiny targets at long range, if I don't put a tiny target out there."

I have plenty of one shot hits with improbable shots. Sure I have a lot of failures, like yesterday with a gun untested beyond 150 yards.

But instead of admitting defeat, today I'm going to try a one shot hit on that 4 inch target at 250 yards with my iron sighted 22lr... Yeah, I took the scope off.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:52 am

Old Savage wrote:I read a guy dropped deer at 600 yds with at Model 29 - I did not buy it - others did.

I would have bought that Model 29 in a NY minute! It had to be hand-made in the S&W custom shop.
_______
What's strange is that I have met those same former SEALS and I live on the other side of the country!

2571 · Post by **2571** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:00 am

Chief Ryback in the Steven Segall movie, Under Seige, was just a navy cook.

Based on a real incident.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:05 am

Bis wrote:Had a guy at work tell a viet nam net customer that he was special forces in nam for 3 years. Knowing his age, he signed up when he was 8 years old.
And as to the original post, I was an aircraft mechanic, does that count .

I bet you counted and were valued by the "guys" whose aircraft you maintained and repaired

Dont think I'd wanna tork off my mechanic who fixes my truck

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:11 am

2571 wrote:Chief Ryback in the Steven Segall movie, Under Seige, was just a navy cook.

Based on a real incident.

I am guessing; "loosely based"